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+---- Thread: What's wrong with Wichita State Basketball? (/thread-840812.html)
RE: What's wrong with Wichita State Basketball? - pesik - 01-23-2018 12:44 PM
(01-23-2018 11:54 AM)ShockerFever Wrote:(01-23-2018 11:36 AM)Coog Engineer Wrote: Well if you start off with the premise that Shocktop was really that good, and the two teams SMU and UH were that bad, then it does beg the question of "what's wrong with WSU".
But Occam's Razor (simplest answer is usually the correct one) contends that premise is total BS.
WSU wasn't that good, and SMU and UH weren't that bad.
At some point, y'all need to exit that denial stage.
So Top 10 teams aren’t allowed to have 2-game skids?
Got it.
and struggled with tulsa and uconn...with the only 2 decent regular seasons wins you have had in 2 years you shot over 60% from 3
if im honest wichita is a tourney caliber team, you arent a top 10 caliber team
i said this earlier, good teams bring out your flaws...the more good teams you play the more film there is of your flaws..
i think wsu flaws have been put in the fore front..there is now scout film on how to beat you..
i know the narrative from wsu is we are playing bad...or smu got lucky..
when it should be teams are figuring us out
if you watched the houston game and familiar with what we do, their was definitely strategy in how we played ..Houston didnt play vanbeck who regular does 20 mins per for us, likely because he couldn't pressure your guards...we didnt play harris or fabian (taller skinnier big men) who are our #2 and #3 center but instead played brady and zanna who are more muscler. zanna hadnt played meaningful minutes in 7-8 games..if not for being fouled out this would have the most minutes he played all season.
Sampson came in with a plan to exploit things he saw about Wichita
RE: What's wrong with Wichita State Basketball? - pesik - 01-23-2018 12:52 PM
(01-23-2018 12:21 PM)HuskyU Wrote:(01-23-2018 12:03 PM)stxrunner Wrote: This thread should be called 'What's wrong with WSU fans?'.
The answer to that questions is nothing, they just aren't used to losing. They aren't used to losing for 2 reasons. 1) They have a really good program and 2) They played in the MVC.
So of course they lose two in the row and think the sky is falling. This is how it works. If UC or WSU were playing in the ACC or Big 12, we'd be put in a position like UNC losing at VTech last night, panicking, and asking what's wrong with our team. The truth is sometimes teams just play bad, especially on the road.
But Wichita didn't play bad. SMU and Houston just had the games of their lives.
what??? houston didnt even play that well...we came out blank from 3 the first half...this was the first game all season we won despite being out rebounded. we went 5-20 from 3 and plenty of them were wide open..gray a 80% free throw shooter went 2-5 from the line ...or starting center played 4 minutes total from extremely quick 4 fouls .. the other big man we planned to use fouled out
if houston was making shots it regularly does this would have been an absolute destruction...
this wasnt the game of our lives
RE: What's wrong with Wichita State Basketball? - C0|db|00ded - 01-23-2018 01:05 PM
(01-23-2018 09:55 AM)nafstrops Wrote: This has to be the dumbest thread ever. No one one here cares if there is anything wrong with WSU. If there is, they don't care what it is. This is a Shocker.net thread. Opposing fans just want to beat the **** out of all the other teams!
No backseat driving out of you bucko!
Based on your display of outrage and dismay, you have no idea what destination I set on the old csnbbs.com GPS therefore you likely have no bearing on the direction either. I don't drive as the crow flies son.
I suggest you just sit back and enjoy the ride. I'm gonna drive this bus of confusion straight through Pleasuretown, making a brief stop at Trollapalooza, then we're heading on up to Emerald City because I'm off to see the fking wizard.
P.S. I fly you buy
T
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RE: What's wrong with Wichita State Basketball? - HuskyU - 01-23-2018 01:14 PM
(01-23-2018 01:05 PM)C0|db|00ded Wrote:(01-23-2018 09:55 AM)nafstrops Wrote: This has to be the dumbest thread ever. No one one here cares if there is anything wrong with WSU. If there is, they don't care what it is. This is a Shocker.net thread. Opposing fans just want to beat the **** out of all the other teams!
No backseat driving out of you bucko!
Based on your display of outrage and dismay, you have no idea what destination I set on the old csnbbs.com GPS therefore you likely have no bearing on the direction either. I don't drive as the crow flies son.
I suggest you just sit back and enjoy the ride. I'm gonna drive this bus of confusion straight through Pleasuretown, making a brief stop at Trollapalooza, then we're heading on up to Emerald City because I'm off to see the fking wizard.
