(03-04-2015 11:28 AM)Wedge Wrote:  

(03-04-2015 11:05 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  when has there EVER been a lengthy detente in D1 realignment?

The 1980s were a dead period. We could easily see another dead period of 10 years now, given that the ACC and Big 12 have GORs.

But we'll always be able to talk about non-P5 moves, or college hockey realignment, or every conference east of the Mississippi River wanting to play their basketball tournament in NYC.

(03-04-2015 12:44 PM)bullet Wrote:  I don't think there's any way Texas could make independence in football work. I don't think they have any interest, although its likely they have explored the option. I think it would be very bad for Texas sports, just as I think Notre Dame football has been diminished, and will gradually continue to be, by remaining independent.

(03-04-2015 12:44 PM)bullet Wrote:  I don't think there's any way Texas could make independence in football work. I don't think they have any interest, although its likely they have explored the option. I think it would be very bad for Texas sports, just as I think Notre Dame football has been diminished, and will gradually continue to be, by remaining independent.

(03-04-2015 12:03 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  

(03-04-2015 11:56 AM)Lou_C Wrote:  

(03-04-2015 11:20 AM)He1nousOne Wrote:  

(03-04-2015 11:01 AM)Lou_C Wrote:  

(03-04-2015 10:18 AM)bullet Wrote:  I don't think that's his point. Notre Dame would never have considered a 5 game deal with the ACC 10 years ago. They were forced to because of:
1) scheduling difficulties in mid-season;
2) lack of access to bowl games; and
3) need for a home for Olympic sports.

Personally, I think they will find they need to join a conference for the health of their football program in the next 20 years. At that point they will have to decide whether to go with more traditional games vs. the B1G or more similar schools in the ACC. They are already playing 6 games some years in the ACC. Its not that big a stretch to get to 8.

Exactly, I'm not saying that the ACC deal was the first step of a planned full entry. It's very clear, the ACC deal was a NECESSITY in the landscape to remain viable and keep a form of independence. Just like joining the Big East was necessary at that time, and wasn't in the 60s and 70s.

Notre Dame has already shown their hand...they will do what they need to in order to remain a big time player in college sports. They have said as much on the record. It would be silly to dispute it at this point.

So you can't say "Notre Dame will never give up independence." You can only bet on "Notre Dame will never have to give up independence."

Which is true right now, and for the immediate future. They appear to have kicked that can down the road several more years. But implicit with that understanding is that it will ultimately not be up to Notre Dame whether they are independent or not.

They will (and they should) remain independent for as long as they can. It will either continue indefinitely, or it will end either:

A) When they absolutely cannot continue to function any further as an independent and go where ever they can.

or

B) They decide that the future landscape is likely to eventually lead to scenario A, and make the move while they still have maximum control over what conference they go to, how many conference games are played, who they might partner with, how much they can retain for NBC, etc.

They may run it right down to scenario A. But my gut feeling based on past moves is that they will work under the idea of scenario B. That's just based on moves over the last couple decades. For example, they could have gone to the new Big East and remained completely independent in football, or kept the same deal they had with the AAC, or probably got a deal with fewer football games or no football games with the Big 12.

But that's just my read on it, and even if so, scenario B could be 10+ years away.

Yes, I am saying that Notre Dame will never have to give up their Independence. Why am I saying that? I am saying that because soon they will have a very strong ally in that position.

I get why ACC guys want to believe otherwise but you don't really have anything that has actually happened that points to Notre Dame being pushed into that move. If that is what you want to push then you had better hope the National Playoff never expands. That would be the best situation in terms of putting that pressure on Notre Dame.

The problem with that is that would be leaving a lot of money on the table and I don't think the major powers care That much about Notre Dame anymore.

That could be. It may never happen. But how can you with a straight face say:

"you don't really have anything that has actually happened that points to Notre Dame being pushed into that move."

Really? You don't think giving up independence to join the Big East was something they were forced into? You think that was a great idea they had, something that was totally in line and consistent with their commitment to independence?

