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Wal-Mart, bilking the government!
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KlutzDio I Offline
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Several weeks ago, on this forum, we began discussing some pertinent areas of economic philosophy and whether or not American corporations need SOME regulations. I think the following piece illustrates a need for some regulations on the corporate culture of today.

<a href='http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/walmart.html' target='_blank'>Wal-Mart bilks the gov. and communities</a>

Please read and then launch into your ad hominem attacks on Bill Moyers and PBS. Thank you and good luck exploiting your labor force in 2004!
12-20-2003 03:59 PM
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rickheel Offline
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[Image: Bill%20Lisa%20Alien.jpg]
12-20-2003 05:19 PM
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rickheel Offline
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United State's largest private employer, 2003: Wal-Mart

Heck yeah!!!!!!! Shut those capatalist bastards down!!!!!!!! Then you folks can fuss about the unemployment numbers!!!!!
12-20-2003 05:22 PM
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KlutzDio I Offline
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Did you read the attachment?

The whole point was Wal-Mart is subsidizing their health-insurance by the U.S. government. All of those Wally World workers seeking government assistance, hence the bilking part of bilking the gov.!

Read how they are affecting their communities, that's worse. It is blackmail!

And, I said we need some regulations on business. Not shut them down, that isn't a regulation. Like RebelKev, you are setting up a strawman fallacy and since you are having problems understanding that, here's a link on logical fallacies:

<a href='http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html' target='_blank'>Strawman fallacy and examples</a>
12-20-2003 07:23 PM
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calling_the_hogs Offline
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What Dio forgets to mention....

1) Like rickheel said, only the US Government has more employees than Wal-Mart

2) Wal-Mart's benefits are known as the best in the country, not the crap that Dio put up. My sister works for Wal-Mart at their world HQ, and her health coverage is so strong that she could have open heart surgery, and WM foots the entire bill. That's pretty good coverage IMO.

3) The Waltons are the 6th most generous family according to Forbes magazine..giving over $670 million alone to charities. Among that was a $300 million gift to the U of A, which has been able to create over 1,600 more scholarships, 1,200 of those going to minorities.

4) As for small towns, Wal-Mart took the Fayetteville metro area, and over the past 3 decades, increased the metro area to over 340,000, built thousands of community service centers, art centers, residence halls, etc., cut the unemployment rate in the area to 0.77%, and according to the Millikin Agency of California, gave Fayetteville the best economy for any metro area in the US.

Oh yeah, and NW Arkansas is a GOP based economy...yet to Dio's agony...they're #1. HMMMMMMMMMM

WPS
12-20-2003 08:37 PM
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joebordenrebel Offline
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calling_the_hogs Wrote:What Dio forgets to mention....

1) Like rickheel said, only the US Government has more employees than Wal-Mart

2) Wal-Mart's benefits are known as the best in the country, not the crap that Dio put up. My sister works for Wal-Mart at their world HQ, and her health coverage is so strong that she could have open heart surgery, and WM foots the entire bill. That's pretty good coverage IMO.

3) The Waltons are the 6th most generous family according to Forbes magazine..giving over $670 million alone to charities. Among that was a $300 million gift to the U of A, which has been able to create over 1,600 more scholarships, 1,200 of those going to minorities.

4) As for small towns, Wal-Mart took the Fayetteville metro area, and over the past 3 decades, increased the metro area to over 340,000, built thousands of community service centers, art centers, residence halls, etc., cut the unemployment rate in the area to 0.77%, and according to the Millikin Agency of California, gave Fayetteville the best economy for any metro area in the US.

Oh yeah, and NW Arkansas is a GOP based economy...yet to Dio's agony...they're #1. HMMMMMMMMMM

WPS
1) So the size of Wal Mart and the number of employees means ummmm what in relation to what Dio posted?

In order to debate an issue, you must first *frame* the proposition and then refute it. A non sequitur is not an adequate refutation. Thanks for playing though. We have some lovely parting gifts, made by non-unioned slave labor in China.

2) Wal Marts benis *used* to be pretty fair, as far as I understand, but are no longer the same. I'll look into this point but I'm almost positive that's changed significantly since Sam passed on to that great five and dime in the sky.

3) So the Walton's generosity to strangers means their abuse of employees (the ones who make their profit) is okay? Please, Herr Doktor, explain that one. Enlighten me!

