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Disney near deal on "Fahrenheit 9/11"
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Post: #61
 
KlutzDio I Wrote:Question to RebelKev:
What exactly is "TRUTH?"

Motown, I'll post a response to the criticisms and inaccuracies in BFC tomorrow. I have to work today, but thanks for the link. :cry:
Quote:6 entries found for truth.
truth    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (trth)
n. pl. truths (trthz, trths)

<span style='color:blue'>1. Conformity to fact or actuality.</span>
2. A statement proven to be or accepted as true.
3. Sincerity; integrity.
4. Fidelity to an original or standard.

Reality; actuality.
often Truth That which is considered to be the supreme reality and to have the ultimate meaning and value of existence.

Clear enough for ya?
05-18-2004 02:35 PM
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Post: #62
 
Excellent post, Klutz. Kev, you, unfortunately, maintained your usual level.
05-18-2004 06:43 PM
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Post: #63
 
Oddball Wrote:Excellent post, Klutz. Kev, you, unfortunately, maintained your usual level.
What level? Being truthful? Dio asked about facts and truth. I cut-n-pasted right out of <a href='http://www.dictionary.com' target='_blank'>http://www.dictionary.com</a>


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05-18-2004 07:38 PM
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Post: #64
 
Exactly.
05-18-2004 07:54 PM
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KlutzDio I Offline
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Post: #65
 
RebelKev Wrote:
KlutzDio I Wrote:Question to RebelKev:
What exactly is "TRUTH?"

Motown, I'll post a response to the criticisms and inaccuracies in BFC tomorrow. I have to work today, but thanks for the link.&nbsp; :cry:
Quote:6 entries found for truth.
truth    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (trth)
n. pl. truths (trthz, trths)

<span style='color:blue'>1. Conformity to fact or actuality.</span>
2. A statement proven to be or accepted as true.
3. Sincerity; integrity.
4. Fidelity to an original or standard.

Reality; actuality.
often Truth That which is considered to be the supreme reality and to have the ultimate meaning and value of existence.

Clear enough for ya?
For part one of the four-part dictionary definition, you need to define "fact" and "actuality."

If you were a critical thinker you'd have objections to the phrase "conformity to fact or actuality." If Truth entails mere conformity, then the definition offered degenerates into a form of relativism--which means what may be true for person A is not necessarily true for person B.
A concrete example would be Hitler's Third Reich in which the Nazi Party held a majority in the Reichstag, and eventually the totality of the German people accepted Nazi Party dictums as the Truth. I think we all know that their version of truth is not what most Americans would accept as Truth, whatever that might be.

On definition #2, it says "a statement proven to be or accepted as true" which fails as well because what might be accepted does not necessarily denote Truth. In the case of Nazi Germany, the majority thought Nazi ideology was the Truth, but we all know that it was not.
This is a weak definition for Truth because it suggests majority rule is the only criteria to establish Truth.
If something is "proven" to be true, then what is the proper method for proving Truth, or what is true as opposed to what is false. Since no specific method is offered, then that leaves the door open for folks like Hitler to "prove" Truth arbitrarily.

Sincerity and integrity need to be defined just like "facts" and "actuality" in definition #1.

Definition #4 is equally as weak as the first three because fidelity is vague and also because who or what determines what a standard is?
Let's say I call 2+2=5 a standard, and after hundreds of years people are still accepting it as a standard. Does that make it true?
Suppose someone who came before us deemed Hitler to be the truthful standard for excellence and Truth in literature. Would everyone then aspire toward getting locked up in prison so they can document their hatred for communists and "undesireables?"

The final unnumbered portion of the definition is more toward what I was looking for when I presented the question. The definition offered here is quite vague, leaving several terms, i.e. "reality" open to interpretation.

More than anything, RebelKev, I am perfectly capable of looking up words in the dictionary, so please don't provide dictionary definitions to serious metaphysical questions such as "what exactly is TRUTH?"

