Ninerfan1 Wrote:

JTiger Wrote:Can you have a discussion without name calling?  If your argument holds water you don't have to use words like "Liberal, drug user, or socialist"

1. What's wrong with using liberal? It's a term to define a political ideology that Dogger, for one, holds to.

2. Drug user, as Rage pointed out, was an example, I wasn't calling Dogger a drug user. :rolleyes:

3. Socialist is a term to derfine a political ideology/philosophy. You can find it in the dictionary.

Do you really expect me to belive you don't use these words as an insult? C'mon. What if I called you a liberal or socialist.

JTiger Wrote:Do you really expect me to belive you don't use these words as an insult? C'mon. What if I called you a liberal or socialist.

You calling me a liberal or a socialist is like me calling you an Ole Miss fan. It can't apply b/c there is nothing about my political philosophy, or what I write on this board, to indicate I'm either of those things.

Both have clear definitions of what they are, politically speaking, neither can apply to me.

I just looked through some definitions of socialism and by what I read Let's definition of socialism borders more on the form of communism. Now communism is a form of socialism so he is not being misleading, but there are other forms of socialism. Our utility system would not be here without socialism. Who do you pay your water bill to? Now this is at the crux of the matter. Do we enjoy the roads we all travel on? Do you like that light switch? How about that GPS reciever? What about that tricky thingy majingy in my kitchen.... yeah the microwave? How about that anti-biotic you had for that last cough? How about that degree???

Welcome Abroad comrade!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

America is not a socialist nation.

Quote:Now, do any of you who preach the evils of socialism believe we could of had a moon shot under private financing?

Yes, we could have. Quite easily. We had air flight without government. We had sea travel without government. We had computers without government, cars without government, sky scrapers without government.

Quote:Do any of you disagree with the Sherman anti-trust laws?

Sherman anti-trus law

Quote:Every contract, combination in the form of trust or otherwise, or conspiracy, in restraint of trade or commerce among the several States, or with foreign nations, is declared to be illegal.

Powers granted to the government by the constitution

Quote:Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;

Quote:These are just two benefits of living in this socialistic society of ours.

We are NOT a socialistic nation.

So Dogger, in addition to giving any tax refund you receive back to the government, how much more will you give to the government for the common good this year?

You know another thing. How did we get to the place where a liberal is such a bad title. Yes, I have progressive thoughts. By definition I am a liberal. Abraham Lincoln would be considered a liberal. I take no offense to being called a liberal. I know I am!!! That truly is the MOST successful tool the right has. Brand somebody liberal. My side has to do a better job of defing that term in the public mindest.

Niner,

I know you to be more intelligent than the airflight comment. As a matter of fact we wouldn't have commercial airflight today without heavy government intervention. Yes, your right we would of had the Wright brothers airplane under capitalism. Under socialism we have airports, air traffic controlers, and airlines. I believe all airlines were under government control until the 70's. I may be mistaken though.

Do you honestly believe that we would have the computer technology of today without public universities. Come on, I know your not serious with that statement.

Quote:Our utility system would not be here without socialism. 

Dogger clearly you have no idea what socialism means.

Socialism, in plain terms, is everything is owned by the collective and the government distributes it. The water system is a service provided by government. It is not socialism.

Quote:Do we enjoy the roads we all travel on?

Yes. That is a power, granted BY THE PEOPLE, through the constitution, to the government. Roads are not a result of all belonging to the collective and that's how they are built.

Quote:Do you like that light switch?  How about that GPS reciever?  What about that tricky thingy majingy in my kitchen....  yeah the microwave?

The light switch? I've got news for you Dogger, I pay my power bill to Duke Power, a PRIVATE SECTOR company. I don't pay my electric bill to the US government.

The microwave wasn't invented by the government.

Quote:How about that anti-biotic you had for that last cough?

You mean the one developed and distributed by a pharmaseutical sales company?

Quote:How about that degree???

You mean the one I paid over 30K for over 4 years?

Dogger you have a serious problem continuing arguments you've lost and placing yourself further in the hole. America is not a socialistic nation.

In 1890 the Sherman Antitrust Act was passed. The alleged purpose of the Act was to protect consumers against the threat of monopolized industry and high prices. The main target of this trust-busting act was John D. Rockefeller’s Standard Oil Company.

Quote:I know you to be more intelligent than the airflight comment. 

Please site the government funding that went to the Wright brothers to develop their plane.

The point being Dogger, government is not necessary to foster invention and progress.

Quote:Under socialism we have airports,  air traffic controlers, and airlines.