4) I have no doubt that Wal Mart has transformed the hick town of Fayetteville into a force of capitalism. What have they done for anytown, USA, is the question on the table, though. See #1.

5) W in the F is a "GOP based economy"? THIS I gotta hear! :roflol:
12-20-2003 08:52 PM
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calling_the_hogs Offline
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Easy come, easy said

My point in mentioning the # of employees and the good Wal-Mart has done is to only show that Dio's "big, bad and evil" statement is invaild. That's part of a debate...proving the other person's points invaild, is it not?

Second, abuse of employees is classic BS sent forth by anti-capatilist groups that you endorse. Wal-Mart has one employee from every store they have come to Fayetteville for their stockholders meeting. I met a distruib from MacLean, VA this summer, who told me that Wal-Mart was simply the greatest thing that had happened to him. He was a single parent and couldn't afford insurance or much less rent. Wal-Mart gave him flexible hours to spend time at home, and plenty of money and benefits to maintain a healthy life, in fact so healthy, the stock options gave em the chance to move into a house.

Hell, the CEO of Wal-Mart was a truck driver! Lee Scott drove a truck for Wal-Mart..but his belief in the company helped his climb up the ladder. That's the American Dream right there..a truck driver works his way to a multi-billionaire..no lottery needed.

So who do I trust? Lib propoganda, or an actual employee. Herr Doktor, you tell me. Your propoganda is based on anti-capalists and people who just hate Wal-Mart because a few 'hicks' as you called em turned an idea to the biggest company on Earth. My info comes on the real, everyday employee. Tough one for me to believe.

If you think Fayetteville is hick...you are dreaming. Like I said before, over 340,000 people, an unemployment rate of .77%, an educated college town with Broadway tour stops, art shows, and well, half of America's top 10 richest people list....name one town in your state that's less hick than Fayetteville. Nuff said.

Fourth, over 300 companies in this country, including very very liberal ones like Walt Disney, who is so liberal they paid Michael Moore six figures to yell about Bush, will tell you Wal-Mart is not only great for America, it's their most important account, so important, that they themselves put up offices in the Fayetteville metro area.

As for "Anytown, USA"...well... most towns have a Wal-Mart. Most Wal-Marts are packed. I think Anytown's fairly satisfied. If Wal-Mart was that much trouble, wouldn't they die in the small towns?

A GOP economy means that that area has been controlled by GOPs for the last 3 decades, and GOP economic strategies have been put in place the last 30 yrs. It's basically more of a Smith-based economic plan instead of Keynesian economics.

As for you joebordenrebel, I'd look at the issues you back, such as, why you, a card-carrying ACLU member, isn't outraged at the fact that your own organization is defending NAMBLA, supporting men's desires to rape 8 yr old boys, then read propoganda on Wal-Mart that basically is BS.

In fact, good question. How do you defend the fact that you're part of a group backing men raping young boys? That's not propoganda there, that's fact.

WPS
12-20-2003 10:02 PM
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KlutzDio I Offline
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Calling the hogs, please read the link. Some Wal-Mart employees said they were encouraged by their managers (at the company's urging) to apply for federal assistance to shore up the poor health insurance offered to those employees by the Wal-Mart corporation.

There's even more info (in the link) on how local communities in California have ponied up subsidies to get Wal-Mart into their communities only for Wal-Mart to pull their locations within a few years and forgoing on the revenues they promised the community government.

Until you read the link you will not understand what I'm talking about. Other than that, I was being facetious when calling the "evil." If you regularly read my posts, you'd realize that.
12-20-2003 10:49 PM
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calling_the_hogs Offline
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I read it. I can tell you they're full of crap. Wal-Mart's health benefits are some of the best in America. I need look no further then my own family to discover that fact out.

Secondly, since my sister works in legal, I know about these contracts. What's NOT mentioned is that when cities pay up for Wal-Mart to build there, they still also sign a contract with the company saying that certain revenues are to be guarenteed; otherwise the company (in this case Wal-Mart) has the authority to move out. Most corporations have contracts like this as protection; in case their market strategies go wrong. If you have more questions on these contracts, go to your nearest college and take Business Law...where you'll learn about these like I did.

Your info comes from a liberal show and liberal journalists. My info comes straight from people I know and see every day. I know the Wal-Mart company and its people FAR better than any of these journalists could ever think about, because, though I don't work for Wal-Mart, I am front and center with them and their vendors. As I type, I am standing not 5 mins from Wal-Mart HQ. I can tell you very easily that the drivel on your site is BS, flat out and uncontested, and people like you and those journalists who come up with this stuff only because you hate capatilism, love socialism, and hate Wal-Mart because of their success, can all kiss my ******. You piss me the hell off.