Your answer represented the typical pattern of lazy thinking on your part. To simply look up the meaning of words in a dictionary required the least amount of thinking when I posed the question designed so you would possibly think.

Since my question has been answered unsatisfactorily, try again. What exactly is TRUTH, RebelKev?? This time, give us your answer, not the dictionary's!

The "T" in truth, true and Truth has been capitalized in various instances intentionally.
05-18-2004 08:33 PM
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joebordenrebel Offline
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Post: #66
 
I really think you're in the wrong profession, Dio. A respectable job (with tenure) awaits that gadfly intellect of yours. Then you can quiz students who are (ostensibly) there to learn. 04-bow
05-19-2004 01:06 PM
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KlutzDio I Offline
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Post: #67
 
joebordenrebel Wrote:I really think you're in the wrong profession, Dio. A respectable job (with tenure) awaits that gadfly intellect of yours. Then you can quiz students who are (ostensibly) there to learn. 04-bow
Thanks for the kudos there Stalin, but in all honesty I merely posted Socratic method in my last response to RebelKev.

Socratic method is something in which all sophomore-level philosophy students are well versed. It serves as the basis for critical thinking, yet Socrates likely extrapolated his method from Parmenidean students of the era, the Sophist educators-for-hire, the eastern sea-farers trading regularly with Athenian merchants, or a combination thereof. I wouldn't want to attribute any origins of proper reasoning to Westerners, living or deceased.

And as my friend says over and over: "...in philosophical discourse, all one has to do is exemplify the Nazi regime, or the possibility of space aliens to defeat any position..."
:D
05-19-2004 01:40 PM
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KlutzDio I Offline
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Post: #68
 
<a href='http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/wackoattacko/index.php' target='_blank'>Motown, seen this site?</a>

The writer of the HardyLaw site you linked earlier seems to blame Moore for the conclusions people will draw from 'Bowling...' That's quite idiotic, don't you think?

People will and have drawn all kinds of conclusions from that movie. The conclusion that I have drawn from it is something I suspected before even knowing 'Bowling...' was in production--that the local nightly news from probably every city in the nation promulgates a culture of fear.

The culture of fear in the U.S. has historical roots. It is our cultural heritage. Reading media reports from other eras in the history of our nation, anyone can see this. People in this nation 100 years ago were scared to death, of everything, or at least that is what the newspapers documented.

This is a common practice in the media world. I work for a small, independent media organization. If something's out there that could potentially scare the hell out of my publication's readers, then we'll print it. In fact, we specifically look for that stuff. We do this because our competitors do the same damn thing, and you know what, it sucks!

Several months ago, for example, there was a gas-pump fire at a nearby service station/convenient store. This fire was one of four in the U.S. since oil and gasoline suppliers began keeping statistics in 1961. Nonetheless, we reported on the fire with a lengthy section on how to avoid a gas-pump fire from killing your 6-year old soccer star. I proofed the section and the general story. The slant on it suggested that these fires were rampant. The story did not contain statements that claimed gas-pump fires were rampant, but the less-experienced reader could certainly draw that conclusion. It was subtle, but not too subtle.

That night on the local news for WLBT, channel 3, they reported on the same fire. They held the same slant that my publication's reporter maintained in her story and in the special section--how to avoid a gas-pump fire.

Later that night, around 1 a.m. I saw the same story on a competitor channel, WAPT, when they rebroadcasted their nightly news for the evening. WAPT's reporter made it sound as if people were being killed left and right from out-of-control gas-pump fires. Shortly after her report, however, the anchor cited the statistic that the fire was only the fourth in the U.S. since statistics on it began so many years ago.

I brought it up to my editor, at the time, and he said "oh well, scaring the sh*t outta people sells papers..."

When the Amtrak train 'The City of New Orleans' derailed in our county just a few weeks ago, again we printed stories that suggested Arab terrorists were running loose, derailing trains. My gawd, man! Stay in your homes, go no where and shoot any person of color who comes into your yard.