P.S. I fly you buy
T
...
Is Diaco your ghostwriter?
RE: What's wrong with Wichita State Basketball? - ShockerFever - 01-23-2018 01:25 PM
(01-23-2018 12:43 PM)Coog Engineer Wrote:(01-23-2018 12:28 PM)ShockerFever Wrote:(01-23-2018 12:21 PM)HuskyU Wrote:(01-23-2018 12:03 PM)stxrunner Wrote: This thread should be called 'What's wrong with WSU fans?'.
The answer to that questions is nothing, they just aren't used to losing. They aren't used to losing for 2 reasons. 1) They have a really good program and 2) They played in the MVC.
So of course they lose two in the row and think the sky is falling. This is how it works. If UC or WSU were playing in the ACC or Big 12, we'd be put in a position like UNC losing at VTech last night, panicking, and asking what's wrong with our team. The truth is sometimes teams just play bad, especially on the road.
But Wichita didn't play bad. SMU and Houston just had the games of their lives.
I will say we played putrid for the Houston game.
As far as the SMU game goes, I think only a handful of teams would’ve been able to beat them that night.
Well I agree y'all didn't look great last saturday, it was obvious ya'll weren't playing your best. But if you're refusing to acknowledge the UH defense had something to do with it then you're just being obstinate.
When I watched the replay on espn3, even the announcers were praising the tough Coog defense, giving it all the credit for shutting down WSU.
I don’t think I brought up the Houston defense. Is Houston typically known for their defense?
Regardless, yes they played good D and yes it was a factor.
RE: What's wrong with Wichita State Basketball? - ShockerFever - 01-23-2018 01:27 PM
(01-23-2018 12:44 PM)pesik Wrote:(01-23-2018 11:54 AM)ShockerFever Wrote:(01-23-2018 11:36 AM)Coog Engineer Wrote: Well if you start off with the premise that Shocktop was really that good, and the two teams SMU and UH were that bad, then it does beg the question of "what's wrong with WSU".
But Occam's Razor (simplest answer is usually the correct one) contends that premise is total BS.
WSU wasn't that good, and SMU and UH weren't that bad.
At some point, y'all need to exit that denial stage.
So Top 10 teams aren’t allowed to have 2-game skids?
Got it.
and struggled with tulsa and uconn...with the only 2 decent regular seasons wins you have had in 2 years you shot over 60% from 3
if im honest wichita is a tourney caliber team, you arent a top 10 caliber team
i said this earlier, good teams bring out your flaws...the more good teams you play the more film there is of your flaws..
i think wsu flaws have been put in the fore front..there is now scout film on how to beat you..
i know the narrative from wsu is we are playing bad...or smu got lucky..
when it should be teams are figuring us out
if you watched the houston game and familiar with what we do, their was definitely strategy in how we played ..Houston didnt play vanbeck who regular does 20 mins per for us, likely because he couldn't pressure your guards...we didnt play harris or fabian (taller skinnier big men) who are our #2 and #3 center but instead played brady and zanna who are more muscler. zanna hadnt played meaningful minutes in 7-8 games..if not for being fouled out this would have the most minutes he played all season.
Sampson came in with a plan to exploit things he saw about Wichita
Is Houston good? Do you think they’re a better team than WSU?
RE: What's wrong with Wichita State Basketball? - C0|db|00ded - 01-23-2018 01:39 PM
(01-23-2018 08:07 AM)Tiger1983 Wrote: First, I wish the Tigers had WSU’s “problem”.
I think the main causes of WSU’s problem (to the extent one exists) are increased competition and relative lack of talent. WSU only has two 4 stars on the roster and (correct me if I am wrong Shocker fans) no likely future NBA player. When the Tigers were relevant, we usually overwhelmed opponents with talent on the off nights all teams experience. WSU does not have the that luxury, IMO.
That is a legit theory but I have problems with it. Here is Verbalcommits.com's current recruit ranking comparison of teams in the AAC:
![[Image: 30l2n4h.png]](http://i67.tinypic.com/30l2n4h.png)
http://www.verbalcommits.com/conferences/american
As you can see, Wichita State is virtually tied with Tulane for 5th and extremely close to SMU for 4th.
Obviously we all know recruiting rankings are nearly totally bogus except at the very highest levels - and even then they can be way off. Gregg Marshall is known to be one of the best recruiters in the nation with regards to finding "diamonds in the rough". Add in the fact that we've owned just about every blue blood program in the country with our "low-talent" roster over the last 5 years (save for Kentucky), and you must reinterpret the rules of the game - at least when dealing with the Shockers. Also, we lost to Kentucky by an average of 2.5 pts. the last two times we've played them. We achieved that result with nearly the exact same Verbalcommits score we have now - in fact, I think it was lower.