And you still haven't answered. Why are you and your ACLU buds supporting men raping young boys?

WPS
12-20-2003 11:20 PM
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joebordenrebel Offline
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Quote:My point in mentioning the # of employees and the good Wal-Mart has done is to only show that Dio's "big, bad and evil" statement is invaild.


How does the size of the company equate to the good that it has done? I think you're skipping a step in your logic there, sparky. If you mean that the whole company charges a little less than what the unionized grocery stores in town do and yet pays a LOT less (thus pocketing the profit! you gotta love capitalism!) to those same "happy" employees, then you and I just have a different definition of what constitutes the word "good."

And mentioning a proposition does not automatically make a point invalid. If you're going to debate, could you at least learn the ground rules?

Quote:Second, abuse of employees is classic BS sent forth by anti-capatilist groups that you endorse. Wal-Mart has one employee from every store they have come to Fayetteville for their stockholders meeting. I met a distruib from MacLean, VA this summer, who told me that Wal-Mart was simply the greatest thing that had happened to him. He was a single parent and couldn't afford insurance or much less rent. Wal-Mart gave him flexible hours to spend time at home, and plenty of money and benefits to maintain a healthy life, in fact so healthy, the stock options gave em the chance to move into a house.


Since it apparently in inconvenient for you to click links, here is another piece of anecdotal evidence I'll want to present as exhibit A in "People v. Wally World":

Wal-Mart Wages Don't Support Wal-Mart Workers



By Stan Cox, AlterNet
June 10, 2003




On June 6, Wal-Mart's shareholders converged on Fayetteville, Arkansas for their annual meeting. According to Arkansas Business Online, "The famously colorful event often takes on the feeling of a high school pep rally, as shareholders and company executives perform the 'Wal-Mart cheer.'"




And why shouldn't they cheer? Their company chalked up a record $56.7 billion worth of sales in the first quarter of 2003.




Wal-Mart is the nation's biggest employer, the low-price champion, and a seller of just about everything. A healthy family with a roof over its head could supply virtually all of its other basic monthly needs with one stop at a Wal-Mart Supercenter like the one here in Salina, Kansas. To me, that raised a question: Can a family whose breadwinner works at Wal-Mart afford to supply its minimum needs by shopping there?




Last Sunday, my adult son and daughter joined me for a visit to the Wal-Mart Supercenter in Salina. We spent an hour and a half wandering among the hundreds of red, blue and yellow "Always Low Prices" signs. We checked many of those prices and then went home to do some calculating.




Our conclusion: A single parent employed full-time at Salina's Wal-Mart and raising two children aged 4 and 12 does not earn enough money to supply the family's basic needs by shopping at that same Wal-Mart.




According to the personnel manager at Salina's Supercenter, a cashier earns a starting hourly wage of $6.25. After Social Security and Medicare taxes, the paychecks for a month would total $1,016 for a full-time 176 hours. (That's 40 hours a week, which would put this cashier in a better financial position than the many employees who work 32 or fewer hours a week. Of course, hourly pay rises eventually, but the 2001 PBS report "Store Wars" found that most employees have left by the end of their first year.)




We calculated the amount that our hypothetical three-member family would spend each month if as many of its essential needs as possible were supplied by our local Supercenter. The bottom line: They would need an absolute minimum of $1,136 per month to cover housing, food, transportation, health care and miscellaneous expenses. Despite our best efforts, we exceeded our cashier's monthly income by $120. We couldn't have come even that close had our cashier's family not been eligible for a State of Kansas child-care allowance that covers all but $22 per month in child-care costs for such a family living on so low a wage.




To determine needs, we used published studies on an "adequate but austere" budget for a family with one adult, one preschooler and one school-age child living in Salina. But we slashed some of the published budget items by as much as 38 percent, based on the "Always Low Prices" we found at the Supercenter. And we completely eliminated anything we could do without.




Take a look at the details of our budget and try to decide if you could find a way to cut it and make ends meet.




