DrTorch Wrote:Oddly enough, you and TechFan4 have avoided my original post on this thread.  Curiously, you never posted any references for your position either.
Perhaps your mistake is that you think discussions and debates are places for people to air their fantasies and prejudices.  When is the last time *you* saw a debate where the presenter had NO support for their claims?  or where they admitted they knew NOTHING about the topic at hand?
You pretend to be sophisticated, yet you've admitted you have never studied the subjects on this thread.  Why shouldn't you be the subject of ridicule for that?

I admitted to not being a self proclaimed expert on the subject, not to knowing nothing of the topic. I feel that I know at least as much as the average person, which may not add up to a whole lot, but in terms of this discussion it is enough to question your statements.

I have read the Bible cover to cover. I have read the theory of evolution, and the supporting evidence associated with it. If we were in a professional debate, yes, we would need to support each and every claim with where we came up with it. However, since this is just an informal discussion, doing an exact citation of every statement is not needed unless it is a totally outlandish claim. In any discussion, a person needs to lay out their argument, whether in a professional debate or an informal discussion on a message board (and all you do is discuss things on message boards, contrary to your belief, whether it is sports, politics, or religion). Your whole argument when laid out says "go read these books". That is not an argument in and of itself, nor will it ever be. TechFan presents a well thought out argument for his side, and explanations for his views. That is why he has the ability to debate the subject and you do not.

I have stated in previous posts that I believe in both some sort of creationism and some sort of evolution theory. There is too much differing evidence out there to make either version 100% true, in my opinion. I'm sorry that you cannot handle that someone does not 100% agree with your statements, where you call each and every finding BS. Undoubtedly some of the findings are either faked or misunderstood by the scientists studying them. Other findings do beg for more investigation, and should continue to be investigated. There is plenty of evidence contrary to both sides of the argument, whether you believe in Genesis or whether you believe in evolution theory. So, I guess in the end, I remain a deist. I will remain open to intelligent debate, where people lay out their argument, and don't just tell someone they are not intelligent enough on the subject because they didn't read some sort of book that is slanted one way or another.

GrayBeard Wrote:

MU ATO Wrote:

GrayBeard Wrote:

MU ATO Wrote:Im sorry but some naked dude pulling his ribs out to make some naked chic isnt exactly believable.

If that were the case 99.9% of men would be ribless.
:eek:

If your going to ridicule the Bible, at least get the stories right. Otherwise you just look like a Religion Hating Idiot and nobody, except for other religion hating idiots, will give your thoughts the time of day.

I dont care about the story as thats all it is a story.

I dont hate religion, I have a great religion.

Football.

Dont be pissy becuase your religion stories sound stupid. You're lucky that some people believe that crap to begin with.
:rolleyes:

Hey, if you want to look ignorant, that is your decision. Have at it!

Oh so if I disagree with you Im ignorant. Sorry but my feelings on religion are not ignorant. Just different from yours. Sheesh. :bang:

mlbUC Wrote:

GrayBeard Wrote:Hey, if you want to look ignorant, that is your decision.  Have at it!

Touche... depending on a person's viewpoint on this subject, you could be considered ignorant for ignoring scientific evidence...

Thank you sir may I have another.

techfan4 Wrote:

MU ATO Wrote:

GrayBeard Wrote:

MU ATO Wrote:

techfan4 Wrote:

georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:Evolution;  I find the refusal to believe one is descended from monkies, given the archeological evidence, arrogant.  I am Deist, so my religious beliefs mesh with evolution perfectly.   To believe in creationism, in my opinion, is to replace a landslide of scientific evidence with your imaginary friend of preference.

Arrogant? If I'm wrong, then maybe...but I have too much faith to believe that. Until any transitional evidence is found, I am 100% doubtful of humans coming from apes. Isn't it weird that the whole story of creation in the Bible fits? Where did the monkies/apes come from?

Im sorry but some naked dude pulling his ribs out to make some naked chic isnt exactly believable.

If that were the case 99.9% of men would be ribless.
:eek:

If your going to ridicule the Bible, at least get the stories right. Otherwise you just look like a Religion Hating Idiot and nobody, except for other religion hating idiots, will give your thoughts the time of day.

I dont care about the story as thats all it is a story.

I dont hate religion, I have a great religion.

Football.