And giving 5 games a year to the ACC to join the ACC? You think that was their first offer to the ACC? You really believe that is something they wanted to do, and is totally consistent with independence?

And here's a little secret...neither of those moves were necessitated by Notre Dame being actively frozen out. They weren't barred from the NCAA tournament or the college world series as an independent. But they still had to do it...the realities of the landscape changed.

You're right that ND is never going to be proactively frozen out. There's too much money out there. If anyone cared that much about ND's independence, all the conferences could have stopped playing them and forced their hand a couple decades ago.

That doesn't have to happen. All that's required is for life to grind on and the landscape to continue to develop. All changes have been and will continue to be AGAINST what Notre Dame is trying to do.

And for the very reason you said...Notre Dame just doesn't cut the same amount of ice they once did. They're still the most valuable property in college sports, but the future will not be held back by Notre Dame's wants and desires any more. Compare the deal they got with the BCS to what they have in the playoffs.

That day might not arrive, or might not in our lifetime. But to act like Notre Dame's independence hasn't been being ground away at over the last 20 years is just disingenuous. If it continues, they will eventually be in the ACC. If they can manage to halt the runaway bus right at the precipice of the cliff, then good for them.

Notre Dame's Independent streak is about football, nothing else. So your continued point about the Big East still fails. The deal with the ACC is simply the same. It is no big deal to have 5 games against the ACC. It is good East Coast coverage and they likely would have scheduled close to that amount on an independent basis anyways when you look at the teams that make up the ACC now.

What is funny is that you ignore the fact that Notre Dame turned down the six game deal with the ACC. The ACC tried to entice them to even more and that didn't work. I am sorry but Notre Dame got exactly what they wanted so I am sorry but your little "secret" isn't a secret and isn't even that good of a point to make.


Once again, you don't have anything that points to Notre Dame being pushed fully into the ACC in football. They WANT to be in a conference for all other sports, they cut a deal with football so that they could do that. The ACC is the best choice in that regard but it isn't exactly like the ACC held all the cards in that situation. If they did then they wouldn't have agreed to the five game deal and would have pushed until they got the six game deal.

You are far too defensive and far too biased in this situation it seems. You want it too badly despite the attempt to say otherwise. I am sorry but Notre Dame is not as close to signing that dotted line as you seem to want to assert.

(03-04-2015 01:08 PM)Lou_C Wrote:  

(03-04-2015 12:03 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  

(03-04-2015 11:56 AM)Lou_C Wrote:  

(03-04-2015 11:20 AM)He1nousOne Wrote:  

(03-04-2015 11:01 AM)Lou_C Wrote:  Exactly, I'm not saying that the ACC deal was the first step of a planned full entry. It's very clear, the ACC deal was a NECESSITY in the landscape to remain viable and keep a form of independence. Just like joining the Big East was necessary at that time, and wasn't in the 60s and 70s.

Notre Dame has already shown their hand...they will do what they need to in order to remain a big time player in college sports. They have said as much on the record. It would be silly to dispute it at this point.

So you can't say "Notre Dame will never give up independence." You can only bet on "Notre Dame will never have to give up independence."

Which is true right now, and for the immediate future. They appear to have kicked that can down the road several more years. But implicit with that understanding is that it will ultimately not be up to Notre Dame whether they are independent or not.

They will (and they should) remain independent for as long as they can. It will either continue indefinitely, or it will end either:

A) When they absolutely cannot continue to function any further as an independent and go where ever they can.

or

B) They decide that the future landscape is likely to eventually lead to scenario A, and make the move while they still have maximum control over what conference they go to, how many conference games are played, who they might partner with, how much they can retain for NBC, etc.

They may run it right down to scenario A. But my gut feeling based on past moves is that they will work under the idea of scenario B. That's just based on moves over the last couple decades. For example, they could have gone to the new Big East and remained completely independent in football, or kept the same deal they had with the AAC, or probably got a deal with fewer football games or no football games with the Big 12.

But that's just my read on it, and even if so, scenario B could be 10+ years away.