Living wage campaigns across the country have attempted to determine and advocate for a wage level that can provide a decent life for working families. Living wages are designed to sustain a family over time. Our goal was much more modest. All we asked of our Wal-Mart wage was to get our cashier's family to the end of the month in a central Kansas city of 50,000, assuming they were already settled in a rented apartment or mobile home and had a paid-for car, furniture and appliances. The Wal-Mart wage failed
12-20-2003 11:20 PM
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calling_the_hogs Offline
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joebordenrebel Wrote:Stan Cox is a plant breeder/geneticist and writer living in Salina, Kansas.

Now, I'm not doubting that the CEO was a truck driver (well, okay, yes I do. prove it to me) but, as you can clearly see, Wally World ain't the greatest thing since sliced bread for the working people.
Says who? You, a bunch of radicals, and a plant breeder.

Do you people actually believe you can throw liberal propoganda out online and expect everyone to believe it? That's not my idea of educated information. I'd rather get it from actual Wal-Mart employees, which I do, daily.

How about stock options, bonuses, etc. given to employees? Oops! Forgot that one. I have a friend in F'ville who's only making roughly $50,000/yr., yet has a swimming pool and a 6,000 sq ft. house. Why? Stock options

Meanwhile, here's Forbes, educated in the business world, saying Wal-Mart is America's most admired company. Articles on Lee Scott, wondering how Wal-Mart does it.

Educated businessman, or a plant breeder. Real employees I see every day, or you.

Again, tough choice on who to believe.

WPS
12-20-2003 11:40 PM
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KlutzDio I Offline
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calling_the_hogs Wrote:I read it. I can tell you they're full of crap. Wal-Mart's health benefits are some of the best in America. I need look no further then my own family to discover that fact out.

Secondly, since my sister works in legal, I know about these contracts. What's NOT mentioned is that when cities pay up for Wal-Mart to build there, they still also sign a contract with the company saying that certain revenues are to be guarenteed; otherwise the company (in this case Wal-Mart) has the authority to move out. Most corporations have contracts like this as protection; in case their market strategies go wrong. If you have more questions on these contracts, go to your nearest college and take Business Law...where you'll learn about these like I did.

Your info comes from a liberal show and liberal journalists. My info comes straight from people I know and see every day. I know the Wal-Mart company and its people FAR better than any of these journalists could ever think about, because, though I don't work for Wal-Mart, I am front and center with them and their vendors. As I type, I am standing not 5 mins from Wal-Mart HQ. I can tell you very easily that the drivel on your site is BS, flat out and uncontested, and people like you and those journalists who come up with this stuff only because you hate capatilism, love socialism, and hate Wal-Mart because of their success, can all kiss my ******. You piss me the hell off.

And you still haven't answered. Why are you and your ACLU buds supporting men raping young boys?

WPS
On Paragraph one of your post you are saying these folks are full of crap. Now why would they lie?
They showed a document that circulated in associates' pay-checks telling the employees where and how to apply for gov. assistance for health care. Now how are these people fulll of crap when they have evidence?
And, let me tell you this, a $1500 deductable without co-pay is pretty crummy health insurance when an associate's pay is less than $8 per hour (less than $16,000 per year).
Sending their employees to apply for assistance is just plain wrong!
Also, the method by which they deny health insurance to their employees is wrong. They categorize around 60% of their people as part-time, thus ineligible for benefits.
Cheap labor is what they want, so they can drive local businesses out of the market. That isn't capitalism, that is an attempted monopoly.

"Secondly, since my sister works in legal, I know about these contracts. What's NOT mentioned is that when cities pay up for Wal-Mart to build there, they still also sign a contract with the company saying that certain revenues are to be guarenteed; otherwise the company (in this case Wal-Mart) has the authority to move out."
Last night on the show, the community in CA said they held up their end of the bargin. I'm not quite following it closely but a similar debate has been brewing in Memphis between that city and Wal-Mart.

" Most corporations have contracts like this as protection; in case their market strategies go wrong. If you have more questions on these contracts, go to your nearest college and take Business Law...where you'll learn about these like I did."
I took business law!

"Your info comes from a liberal show and liberal journalists."
The way you are using "liberal" here, your response constitutes an ad hominem (see below).


"I know the Wal-Mart company and its people FAR better than any of these journalists could ever think about, because, though I don't work for Wal-Mart, I am front and center with them and their vendors. "
From what you say here, it sounds as if you are as biased as you claim the "liberal" journalists are!