Dont be pissy becuase your religion stories sound stupid. You're lucky that some people believe that crap to begin with.
:rolleyes:

Why are you alive then? How about you explain your thoughts...

I am alive becuase my Mother and Father had sex and his sperm hit her egg & wam bam boom.

A healthy baby boy was born.

I have no problem with religion. I think its great for people that need it, but I do not need to live my life hoping thast I go to heaven. I choose to do good things becuase they are good things. I dont needto convinve myself that if I do bad things I will go to hell for even after Im already dead.

I just have learned about too many STUPID things that religious people depend on.

Its not my things and will NEVER be my thing.

I dont live my life for God, I live it for my family, my future family that I will have one day and everything we can get out of life.

I dont have to pray to something when I have all that I want at my grasp.

Possibly there is a God she might be looking at me with some thoughts about Im sending this one to hell, or possibly she might be thinking this one is confused. I guess we can talk about it over dinner.

The rib thing earlier wasa joke, and when people cant even joke about things then its time to move on.
:angel:

RebelKev Wrote:The main problem I have with atheists is that they automatically assume Christians are unintelligent morons for believing in "fairy tales", as they like to call them. I generally don't get into discussions with people like this. There ARE those types in this thread as well. :rolleyes:


You can believe in the God of Peanuts, for all I care, just leave me to believe in my God. ....if that means praying in public, get over it.

Pray in public all you want.

Just dont expect me to drop what Im doing so you can pray to god. :rolleyes:

Its when you force religion on me that I have problems.

They have churches for that stuff.

Equal rights not seperate.

I think some of the "fairy tales" are sort of odd are they not? Not trying to argue here, but some of them are out there.

mlbUC Wrote:I'm sorry that you cannot handle that someone does not 100% agree with your statements, where you call each and every finding BS.

Where exactly did I write that?

Thanks for keeping an open mind. :rolleyes:

And why would anyone brag about having an average knowledge of the subject? That's like me telling Pete Carrol his coaching has problems.

DrTorch Wrote:

Quote:TechFan4 has demonstrated the ability to debate the subject, it is unfortunate that you cannot and will not engage in a real debate/discussion, but instead take personal shots at the person asking you to qualify your statements.

Oddly enough, you and TechFan4 have avoided my original post on this thread. Curiously, you never posted any references for your position either.
Perhaps your mistake is that you think discussions and debates are places for people to air their fantasies and prejudices. When is the last time *you* saw a debate where the presenter had NO support for their claims? or where they admitted they knew NOTHING about the topic at hand?
You pretend to be sophisticated, yet you've admitted you have never studied the subjects on this thread. Why shouldn't you be the subject of ridicule for that?

Why am I in this? I never said there was life on other planets, if thats what you are referring to...

MU ATO Wrote:Pray in public all you want.

Just dont expect me to drop what Im doing so you can pray to god. :rolleyes:

Its when you force religion on me that I have problems.

They have churches for that stuff.

Equal rights not seperate.

I think some of the "fairy tales" are sort of odd are they not? Not trying to argue here, but some of them are out there.

See, that freedom you enjoy...I ALSO enjoy. I don't HAVE to utilize a church to pray. You also don't have to drop anything. However, if you are offended by my praying.........well, I couldn't care less.

T-Monay820 Wrote:What about this AI thing? Artificial intelligence? Someone have an opinion on it, and can tell me in short what it is? Is it a third option, or in close relation to Creationism?

I got this wrong. I meant intelligent design, not AI. If someone could explain this (replacing AI with ID) I would most appreciate it.

T-Monay820 Wrote:

T-Monay820 Wrote:What about this AI thing? Artificial intelligence? Someone have an opinion on it, and can tell me in short what it is? Is it a third option, or in close relation to Creationism?

I got this wrong. I meant intelligent design, not AI. If someone could explain this (replacing AI with ID) I would most appreciate it.

Are you asking for an explanation of Intelligent Design theory?

If so, here it is briefly: If I become an impartial observer of the universe, and particularly the living universe here on Earth, and I start speculating on the origin of it all (speculating b/c I cannot make direct observations) the logical (and nearly inescapable) conclusion is that this universe has the characteristics of a system designed by an intelligent source. The observables, that is to say the data, from scientific studies points to an intelligent creator, and does not fit with a theory that everything happened because there was some slim "chance" of it happening and we simply had enough time.