Yes, I am saying that Notre Dame will never have to give up their Independence. Why am I saying that? I am saying that because soon they will have a very strong ally in that position.

I get why ACC guys want to believe otherwise but you don't really have anything that has actually happened that points to Notre Dame being pushed into that move. If that is what you want to push then you had better hope the National Playoff never expands. That would be the best situation in terms of putting that pressure on Notre Dame.

The problem with that is that would be leaving a lot of money on the table and I don't think the major powers care That much about Notre Dame anymore.

That could be. It may never happen. But how can you with a straight face say:

"you don't really have anything that has actually happened that points to Notre Dame being pushed into that move."

Really? You don't think giving up independence to join the Big East was something they were forced into? You think that was a great idea they had, something that was totally in line and consistent with their commitment to independence?

And giving 5 games a year to the ACC to join the ACC? You think that was their first offer to the ACC? You really believe that is something they wanted to do, and is totally consistent with independence?

And here's a little secret...neither of those moves were necessitated by Notre Dame being actively frozen out. They weren't barred from the NCAA tournament or the college world series as an independent. But they still had to do it...the realities of the landscape changed.

You're right that ND is never going to be proactively frozen out. There's too much money out there. If anyone cared that much about ND's independence, all the conferences could have stopped playing them and forced their hand a couple decades ago.

That doesn't have to happen. All that's required is for life to grind on and the landscape to continue to develop. All changes have been and will continue to be AGAINST what Notre Dame is trying to do.

And for the very reason you said...Notre Dame just doesn't cut the same amount of ice they once did. They're still the most valuable property in college sports, but the future will not be held back by Notre Dame's wants and desires any more. Compare the deal they got with the BCS to what they have in the playoffs.

That day might not arrive, or might not in our lifetime. But to act like Notre Dame's independence hasn't been being ground away at over the last 20 years is just disingenuous. If it continues, they will eventually be in the ACC. If they can manage to halt the runaway bus right at the precipice of the cliff, then good for them.

Notre Dame's Independent streak is about football, nothing else. So your continued point about the Big East still fails. The deal with the ACC is simply the same. It is no big deal to have 5 games against the ACC. It is good East Coast coverage and they likely would have scheduled close to that amount on an independent basis anyways when you look at the teams that make up the ACC now.

What is funny is that you ignore the fact that Notre Dame turned down the six game deal with the ACC. The ACC tried to entice them to even more and that didn't work. I am sorry but Notre Dame got exactly what they wanted so I am sorry but your little "secret" isn't a secret and isn't even that good of a point to make.


Once again, you don't have anything that points to Notre Dame being pushed fully into the ACC in football. They WANT to be in a conference for all other sports, they cut a deal with football so that they could do that. The ACC is the best choice in that regard but it isn't exactly like the ACC held all the cards in that situation. If they did then they wouldn't have agreed to the five game deal and would have pushed until they got the six game deal.

You are far too defensive and far too biased in this situation it seems. You want it too badly despite the attempt to say otherwise. I am sorry but Notre Dame is not as close to signing that dotted line as you seem to want to assert.

Haha. Notre Dame's independent streak is about football nothing else? Of course it is, NOW. Because that's all they've got left. There were plenty of people that didn't like it then, and they clearly only did it because they no longer could maintain independence in other sports.

I'm not biased...the person from the B1G calling me biased when it comes to Notre Dame?

You're asserting the landscape won't change any further, and hasn't changed in the past. That Notre Dame wasn't forced to give up pieces of it's independence already. According to you, giving up independence in all other sports, and then giving up five of 12 games of football independence are no change in Notre Dame's status of independence.

OK. Just ignore that very clearly that ND has stated they HAD to do these things in order to maintain that independence which they have left.

I have stated again and again that my position is that if the landscape continues to go the way it's gone for decades, Notre Dame could be forced to join a conference. I'm using actual things that have happened and the words of Notre Dame officials that have said the very same thing. I think it's more likely than not that they eventually will, and it won't be something as clear cut as being excluded from the playoffs. But as I said, it's not inevitable, and if it does happen I don't have strong feelings that it will be 3 years from now or 30.