So I'm going to have to DENY your hypothesis yet thank you greatly for your honest opinion. I do agree that if we had Gregg Marshall-type players with Kentucky-like talent, we would be unstoppable. Unfortunately though, Gregg Marshall-type players having Kentucky-like talent is a paradox. Blue chip recruits have been told they are the best all their lives. Those type of players would never work on a Gregg Marshall team.
T
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RE: What's wrong with Wichita State Basketball? - HuskyU - 01-23-2018 01:41 PM
^ Sampson is a good coach.
RE: What's wrong with Wichita State Basketball? - C0|db|00ded - 01-23-2018 01:47 PM
(01-23-2018 08:53 AM)DownEastPirate Wrote: It's only two losses but the season is starting to wear on them, a tough OOC paired with a major step up night in and night out in the American is beginning to take it's toll. There is much more talented depth in this league.
Still tied for second place in a good league though, not the end of the world.
I think it just seems worse than it is because most WSU fans came here thinking you were going to roll over this league and win it outright in year one. Which was never going to happen.
I do appreciate the fact that a VERY tough OOC schedule can weigh on a team's ability to stay mentally focused - ESPECIALLY when the difficulty of the games dropped off as much as they did when we started conference play.
Wichita State fans thinking they were going to roll this league was based on the total majority of national basketball experts saying exactly the same. In fact, the only opinion I found contradicting the national theme was the coaches poll in this league which obviously gets thrown out due to bias.
Make no mistake, our current "hiccup" is a major national news story and will continue to be one unless we turn it around and win out.
T
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RE: What's wrong with Wichita State Basketball? - SadderBudweiser - 01-23-2018 01:56 PM
(01-23-2018 01:47 PM)C0|db|00ded Wrote:(01-23-2018 08:53 AM)DownEastPirate Wrote: It's only two losses but the season is starting to wear on them, a tough OOC paired with a major step up night in and night out in the American is beginning to take it's toll. There is much more talented depth in this league.
Still tied for second place in a good league though, not the end of the world.
I think it just seems worse than it is because most WSU fans came here thinking you were going to roll over this league and win it outright in year one. Which was never going to happen.
I do appreciate the fact that a VERY tough OOC schedule can weigh on a team's ability to stay mentally focused - ESPECIALLY when the difficulty of the games dropped off as much as they did when we started conference play.
Wichita State fans thinking they were going to roll this league was based on the total majority of national basketball experts saying exactly the same. In fact, the only opinion I found contradicting the national theme was the coaches poll in this league which obviously gets thrown out due to bias.
Make no mistake, our current "hiccup" is a major national news story and will continue to be one unless we turn it around and win out.
T
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Correction: it is a MID major national new story.
RE: What's wrong with Wichita State Basketball? - C0|db|00ded - 01-23-2018 02:02 PM
(01-23-2018 09:56 AM)ECBrad Wrote:(01-23-2018 09:55 AM)nafstrops Wrote: This has to be the dumbest thread ever. No one one here cares if there is anything wrong with WSU. If there is, they don't care what it is. This is a Shocker.net thread. Opposing fans just want to beat the **** out of all the other teams!
Actually ECU's operating budget is in the red right now so we need you out there working hard producing NCAA credits. That's why I care... please get better soon!
It's comments like these that really pull on old CB's heart strings. The Shockers were asked to come to the AAC to play Robin Hood - stealing from the rich and giving to the poor. American Basketball was stale, stagnant, and with UConn and Memphis in the dumpster, showing serious signs of instability (and that's saying a lot considering the AAC's history).
I envisioned Wichita State coming into this league and not only improving it's own lot in life, but lifting up some great old battleships that had been taking on water and were now dangerously listing to one side. I don't think my vision was unrealistic. We were coming into the league top 10 in the country, national networks were claiming the American was now a power conference due to our inclusion, we had a tremendous record in the NCAA tournament earned over many years not just a Cinderella season, but...
The problem is not "just two losses" as some on here have attempted to console us with, it's the progression of angry-less play we have witnessed since Tulsa and maybe even beyond that. The SMU game was a loser fair and square as AndShock so aptly pointed out (Leprechauns and such), but I still think we could have won at home if we would have gotten more physical on Shake (I'm talkin' hard fouls son). The capitulation point was Houston when we got slapped around like a bunch of baby seals. Shocker fans haven't seen that many times in the last decade against a team of Houston's caliber (MVC'ish).
