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Brexit Vote - westsidewolf1989 - 06-23-2016 07:02 PM
Looks to be a close vote - pound to USD has been swinging up and down the last few hours. Fun times if you happen to be a currency trader
RE: Brexit Vote - ExcitedOwl18 - 06-23-2016 10:55 PM
They're leaving!
RE: Brexit Vote - Owl 69/70/75 - 06-24-2016 05:53 AM
I have mixed emotions. I think they've made a mistake. But I also think that the EU government has way overstepped its bounds. I don't see a way to reconcile the two.
RE: Brexit Vote - westsidewolf1989 - 06-24-2016 09:21 AM
(06-24-2016 05:53 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: I have mixed emotions. I think they've made a mistake. But I also think that the EU government has way overstepped its bounds. I don't see a way to reconcile the two.
Agreed
RE: Brexit Vote - JustAnotherAustinOwl - 06-24-2016 09:38 AM
David Cameron may go down as the man who hastened the end of the UK. Fully expect Scotland to vote for independence once the UK's departure is formalized, don't know what will happen with NI, but the status quo there can't really hold.
Of course until Article 50 is invoked, the UK hasn't legally taken any steps to withdraw, at least from the EU perspective. I'm not predicting it, but if 5 years from now the UK is still in the EU, it wouldn't completely shock me.
Also have seen articles arguing that if Scotland leaves the UK, London should too. Not likely, but the point was that London has a bigger economy and more people than Scotland, and is very closely tied to Europe.
And Boris Johnson might be PM by end of the year...
Crazy.
RE: Brexit Vote - Antarius - 06-24-2016 11:28 AM
(06-24-2016 05:53 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: I have mixed emotions. I think they've made a mistake. But I also think that the EU government has way overstepped its bounds. I don't see a way to reconcile the two.
The danger of democracy is that a majority supporting stupid decisions doesn't make the decision right.
RE: Brexit Vote - RiceLad15 - 06-24-2016 01:39 PM
(06-24-2016 11:28 AM)Antarius Wrote:(06-24-2016 05:53 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: I have mixed emotions. I think they've made a mistake. But I also think that the EU government has way overstepped its bounds. I don't see a way to reconcile the two.
The danger of democracy is that a majority supporting stupid decisions doesn't make the decision right.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/06/24/the-british-are-frantically-googling-what-the-eu-is-hours-after-voting-to-leave-it/
RE: Brexit Vote - Antarius - 06-24-2016 02:35 PM
(06-24-2016 01:39 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:(06-24-2016 11:28 AM)Antarius Wrote:(06-24-2016 05:53 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: I have mixed emotions. I think they've made a mistake. But I also think that the EU government has way overstepped its bounds. I don't see a way to reconcile the two.
The danger of democracy is that a majority supporting stupid decisions doesn't make the decision right.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/06/24/the-british-are-frantically-googling-what-the-eu-is-hours-after-voting-to-leave-it/
Yeah. Saw that. Facepalm
RE: Brexit Vote - JustAnotherAustinOwl - 06-25-2016 06:44 AM
The breakdown by age is pretty stark:
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/brexit-referendum/britain-s-brexit-how-baby-boomers-defeated-millennials-historic-vote-n598481
Basically people under 50 wanted to remain, especially millennials. They basically had this forced on them by a bunch of bitter, resentful old people, and will have to live with it long after the "Leave" voters are gone. Oversimplification, but a lot of truth to it...
Edit: Lest anyone be offended, I'm pretty close to qualifying as "old" in this case, and probably already do from a millennial's perspective. ;-)
RE: Brexit Vote - Owl 69/70/75 - 06-25-2016 07:10 AM
I don't think this nearly as much about racism as it is about the EU Eurocrats meddling too much in internal affairs of member nations, where they don't belong. The problem on both sides of the pond is that governments have been busy working not for the people, but to perpetuate themselves and increase their powers, intruding into far too many places that they don't belong. Government doesn't belong in bedrooms, nor in vaginas, nor in picking winners and losers in the economy. Government needs to get back to being of the people, by the people, and for the people, instead of becoming increasingly for the bureaucrats, by the bureaucrats, and of the bureaucrats. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Wealth chases power, and power chases wealth, which is why we and Europe have both become increasingly corporatist states. We need more power returned from government to people. Within the government sphere, we need more power devolved from federal to state level, and from state to local level. And at each level, we need more power returned from executive bureaucracies to legislative branches. This vote is about Europe needing that. But we need it here, as well.