You are the one predicting the future, and rewriting the past to do so.

My opinion on the future is different than yours. That's it. And it's pretty mild...that a plausible future exists where ND might be forced to join a conference...that's it. I believe mine is based on what we've seen and heard.

Yours is based on your world view where the B1G using Rutgers as a spring board to add Texas, Oklahoma, UNC, UVA, Florida, USC and the Chicago Bears and take over the world.

(03-04-2015 01:20 PM)Minutemen429 Wrote:  

(03-04-2015 01:08 PM)Lou_C Wrote:  

(03-04-2015 12:03 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  

(03-04-2015 11:56 AM)Lou_C Wrote:  

(03-04-2015 11:20 AM)He1nousOne Wrote:  Yes, I am saying that Notre Dame will never have to give up their Independence. Why am I saying that? I am saying that because soon they will have a very strong ally in that position.

I get why ACC guys want to believe otherwise but you don't really have anything that has actually happened that points to Notre Dame being pushed into that move. If that is what you want to push then you had better hope the National Playoff never expands. That would be the best situation in terms of putting that pressure on Notre Dame.

The problem with that is that would be leaving a lot of money on the table and I don't think the major powers care That much about Notre Dame anymore.

That could be. It may never happen. But how can you with a straight face say:

"you don't really have anything that has actually happened that points to Notre Dame being pushed into that move."

Really? You don't think giving up independence to join the Big East was something they were forced into? You think that was a great idea they had, something that was totally in line and consistent with their commitment to independence?

And giving 5 games a year to the ACC to join the ACC? You think that was their first offer to the ACC? You really believe that is something they wanted to do, and is totally consistent with independence?

And here's a little secret...neither of those moves were necessitated by Notre Dame being actively frozen out. They weren't barred from the NCAA tournament or the college world series as an independent. But they still had to do it...the realities of the landscape changed.

You're right that ND is never going to be proactively frozen out. There's too much money out there. If anyone cared that much about ND's independence, all the conferences could have stopped playing them and forced their hand a couple decades ago.

That doesn't have to happen. All that's required is for life to grind on and the landscape to continue to develop. All changes have been and will continue to be AGAINST what Notre Dame is trying to do.

And for the very reason you said...Notre Dame just doesn't cut the same amount of ice they once did. They're still the most valuable property in college sports, but the future will not be held back by Notre Dame's wants and desires any more. Compare the deal they got with the BCS to what they have in the playoffs.

That day might not arrive, or might not in our lifetime. But to act like Notre Dame's independence hasn't been being ground away at over the last 20 years is just disingenuous. If it continues, they will eventually be in the ACC. If they can manage to halt the runaway bus right at the precipice of the cliff, then good for them.

Notre Dame's Independent streak is about football, nothing else. So your continued point about the Big East still fails. The deal with the ACC is simply the same. It is no big deal to have 5 games against the ACC. It is good East Coast coverage and they likely would have scheduled close to that amount on an independent basis anyways when you look at the teams that make up the ACC now.

What is funny is that you ignore the fact that Notre Dame turned down the six game deal with the ACC. The ACC tried to entice them to even more and that didn't work. I am sorry but Notre Dame got exactly what they wanted so I am sorry but your little "secret" isn't a secret and isn't even that good of a point to make.


Once again, you don't have anything that points to Notre Dame being pushed fully into the ACC in football. They WANT to be in a conference for all other sports, they cut a deal with football so that they could do that. The ACC is the best choice in that regard but it isn't exactly like the ACC held all the cards in that situation. If they did then they wouldn't have agreed to the five game deal and would have pushed until they got the six game deal.

You are far too defensive and far too biased in this situation it seems. You want it too badly despite the attempt to say otherwise. I am sorry but Notre Dame is not as close to signing that dotted line as you seem to want to assert.

Haha. Notre Dame's independent streak is about football nothing else? Of course it is, NOW. Because that's all they've got left. There were plenty of people that didn't like it then, and they clearly only did it because they no longer could maintain independence in other sports.