Moore's most eloquent aspect in 'Bowling...' in my opinion is when he carefully displays news reports showing that many gun-murders occur in predominantly white, suburb style neighborhoods, thus seriously damaging the myth that the majority of killers out there are inner-city black youths.

He likely made some errors, so I take his statements (linked above) with a grain of salt. Every researcher, regardless of how seasoned they are in their field, will make errors. That is a given. I'm not suggesting Moore did his own research, in fact, I think he's incapable of doing that (just [try to] read Stupid White Men).

The whole thing about Moore's critics that really pesses me off is this whole attitude that one who criticizes American culture or society is evil, communist bast*rd, Saddam lover, or a deceiving little devil, spawned from the womb of Hillary, who must die and his civil liberties to freedom of expression should be revoked.

The attitude that Moore's pocketbook should be levied for making errors in 'Bowling...' is ridiculous. Hannity and O'Reilly make errors nightly and they have an agenda, where's the outrage about their crap?

It's all just so durned unfair. People like Moore should probably shut up every now and then, but 'Bowling...' rocked! 04-rock

Does this mean I accept every little facet of 'Bowling...' as true, or TRUTH? No. I am a critical thinker and I found errors in 'Bowling...' on my own, before all these websites started displaying errors. I found these errors after one viewing, and many of the errors I've found are not on Moore-bashing websites that keep a log of errors in the movie.

I realized when scenes might have been staged, and I knew right off the bat the Heston interview at the end was seriously edited. What is important in that regard is that Heston actually agreed to the interview. That is something that should be touched on more because that shows Heston is probably a pretty good guy who'll give his time to anyone, even devil children of Hillary like Moore.

RebelKev, you asked about the Lockheed-Martin plant near Littleton, CO. Yes, that company is a major arms manufacturer. There is one plant near Littleton and for a brief time in the eighties, Lockheed had a contract to aid in the development of the MX missile--a nuclear missile. Does this mean that Eric and Dylan shot up Columbine h.s. because of Lockheed's locale, or business? No. Any fool can see this. Do you really think that people out there believe Lockheed's presence near Littleton caused those kids to shoot up their school?
[come on RebelKev, you cannot be this stupid. You are pulling all of our chains on this forum. No one is that stupid and can still use a computer.]

Lockheed makes combat jets, bombers and other vehicles for destruction.

Lockheed, furthermore, has received generous grants and subsidies from the federal government. These grants were given to the company for research and development on better killing devices.

Lockheed does not pay any taxes.

How do you reconcile this with your self-proclaimed libertarianism?
05-19-2004 04:00 PM
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Post: #69
 
Personally I prefer '911 :Road to Tyranny' By Alex Jones, which has been made 2 years ago instead of 'Fahrenheit 911' made by that money grubbing Michael Moore.

<a href='http://www.infowars.com/tyranny.html' target='_blank'>911: The Road to Tyranny</a>

or you can find it on Kazaa as well.
05-22-2004 08:43 AM
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Post: #70
 
Dio, you bring up some very good points, especially about the news media. Fortunately, I believe a lot of us have learned to
recognize the hype on local t-v newscasts, its something about the way they say it, I guess-

" Coming up at nine, are your outdoor pets safe from coyote invasions? See how one homeowner lost his litter of kittens to these savage animals. And are your CHILDREN safe from these attacks?"

National news? That's a different story. Different, more serious tone. Besides, we all trust Rather don't we? :rolleyes:
05-22-2004 09:09 AM
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Post: #71
 
Michael Moore takes his new movie to Cannes and is adored and praised by the beautiful European sophisticates and his fellow American celebrities. Like I really give a ......... :snore: :snore: :snore:
05-22-2004 09:16 AM
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Post: #72
 
moloch_322 Wrote:Personally I prefer '911 :Road to Tyranny' By Alex Jones, which has been made 2 years ago instead of 'Fahrenheit 911' made by that money grubbing Michael Moore.