:bang:

Dogger, I mean this in all sincerity. Take a basic high school civics class and you will learn what socialism is. We don't have airports, air traffic controlers or airlines because of socialism.

Once again, socialism is an ideology that says all I have and earn, and all you have and earn, is part of the collective and it falls to government to distribute it.

I don't mean this to be rude, but you really have no freakin clue what you're talking about here.

I have to agree with Niner on this one. :drink: :drink: :drink:

Dogger Wrote:In 1890 the Sherman Antitrust Act was passed. The alleged purpose of the Act was to protect consumers against the threat of monopolized industry and high prices. The main target of this trust-busting act was John D. Rockefeller’s Standard Oil Company.

Quote:STATUTES ENFORCED BY THE ANTITRUST DIVISION

SHERMAN ANTITRUST ACT, 15 U.S.C. §§ 1-7
§ 1 Sherman Act, 15 U.S.C. § 1

Trusts, etc., in restraint of trade illegal; penalty

Every contract, combination in the form of trust or otherwise, or conspiracy, in restraint of trade or commerce among the several States, or with foreign nations, is declared to be illegal. Every person who shall make any contract or engage in any combination or conspiracy hereby declared to be illegal shall be deemed guilty of a felony, and, on conviction thereof, shall be punished by fine not exceeding $10,000,000 if a corporation, or, if any other person, $350,000, or by imprisonment not exceeding three years, or by both said punishments, in the discretion of the court.

§ 2 Sherman Act, 15 U.S.C. § 2

Monopolizing trade a felony; penalty

Every person who shall monopolize, or attempt to monopolize, or combine or conspire with any other person or persons, to monopolize any part of the trade or commerce among the several States, or with foreign nations, shall be deemed guilty of a felony, and, on conviction thereof, shall be punished by fine not exceeding $10,000,000 if a corporation, or, if any other person, $350,000, or by imprisonment not exceeding three years, or by both said punishments, in the discretion of the court.

§ 3 Sherman Act, 15 U.S.C. § 3

Trusts in Territories or District of Columbia illegal; combination a felony


Every contract, combination in form of trust or otherwise, or conspiracy, in restraint of trade or commerce in any Territory of the United States or of the District of Columbia, or in restraint of trade or commerce between any such Territory and another, or between any such Territory or Territories and any State or States or the District of Columbia, or with foreign nations, or between the District of Columbia and any State or States or foreign nations, is declared illegal. Every person who shall make any such contract or engage in any such combination or conspiracy, shall be deemed guilty of a felony, and, on conviction thereof, shall be punished by fine not exceeding $10,000,000 if a corporation, or, if any other person, $350,000, or by imprisonment not exceeding three years, or by both said punishments, in the discretion of the court.

§ 4 Sherman Act, 15 U.S.C. § 4

Jurisdiction of courts; duty of United States attorneys; procedure

The several district courts of the United States are invested with jurisdiction to prevent and restrain violations of sections 1 to 7 of this title; and it shall be the duty of the several United States attorneys, in their respective districts, under the direction of the Attorney General, to institute proceedings in equity to prevent and restrain such violations. Such proceedings may be by way of petition setting forth the case and praying that such violation shall be enjoined or otherwise prohibited. When the parties complained of shall have been duly notified of such petition the court shall proceed, as soon as may be, to the hearing and determination of the case; and pending such petition and before final decree, the court may at any time make such temporary restraining order or prohibition as shall be deemed just in the premises.


§ 5 Sherman Act, 15 U.S.C. § 5

Bringing in additional parties

Whenever it shall appear to the court before which any proceeding under section 4 of this title may be pending, that the ends of justice require that other parties should be brought before the court, the court may cause them to be summoned, whether they reside in the district in which the court is held or not; and subpoenas to that end may be served in any district by the marshal thereof.

§ 6 Sherman Act, 15 U.S.C. § 6

Forfeiture of property in transit

Any property owned under any contract or by any combination, or pursuant to any conspiracy (and being the subject thereof) mentioned in section 1 of this title, and being in the course of transportation from one State to another, or to a foreign country, shall be forfeited to the United States, and may be seized and condemned by like proceedings as those provided by law for the forfeiture, seizure, and condemnation of property imported into the United States contrary to law.