T
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RE: What's wrong with Wichita State Basketball? - C0|db|00ded - 01-23-2018 02:15 PM
(01-23-2018 11:36 AM)Coog Engineer Wrote: Well if you start off with the premise that Shocktop was really that good, and the two teams SMU and UH were that bad, then it does beg the question of "what's wrong with WSU".
But Occam's Razor (simplest answer is usually the correct one) contends that premise is total BS.
WSU wasn't that good, and SMU and UH weren't that bad.
At some point, y'all need to exit that denial stage.
You'll have to define the parameters of "not that good". If you are saying that Wichita State (Shocktop) - on that night - wasn't that good when they barely escaped Tulsa, got smoked by SMU, and bludgeoned by Houston, you'll find me heartily agreeing with you.
The point where I and many of the generous contributors in this thread part ways is when you are attempting to make a summary judgment about Wichita State based on those losses. Instead of calling it an aberrant executional failure, something the entire national media claims save for one Jon Rothstein, some have said that Wichita State is just not that good... comparatively speaking. That's not going to pass muster considering the measuring stick by which Wichita State has been judged over the last half decade or so against FAR superior programs than exist in the AAC currently.
T
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RE: What's wrong with Wichita State Basketball? - pesik - 01-23-2018 02:23 PM
(01-23-2018 01:27 PM)ShockerFever Wrote:(01-23-2018 12:44 PM)pesik Wrote:(01-23-2018 11:54 AM)ShockerFever Wrote:(01-23-2018 11:36 AM)Coog Engineer Wrote: Well if you start off with the premise that Shocktop was really that good, and the two teams SMU and UH were that bad, then it does beg the question of "what's wrong with WSU".
But Occam's Razor (simplest answer is usually the correct one) contends that premise is total BS.
WSU wasn't that good, and SMU and UH weren't that bad.
At some point, y'all need to exit that denial stage.
So Top 10 teams aren’t allowed to have 2-game skids?
Got it.
and struggled with tulsa and uconn...with the only 2 decent regular seasons wins you have had in 2 years you shot over 60% from 3
if im honest wichita is a tourney caliber team, you arent a top 10 caliber team
i said this earlier, good teams bring out your flaws...the more good teams you play the more film there is of your flaws..
i think wsu flaws have been put in the fore front..there is now scout film on how to beat you..
i know the narrative from wsu is we are playing bad...or smu got lucky..
when it should be teams are figuring us out
if you watched the houston game and familiar with what we do, their was definitely strategy in how we played ..Houston didnt play vanbeck who regular does 20 mins per for us, likely because he couldn't pressure your guards...we didnt play harris or fabian (taller skinnier big men) who are our #2 and #3 center but instead played brady and zanna who are more muscler. zanna hadnt played meaningful minutes in 7-8 games..if not for being fouled out this would have the most minutes he played all season.
Sampson came in with a plan to exploit things he saw about Wichita
Is Houston good? Do you think they’re a better team than WSU?
that is a loaded question..with different answers depending on how you define it
who would win in game?
both teams are so reliant on the 3 ball. it really depends who is hot
who has more talent and is deepers?
if im honest i thinks its houston and not all that close...
i know the running joke is that wichitas backups would win a ton of games in the aac but thats far from reality
shamet is the top of the list between both school becuase of height and talent...but remove morris and shamet, theres nothing special about the rest of them (mcduffies gets put in the idk pile, he was special last year but not significant in the games ive watched this season)..beyond those 3, youll find find players like the one you have in every aac roster, theyd all look like wsu with marshall as coach
houston rotates 10 as is, and while red-shirting a players we expected to start (cedric alley, who won texas Mr Basketball last year) soley becuase he missed the 1st week of the season (and 2 months prior practice) to an injury and sampson said rotating too many players is bad for defensive chemistry and didnt want to waste time figuring out the chemistry with him..so we now have a projected starter on the bench not playing
if i had to pick houston or wichita to play an elite team tomorrow?
wichita EASY..i think houston has more talent but your an experienced team returning 9 from last year...8 of houstons players just joined this season. we are a clumsy team still figuring it out
houston is good as is but still developing and getting better
RE: What's wrong with Wichita State Basketball? - payday - 01-23-2018 02:25 PM
(01-23-2018 01:27 PM)ShockerFever Wrote:(01-23-2018 12:44 PM)pesik Wrote:(01-23-2018 11:54 AM)ShockerFever Wrote:(01-23-2018 11:36 AM)Coog Engineer Wrote: Well if you start off with the premise that Shocktop was really that good, and the two teams SMU and UH were that bad, then it does beg the question of "what's wrong with WSU".