I'm not biased...the person from the B1G calling me biased when it comes to Notre Dame?

You're asserting the landscape won't change any further, and hasn't changed in the past. That Notre Dame wasn't forced to give up pieces of it's independence already. According to you, giving up independence in all other sports, and then giving up five of 12 games of football independence are no change in Notre Dame's status of independence.

OK. Just ignore that very clearly that ND has stated they HAD to do these things in order to maintain that independence which they have left.

I have stated again and again that my position is that if the landscape continues to go the way it's gone for decades, Notre Dame could be forced to join a conference. I'm using actual things that have happened and the words of Notre Dame officials that have said the very same thing. I think it's more likely than not that they eventually will, and it won't be something as clear cut as being excluded from the playoffs. But as I said, it's not inevitable, and if it does happen I don't have strong feelings that it will be 3 years from now or 30.

You are the one predicting the future, and rewriting the past to do so.

My opinion on the future is different than yours. That's it. And it's pretty mild...that a plausible future exists where ND might be forced to join a conference...that's it. I believe mine is based on what we've seen and heard.

Yours is based on your world view where the B1G using Rutgers as a spring board to add Texas, Oklahoma, UNC, UVA, Florida, USC and the Chicago Bears and take over the world.

Then who gives hoot about 30+ years from now.

(03-04-2015 02:00 PM)mac6115cd Wrote:  I can see ND joining the ACC as a full member for a couple of reasons:

1. More Money
2. An easier path to the CFP

Currently, ND has to go undefeated for a CFP slot (1 loss may be too many). For them, it's easier to win the ACC, especially if the CFP expands to 6-8 teams.

ND will join a conference when it benefits them - not before.

(03-04-2015 01:35 PM)bluesox Wrote:  I don't see what the problem for ND would be with this setup

ACC

Clem, GTech, FSU, Miami

UNC, Duke, UVA, Vtech

NC state, Wake, Cincy, Lville

BC, Cuse, Pitt, ND

Format 3-2-2-2. ND plays a 3-1-1-1 format for 6 games. BYU or Navy plays a 1-1-1 format. Yet, i don't think it would be crazy for the ACC just to pop in byu as football only after getting cincy to join. The comments by the byu AD and the acc granting byu games might be the smoke. BYU would just be a caretaker for ND spot if ND felt the landscape required them to join. I don't believe NAVY has the type of program to play a full acc set of games + ND + ARMY and AFA…they might play a couple ACC games though.

(03-04-2015 02:04 PM)Dasville Wrote:  Which is more plausible, ND fully joins ACC or NBC hosts the ACC Network?

(03-04-2015 12:47 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(03-04-2015 12:44 PM)bullet Wrote:  I don't think there's any way Texas could make independence in football work. I don't think they have any interest, although its likely they have explored the option. I think it would be very bad for Texas sports, just as I think Notre Dame football has been diminished, and will gradually continue to be, by remaining independent.

We disagree here. I think that ND football, to the extent it was "diminished", was because of a series of bad coaching hires and an administration that was content to cash the football checks but felt guilty about going "all in" as a "football factory".

I don't think that conference membership had a thing to do with it.

(03-04-2015 03:43 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(03-04-2015 12:47 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(03-04-2015 12:44 PM)bullet Wrote:  I don't think there's any way Texas could make independence in football work. I don't think they have any interest, although its likely they have explored the option. I think it would be very bad for Texas sports, just as I think Notre Dame football has been diminished, and will gradually continue to be, by remaining independent.

We disagree here. I think that ND football, to the extent it was "diminished", was because of a series of bad coaching hires and an administration that was content to cash the football checks but felt guilty about going "all in" as a "football factory".

I don't think that conference membership had a thing to do with it.

There's certainly an argument for that, but it lasted 20 years from Holtz to Kelly. That's a lot of bad decisions for a program of ND's caliber. Davie and Willingham had some success elsewhere. I think the environment changed. And Notre Dame had to face being a key game in everyone's schedule without the motivation of a conference championship themselves.