That's why ID is science. It makes observations, and comes to an inductively logical conclusion.
It is no more religious than someone saying, "I'm an atheist, there is no Creator." Both comment about a creator, but neither ascribe any sort of system to deal with the situation.

The next step is to say, "Can I learn something about this creator?" Obviously that borders and often overlaps what most folks would call religion. It also oversteps what is strictly defined as Intelligent Design theory. And, while it would be unconstitutional to force someone to go a certain direction, or even to pursue this study at all, it is censorship and a violation of the 1st ammendment to prevent it.

BONUS PS
<a href='http://www.pfm.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=BreakPoint1&Template=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=15454' target='_blank'>http://www.pfm.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section...ContentID=15454</a>

Deals with this subject.

And for mlbUC, an excerpt

Quote:Now, you need to understand what’s at stake here and you need to get the best arguments available. Those who try to participate in this debate without fully understanding the subject can sometimes do more harm than good,

DrTorch Wrote:Where exactly did I write that?

Quote:3. Too much BS. In addition to the dearth of fossil evidence, evolutionists have a long history of faking data: from Piltdown man, embryonic recapitulation, and faked photos of pepper moths...evolutionists always seem to be citing bogus evidence. Why? No real evidence to cite. BTW, the pepper moth argument was never one that supported evolution (as if natural selection was of any consequence) so throwing that one out is almost meaningless.

Good enough? I also quoted your whole statement, unlike your selective quoting that you enjoy doing...

Quote:And why would anyone brag about having an average knowledge of the subject?&nbsp; That's like me telling Pete Carrol his coaching has problems.

I'm being realistic. I'm admitting that I'm not an expert on the subject. It also appears that you aren't either since you are unable to convey your views on the subject...

mlbUC Wrote:

DrTorch Wrote:Where exactly did I write that?

Quote:3. Too much BS. In addition to the dearth of fossil evidence, evolutionists have a long history of faking data: from Piltdown man, embryonic recapitulation, and faked photos of pepper moths...evolutionists always seem to be citing bogus evidence. Why? No real evidence to cite. BTW, the pepper moth argument was never one that supported evolution (as if natural selection was of any consequence) so throwing that one out is almost meaningless.

Good enough? I also quoted your whole statement, unlike your selective quoting that you enjoy doing...

Yes, and it demonstrates that I wrote nothing along the lines of what you ascribed to me.

Thanks for confirming that.

Quote:I'm being realistic. I'm admitting that I'm not an expert on the subject. It also appears that you aren't either since you are unable to convey your views on the subject...

So now I'm responsible for your inability to understand? Nice try.

Who knows? If you actually read something and put some effort into understanding, maybe you'd learn something. But, you'd rather spend time debating on message boards. I hope you enjoy that thrill of baring your ignorance to everyone.

Quote:Yes, and it demonstrates that I wrote nothing along the lines of what you ascribed to me.

Thanks for confirming that.

Hmmm... you state that the scientific evidence is BS, that they lie about their results, fake data, etc. etc. Sounds pretty accurate to me.

Quote:Who knows? If you actually read something and put some effort into understanding, maybe you'd learn something. But, you'd rather spend time debating on message boards. I hope you enjoy that thrill of baring your ignorance to everyone.

You obviously don't understand what these boards are for... because every time I read something on one of these boards, whether it is sports related or not, it is someone's views on what is going on. People debate views on a wide range of topics, and that is what these boards allow for. I'm sorry if you are unable to engage in public debate on a wide range of subjects, but instead call people names then don't give answers to questions posed to you. I asked you specific questions, and you never once gave a specific answer.

mlbUC Wrote:

Quote:Yes, and it demonstrates that I wrote nothing along the lines of what you ascribed to me.

Thanks for confirming that.

Hmmm... you state that the scientific evidence is BS, that they lie about their results, fake data, etc. etc. Sounds pretty accurate to me.

Did I say "each and every"?

No. You don't even appreciate the use of the words you use. That's a big problem (so do you prefer Tweedledee or Tweedledum?) It's why it's so easy to show how absurd your reasoning is and why your questions are pointless. You are a textbook example of logical fallacies.

It's also why I can state unequivocally that you know nothing about these subjects. You may indeed have "average knowledge" of these subjects, but that's an indictment on education. And keep in mind, people don't learn much from those w/ average knowledge.