But Occam's Razor (simplest answer is usually the correct one) contends that premise is total BS.
WSU wasn't that good, and SMU and UH weren't that bad.
At some point, y'all need to exit that denial stage.
So Top 10 teams aren’t allowed to have 2-game skids?
Got it.
and struggled with tulsa and uconn...with the only 2 decent regular seasons wins you have had in 2 years you shot over 60% from 3
if im honest wichita is a tourney caliber team, you arent a top 10 caliber team
i said this earlier, good teams bring out your flaws...the more good teams you play the more film there is of your flaws..
i think wsu flaws have been put in the fore front..there is now scout film on how to beat you..
i know the narrative from wsu is we are playing bad...or smu got lucky..
when it should be teams are figuring us out
if you watched the houston game and familiar with what we do, their was definitely strategy in how we played ..Houston didnt play vanbeck who regular does 20 mins per for us, likely because he couldn't pressure your guards...we didnt play harris or fabian (taller skinnier big men) who are our #2 and #3 center but instead played brady and zanna who are more muscler. zanna hadnt played meaningful minutes in 7-8 games..if not for being fouled out this would have the most minutes he played all season.
Sampson came in with a plan to exploit things he saw about Wichita
Is Houston good? Do you think they’re a better team than WSU?
Same conference and overall record with better wins. Yes UH is better.
RE: What's wrong with Wichita State Basketball? - ShockerFever - 01-23-2018 02:26 PM
So Houston is good and seeeingly on par to Wichita State.
Well since you had fun picking apart WSU’s games and resume...
Drexel. That’s it. Nothing comes close or epically bad as that result.
Drexel.
RE: What's wrong with Wichita State Basketball? - Bearcats#1 - 01-23-2018 02:26 PM
That game was the first time I've seen a Samson UH team play defense. Usually its like open gym at the Y watching UH. They actually played defense this time.
RE: What's wrong with Wichita State Basketball? - ShockerFever - 01-23-2018 02:28 PM
(01-23-2018 02:26 PM)Bearcats#1 Wrote: That game was the first time I've seen a Samson UH team play defense. Usually its like open gym at the Y watching UH. They actually played defense this time.
So an inspired effort perhaps?
RE: What's wrong with Wichita State Basketball? - HuskyU - 01-23-2018 02:33 PM
(01-23-2018 02:28 PM)ShockerFever Wrote:(01-23-2018 02:26 PM)Bearcats#1 Wrote: That game was the first time I've seen a Samson UH team play defense. Usually its like open gym at the Y watching UH. They actually played defense this time.
So an inspired effort perhaps?
Yup. Game of their lives.
RE: What's wrong with Wichita State Basketball? - Bearcats#1 - 01-23-2018 02:35 PM
(01-23-2018 02:28 PM)ShockerFever Wrote:(01-23-2018 02:26 PM)Bearcats#1 Wrote: That game was the first time I've seen a Samson UH team play defense. Usually its like open gym at the Y watching UH. They actually played defense this time.
So an inspired effort perhaps?
I think they have a talented team that has spent a portion of this year trying to figure it out. Hence the beating of you guys, drubbing of Arkansas, and beating of a good Providence team and yet, loss to Drexel. But even Drexel was the first game of the year and it was by 4points. Nobody cares now.
I think UH is talented. They may be getting better as the season progresses. I won't know for sure until I see how they play UC.
RE: What's wrong with Wichita State Basketball? - HuskyU - 01-23-2018 02:37 PM
(01-23-2018 02:35 PM)Bearcats#1 Wrote:(01-23-2018 02:28 PM)ShockerFever Wrote:(01-23-2018 02:26 PM)Bearcats#1 Wrote: That game was the first time I've seen a Samson UH team play defense. Usually its like open gym at the Y watching UH. They actually played defense this time.
So an inspired effort perhaps?
I think they have a talented team that has spent a portion of this year trying to figure it out. Hence the beating of you guys, drubbing of Arkansas, and beating of a good Providence team and yet, loss to Drexel. But even Drexel was the first game of the year and it was by 4points. Nobody cares now.
I think UH is talented. They may be getting better as the season progresses. I won't know for sure until I see how they play UC.
That's good coaching.
UCONN is stagnant and/or getting worse. That is bad coaching.