RE: Brexit Vote - georgewebb - 06-25-2016 08:44 AM
(06-25-2016 06:44 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote: The breakdown by age is pretty stark:
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/brexit-referendum/britain-s-brexit-how-baby-boomers-defeated-millennials-historic-vote-n598481
Basically people under 50 wanted to remain, especially millennials. They basically had this forced on them by a bunch of bitter, resentful old people, and will have to live with it long after the "Leave" voters are gone.
How dare those old people vote! Who do they think they are? Don't they know that young people know everything? Heck, they will tell you so themselves...
RE: Brexit Vote - georgewebb - 06-25-2016 08:49 AM
(06-25-2016 07:10 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: I don't think this nearly as much about racism as it is about the EU Eurocrats meddling too much in internal affairs of member nations, where they don't belong. The problem on both sides of the pond is that governments have been busy working not for the people, but to perpetuate themselves and increase their powers, intruding into far too many places that they don't belong. Government doesn't belong in bedrooms, nor in vaginas, nor in picking winners and losers in the economy. Government needs to get back to being of the people, by the people, and for the people, instead of becoming increasingly for the bureaucrats, by the bureaucrats, and of the bureaucrats. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Wealth chases power, and power chases wealth, which is why we and Europe have both become increasingly corporatist states.
It is a never-ending irony that the people who most indignantly decry the influence of money upon government seem simultaneously determined to magnify the influence of government upon money.
RE: Brexit Vote - georgewebb - 06-25-2016 08:55 AM
(06-25-2016 07:10 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: I don't think this nearly as much about racism as it is about the EU Eurocrats meddling too much in internal affairs of member nations, where they don't belong.
Chip, you're obviously wrong. Any position that the left-leaning blogosphere disapproves of is necessarily and solely about racism. If you don't realize that -- well, that's because you're racist. And since accusations of racism are non-falsifiable, you can't even rebut the accusation. See how neat it all is?
RE: Brexit Vote - RiceLad15 - 06-25-2016 10:51 AM
(06-25-2016 08:44 AM)georgewebb Wrote:(06-25-2016 06:44 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote: The breakdown by age is pretty stark:
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/brexit-referendum/britain-s-brexit-how-baby-boomers-defeated-millennials-historic-vote-n598481
Basically people under 50 wanted to remain, especially millennials. They basically had this forced on them by a bunch of bitter, resentful old people, and will have to live with it long after the "Leave" voters are gone.
How dare those old people vote! Who do they think they are? Don't they know that young people know everything? Heck, they will tell you so themselves...
Everyone of every age should have the right to vote and have equal say. But I did find it interesting that the division was so stark between the older and the younger generations. And what's so interesting about it, is that inherently, the younger generation are much more affected by the outcome of the vote. Not only do they have to live with the results the longest, but they are the generation that becomes more constrained. The older generation are set, they won't be moving, won't be working - they will be living in the UK, and that's about it. Now the younger generation will have to deal with any new hurdles that this places on them working "abroad" and creating a life in the EU, but not in the UK, if desired.
Now, who knows if there will be any additional hurdles created to free movement/living between the UK and the remaining EU countries, but your appearing dismissal of the greater influence that the decision will have on the youth of the UK is just as bad as the previous comments apparent disdain for the older voters wielding more influence.
RE: Brexit Vote - OptimisticOwl - 06-25-2016 12:33 PM
(06-25-2016 10:51 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:(06-25-2016 08:44 AM)georgewebb Wrote:(06-25-2016 06:44 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote: The breakdown by age is pretty stark:
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/brexit-referendum/britain-s-brexit-how-baby-boomers-defeated-millennials-historic-vote-n598481
Basically people under 50 wanted to remain, especially millennials. They basically had this forced on them by a bunch of bitter, resentful old people, and will have to live with it long after the "Leave" voters are gone.
How dare those old people vote! Who do they think they are? Don't they know that young people know everything? Heck, they will tell you so themselves...
Everyone of every age should have the right to vote and have equal say. But I did find it interesting that the division was so stark between the older and the younger generations. And what's so interesting about it, is that inherently, the younger generation are much more affected by the outcome of the vote. Not only do they have to live with the results the longest, but they are the generation that becomes more constrained. The older generation are set, they won't be moving, won't be working - they will be living in the UK, and that's about it. Now the younger generation will have to deal with any new hurdles that this places on them working "abroad" and creating a life in the EU, but not in the UK, if desired.
Now, who knows if there will be any additional hurdles created to free movement/living between the UK and the remaining EU countries, but your appearing dismissal of the greater influence that the decision will have on the youth of the UK is just as bad as the previous comments apparent disdain for the older voters wielding more influence.