§ 7 Sherman Act, 15 U.S.C. § 6a (Foreign Trade Antitrust Improvements Act of 1982)

Conduct involving trade or commerce with foreign nations

Sections 1 to 7 of this title shall not apply to conduct involving trade or commerce (other than import trade or import commerce) with foreign nations unless--


such conduct has a direct, substantial, and reasonably foreseeable effect--

on trade or commerce which is not trade or commerce with foreign nations, or on import trade or import commerce with foreign nations; or

on export trade or export commerce with foreign nations, of a person engaged in such trade or commerce in the United States; and

such effect gives rise to a claim under the provisions of sections 1 to 7 of this title, other than this section.
If sections 1 to 7 of this title apply to such conduct only because of the operation of paragraph (1) (B), then sections 1 to 7 of this title shall apply to such conduct only for injury to export business in the United States.

§ 8 Sherman Act, 15 U.S.C. § 7


"Person" or "persons" defined

The word "person", or "persons", wherever used in sections 1 to 7 of this title shall be deemed to include corporations and associations existing under or authorized by the laws of either the United States, the laws of any of the Territories, the laws of any State, or the laws of any foreign country.

As you can see Dogger, the Sherman Anti Trust act was far more than just to protect against monopolies.

Dogger Wrote:Do you honestly believe that we would have the computer technology of today without public universities. Come on, I know your not serious with that statement.

You mean the public universites that people pay tuition and fees to attend?

College isn't free Dogger. Government didn't pay for my education.

Niner,

Your not being rude.

A) There are many forms of socialism. Do you agree with that? If not end of discussion. If so go on to B. (Feels like one of those books I used to read as a kid or a dichotmous key... never mind)


B) The form of socialism you are quoting is communism. I do not believe in communism. If you believe that I am not a communist you can go onto C.

C) Any government subsidy or government regulation of a private institution or individual enterprise by definition would be a from of socialism go onto staement D.

D) Welcome to the party Pal.

You do realize that even private institutions are subsidized by the government. These subsidizes by definition are a redistribution of wealth. Agreed????????

Gotcha!!!!!!!!!!!! :) :) :) :roflol:

Just damn. There are so many rebuttals I wish to point out; I just don't have the will. Dogger, you're a lost cause.

Reb,

Your not a lost cause to me bud. I will continue to try and point out the error of your ways.

Quote:A) There are many forms of socialism.  Do you agree with that?

Let's go back to the definition of socialism.

Websters Definition, I have bolded the key points.

Quote:1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

Now, does this take different forms? Sure it does. But the underlying principles remain the same. There are not many forms of socialism in the sense that the underlying principles can change and it still be socialism.

Quote:B) The form of socialism you are quoting is communism.  I do not believe in communism.  If you believe that I am not a communist you can go onto C.

No, it isn't. What I am quoting is the understood, for many, many years now, definition of socialism.

Communism as defined by Websters

Quote:1 a : a theory advocating elimination of private property b : a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed
2 capitalized a : a doctrine based on revolutionary Marxian socialism and Marxism-Leninism that was the official ideology of the U.S.S.R. b : a totalitarian system of government in which a single authoritarian party controls state-owned means of production c : a final stage of society in Marxist theory in which the state has withered away and economic goods are distributed equitably d : communist systems collectively.

As you can see, the definitions are very similar. Almost identical. However according to Marx, socialism is a stage on the way to communism, communism being the perfect end. But the difference is in the underlying philosophy around how distribution occurs.

Distribution in Socialism is "from each according to his/her ability, to each according to his/her work."

Communism's principle of distribution is "from each according to his/her ability, to each according to his/her need."

The difference being "to each". In socialism it's according to his/her work, in communism it's according to his/her need. Socialism builds upon Capitalism by nationalizing the "means of production" (i.e. corporations, resources, banks, etc.), but not by making everyone equal. In other words, people will be paid wages based on several factors (social need, difficulty, amount of schooling required, etc.), so not everyone will make the same wage. Under communism the idea is to make everyone equal. This of course has the by product of not encouraging initiative and elminates freedom all together.

Now, is GM, Ford, Microsoft, Virgin, Paramount, Disney etc. nationalized means of production? That would no. And hence, America cannot be a socialistic nation.

Quote:C)  Any government subsidy or government regulation of a private institution or individual enterprise by definition would be a from of socialism go onto staement.

Wrong. Because the definition of socialism is not simply regulation or subsidy. It's ownership. Government can regulate private business, it cannot OWN IT. Government can regulate individual enterprises, it DOES NOT OWN THEM. Regulation, in and of itself, is not socialsim.

Quote:D) Welcome to the party Pal.

Sorry to break it to you Dogger but you're at the party alone. Thought about why that is?

Dogger Wrote:Reb,

Your not a lost cause to me bud. I will continue to try and point out the error of your ways.

The only Socialist institutions in this country are the USPS and the US Military.