<a href='http://www.infowars.com/tyranny.html' target='_blank'>911: The Road to Tyranny</a>

or you can find it on Kazaa as well.
LMAO
05-22-2004 09:16 AM
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Post: #73
 
Speaking of news hype:

"Teen dies from spontaneous combustion. Is YOUR teen safe?"
"Details at nine!"
05-22-2004 09:45 AM
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Post: #74
 
<a href='http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/22/movies/23canne.html?ex=1085889600&en=17efd1572cfac16f&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE' target='_blank'>It won.</a>
05-22-2004 08:49 PM
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Post: #75
 
Was there ever any doubt? Europeans will do anything to stick it to Bush.
05-22-2004 08:55 PM
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Those anti-American bastards! :mad:
05-22-2004 09:23 PM
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Post: #77
 
Quote:But Mr. Moore's victory outdid all of them. For one thing, Cannes is notoriously indifferent to documentaries.

Well, maybe if Moore's films were documentaries, Cannes would be indifferent to them. :wave:

Quote:"I did not set out to make a political film," Mr. Moore said at a news conference after the ceremony.

In other news, Madonna claims she never set out to shock people during her 20-year entertainment career, and Ron Jeremy never intended to have sex with more than just one partner.

Quote:"I fully expect the Fox News Channel and other right-wing media to portray this as an award from the French," Mr. Moore said.

I continue to be thoroughly amazed at how deeply obsessed the Left is with this cable news channel. And is Moore really in a position to criticize another media outlet on how they "portray" something? I think there's a kettle being called a certain very dark color by a (very rotund) pot.

OK, it’s not really fair for me to comment on the film without seeing it yet. But... Did anyone really think that a film with wall-to-wall anti-Bush material wasn't going to win, considering the political leanings of the location and those in attendance? His flick gave a whole new meaning to "preaching to the choir
05-22-2004 11:00 PM
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Post: #78
 
MaumeeRocket Wrote:Was there ever any doubt? Europeans will do anything to stick it to Bush.
Quoting:

Mr. Moore noted that four of the nine jurors were American: Mr. Tarantino, Kathleen Turner, the director Jerry Schatzberg, and the Haitian-born novelist Edwidge Danticat. "I fully expect the Fox News Channel and other right-wing media to portray this as an award from the French," Mr. Moore said. Only one juror, the actress Emanuelle Béart, is a French citizen.

"If you want to add Tilda," he said referring to the British actress Tilda Swinton, "then you could say that more than half came from the coalition of the willing." (The rest of the panel was made up of Benoit Poelvoode, a Belgian actor; Peter von Bagh, a Finnish critic; and the Hong Kong director Tsui Hark.)
05-23-2004 12:06 AM
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Post: #79
 
I'm not reading all the posts...but just posting my $0.02...

I think the movie should be seen by those who want to see it. By fighting it's release and making the producers go through other routes, Disney has caused more controversy and hyped a movie that most would not watch anyway.

Of those that watched it, those angered by it's content and angered towards the Pres would have already felt that way.

As a conservative Democrat, I think Moore is a bit of a joke. I find humor in his theories and ideologies, but don't take him or them seriously and certainly don't base my political beliefs on them.
05-24-2004 12:12 AM
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Motown Bronco Wrote:I continue to be thoroughly amazed at how deeply obsessed the Left is with this cable news channel.
I think the whole thing has to do with their "fair and balanced" line of crap they try to convince people of. They're no more "fair and balanced" than Ted Kennedy is.

But speaking of Fox News, I found it amusing that they tried to sue Fox and The Simpsons for an episode where they made fun of Fox News. They streamed news stories across the bottom such as "Studies show that Democrats cause cancer."

A network suing itself...sounds like a great news story to me!
05-24-2004 12:18 AM
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