What is needed is a sliding scale. Give voters 18-29 1.5 votes, 30-39 1.3 votes, 40-49 1.1 votes, 50-59 0.9 votes, and 60+ 0.7 votes. That way the preponderance will be toward those most affected.
RE: Brexit Vote - Antarius - 06-25-2016 01:36 PM
IMO, there should be a 3 or so question quiz. Failure to answer questions such as what is the EU or select 3 salient points of the EU invalidates your vote.
Knowing what you are voting for should be a requirement.
RE: Brexit Vote - OptimisticOwl - 06-25-2016 02:32 PM
(06-25-2016 01:36 PM)Antarius Wrote: IMO, there should be a 3 or so question quiz. Failure to answer questions such as what is the EU or select 3 salient points of the EU invalidates your vote.
Knowing what you are voting for should be a requirement.
I have often thought this of the US of A, but get shouted down.
Does anybody know what it was about the EU that bothered older voters more than younger ones?
RE: Brexit Vote - RiceLad15 - 06-25-2016 05:19 PM
(06-25-2016 02:32 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:(06-25-2016 01:36 PM)Antarius Wrote: IMO, there should be a 3 or so question quiz. Failure to answer questions such as what is the EU or select 3 salient points of the EU invalidates your vote.
Knowing what you are voting for should be a requirement.
I have often thought this of the US of A, but get shouted down.
Does anybody know what it was about the EU that bothered older voters more than younger ones?
Likely some silly idea that the EU was the reason that British life was changing or something of that nature.
Listening to interviews on the radio, most people talked about immigration or regulation being the main reason for opting to leave, but I've read/watched items that suggest that leaving the EU will not affect either of those significantly (especially regulation, since anything exported to other EU countries will need to meet EU regulations).
RE: Brexit Vote - georgewebb - 06-25-2016 05:53 PM
(06-25-2016 12:33 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: What is needed is a sliding scale. Give voters 18-29 1.5 votes, 30-39 1.3 votes, 40-49 1.1 votes, 50-59 0.9 votes, and 60+ 0.7 votes. That way the preponderance will be toward those most affected.
You've got the scale exactly backward. Giving preference to the opinions of people in their teens and twenties is about the surest prescription for disaster I've ever read.
RE: Brexit Vote - georgewebb - 06-25-2016 06:15 PM
(06-25-2016 10:51 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:I did not, and do not, dismiss the theory that the decision will have greater impact on the young. I dismiss the theory that that matters in whose opinion should have the most weight. Youth, by definition, is inexperienced, and in politics especially, young voters have shown time and again that they don't always know what they're doing (the swoon for Obama in 2008 being one fairly clear example). The perspective of experience -- of people who have had careers and raised families, who have seen human folly as well as a human greatness -- should not count for less than the self-interest of backpackers.(06-25-2016 08:44 AM)georgewebb Wrote:(06-25-2016 06:44 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote: The breakdown by age is pretty stark:
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/brexit-referendum/britain-s-brexit-how-baby-boomers-defeated-millennials-historic-vote-n598481
Basically people under 50 wanted to remain, especially millennials. They basically had this forced on them by a bunch of bitter, resentful old people, and will have to live with it long after the "Leave" voters are gone.
How dare those old people vote! Who do they think they are? Don't they know that young people know everything? Heck, they will tell you so themselves...
Everyone of every age should have the right to vote and have equal say. But I did find it interesting that the division was so stark between the older and the younger generations. And what's so interesting about it, is that inherently, the younger generation are much more affected by the outcome of the vote. Not only do they have to live with the results the longest, but they are the generation that becomes more constrained. The older generation are set, they won't be moving, won't be working - they will be living in the UK, and that's about it. Now the younger generation will have to deal with any new hurdles that this places on them working "abroad" and creating a life in the EU, but not in the UK, if desired.
Now, who knows if there will be any additional hurdles created to free movement/living between the UK and the remaining EU countries, but your appearing dismissal of the greater influence that the decision will have on the youth of the UK is just as bad as the previous comments apparent disdain for the older voters wielding more influence.
Moreover, it is entirely reasonable that those Britons who are old and wise enough to remember war (both hot and cold), to have seen the deluded statist "isms" of the last century, to have a sense of just how shallow the roots of liberty can be outside the Blessed Plot and its common-law descendants, might just feel that the bureaus of Continental Europe -- the land of popes and commissars, of guillotines and gas chambers -- are a less reliable protector of the common weal than are the House of Commons and the English Channel. Youth -- famous for its inattention to history and to risk -- may have a different theory, but it is not a better or more important one.