You choose to believe that my comments are simply personal attacks. You don't even recognize the truth when you see it. Why do you even bother?

Why is it that when Christians are back up against the wall they always refer to these lines. How about mentioning the fact that Jesus invites you to come share in his sufferings. Yes all these also refer to his comfort and support during the sufferings but quit telling people that their lives are just gonna be great and wonderful and hunkydory if they accept Christ as their Lord and Savior cause it is a total lie and misrepresentation of the facts! Just for the record I was a Deacon at a Non-Demoninational "Bible Teaching" Church where I also lead Discipleship groups and taught Sunday school to the Middle School aged kids! So I can debate with the best of them on this topic!

Quote:"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." - John 3:16

"Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid." - John 14:27

"I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." - John 16:33

Quote:Job 9:28
I still dread all my sufferings, for I know you will not hold me innocent.
Job 9:27-29 (in Context) Job 9 (Whole Chapter)
Romans 5:3
Not only so, but we [ Or let us] also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance;
Romans 5:2-4 (in Context) Romans 5 (Whole Chapter)
Romans 8:17
Now if we are children, then we are heirs–heirs of God and coheirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
Romans 8:16-18 (in Context) Romans 8 (Whole Chapter)
Romans 8:18
[ Future Glory ] I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.
Romans 8:17-19 (in Context) Romans 8 (Whole Chapter)
2 Corinthians 1:5
For just as the sufferings of Christ flow over into our lives, so also through Christ our comfort overflows.
2 Corinthians 1:4-6 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 1 (Whole Chapter)
2 Corinthians 1:6
If we are distressed, it is for your comfort and salvation; if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which produces in you patient endurance of the same sufferings we suffer.
2 Corinthians 1:5-7 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 1 (Whole Chapter)
2 Corinthians 1:7
And our hope for you is firm, because we know that just as you share in our sufferings, so also you share in our comfort.
2 Corinthians 1:6-8 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 1 (Whole Chapter)
2 Corinthians 11:16
[ Paul Boasts About His Sufferings ] I repeat: Let no one take me for a fool. But if you do, then receive me just as you would a fool, so that I may do a little boasting.
2 Corinthians 11:15-17 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 11 (Whole Chapter)
Ephesians 3:13
I ask you, therefore, not to be discouraged because of my sufferings for you, which are your glory.
Ephesians 3:12-14 (in Context) Ephesians 3 (Whole Chapter)
Philippians 3:10
I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,
Philippians 3:9-11 (in Context) Philippians 3 (Whole Chapter)

NavyDoc69 Wrote:Why is it that when Christians are back up against the wall they always refer to these lines. How about mentioning the fact that Jesus invites you to come share in his sufferings. Yes all these also refer to his comfort and support during the sufferings but quit telling people that their lives are just gonna be great and wonderful and hunkydory if they accept Christ as their Lord and Savior cause it is a total lie and misrepresentation of the facts! Just for the record I was a Deacon at a Non-Demoninational "Bible Teaching" Church where I also lead Discipleship groups and taught Sunday school to the Middle School aged kids! So I can debate with the best of them on this topic!

You make great points. Too often Christians make it out that life is easy after finding Christ. That is not true at all. Life is a constant series of tests and experiences. The difference between Christians and non-Christians, is that Christians have the Holy Spirit within them that gives them the peace and comfort when they go through things. Does that make it feel good? Absolutely not, but we always have the hope and the promise of Heaven after we complete our struggles here on Earth.

Navy Doc, are you still a Bible Believing Christian?

NavyDoc69 Wrote:Why is it that when Christians are back up against the wall they always refer to these lines. How about mentioning the fact that Jesus invites you to come share in his sufferings. Yes all these also refer to his comfort and support during the sufferings but quit telling people that their lives are just gonna be great and wonderful and hunkydory if they accept Christ as their Lord and Savior cause it is a total lie and misrepresentation of the facts!

[/quote]
You're right. I get a little ill when I hear the saccharine-coated gospel.

Quote:Luke 14: 26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. 27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? 29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, 30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish. 31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace. 33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple

There is a cost, and Jesus warns, "You'd better count it up ahead of time."

John Eldredge writes along these lines too. That's one reason I like him so much.

However, having a peace-filled life AND suffering are not mutually exclusive. That's the critical factor.