" and people like you and those journalists who come up with this stuff only because you hate capatilism, love socialism, and hate Wal-Mart because of their success,"
This is a strawman fallacy of logic (see below). I never said I hate capitalism and I never said I love socialism and even if I did say these things, this is not what we are arguing here. We are not arguing over my political and economic philosophies. I said the corporate community needs SOME regulations (can you read?) and I was very clear about this.

"...can all kiss my ******. You piss me the hell off. "
If I'm that bad, then perhaps you should avoid my posts. And, we have a sense of civility here that each and every one of us respect one another although we may disagree. We've been getting along alot lately and we don't need you to disconstruct that. If you feel you have to insult me, then send me a PM and I'll read it. I may not insult you back because that does very little to advance an argument. It does very little to allow any of us to come to any kind of understanding.

<a href='http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html' target='_blank'>Ad hominem fallacy explained here</a>
<a href='http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html' target='_blank'>Strawman fallacy explained here</a>
12-21-2003 12:02 AM
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calling_the_hogs Offline
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Show me the real documents, to my face. Then we'll talk.

Otherwise, we all know it's liberal propoganda.

If you took business law, and didn't know about those contracts, you went to one sorry a** school or had a sorry a** professor

Every company has the same basic regulations when it comes to necessities such as health insurance for full-time employees. This again is something you should've learned in business law. Wal-Mart has these regulations like everyone else.

And why would they lie? Easy. What greedy person wouldn't try to start something to get publicity? Come on!

You know nothing about Wal-Mart health benefits. You just read what some people are claiming to say. My family HAS these benefits. I know my information on them for FACT.

Why would journalists lie? Ask the NY Times, who has had to fire journalists for fake stories....hype and pub and greed are huge.

If you want civility, then get off the radical soapbox. It's ok to discuss presidential issues and argue over things like that. If you bring radical stuff like you did...especially this BS, trying to convince people of stuff which I know to be untrue, then you will not get civility, you will get anger from someone who will fight this to the bitter end because I know you are dead wrong, and with friends and family working and living off of Wal-Mart health insurance, I will defend them and the jobs they do and fight all day to insure people don't believe this BS you send

WPS

WPS
12-21-2003 12:16 AM
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joebordenrebel Offline
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Speaking of attacks that have absolutely nothing to do with the point at hand (well, it was your idea, CTH), are you sure that ALL the Arkie posters on your board are supporting those troops? I have a feeling I know one who's not. . .but anyway.

I hate getting tit without giving tat. :chair:

Are you going to cry now? Do you know how to cry? How about crying for all those poor PT schmucks who DON'T have any benis whatsoever (I'd be surprised if that figure even approached 50% of the WM employee pool). Why don't you ask them how they like their insurance?

You creeps really suck s#%t, you know?

Okay, okay. Let me get to your "points."

Quote:Show me the real documents, to my face. Then we'll talk. Otherwise, we all know it's liberal propoganda.

Do you insist on looking at all original documents for everything? WOW! What an incredibly principled guy you are! You even read the NAMBLA briefing, too? And met everybody involved so you understood the issue?

How do you find the time, what with your Wally friendly company pushing you to work 80+ hours a week?

Do your kids know your name?

Quote:And why would they lie? Easy. What greedy person wouldn't try to start something to get publicity? Come on!


Yeah, those publicity hounds are making money hand over FIST! WAY more cash than Wally world, I guarantee! You got me there! :roflol:

Could you just cash out and walk away now? Or do you want to stop crying and argue like a friggin' man?

DIS-missed! :ownd:
12-21-2003 01:23 AM
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rickheel Wrote:United State's largest private employer, 2003: Wal-Mart

Heck yeah!!!!!!! Shut those capatalist bastards down!!!!!!!! Then you folks can fuss about the unemployment numbers!!!!!
To reiterate.
12-21-2003 09:29 AM
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KlutzDio I Offline
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RebelKev Wrote:
rickheel Wrote:United State's largest private employer, 2003:&nbsp; Wal-Mart

Heck yeah!!!!!!!&nbsp; Shut those capatalist bastards down!!!!!!!! Then you folks can fuss about the unemployment numbers!!!!!
To reiterate.
Are you suggesting the largest employer in the U.S. has a right or some justification for bilking the government?
12-21-2003 11:10 AM
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[quote="KlutzDio I"] [quote="RebelKev"] [quote="rickheel"] United State's largest private employer, 2003:
12-21-2003 12:21 PM
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KlutzDio I Offline
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RebelKev Wrote:I am reiterating the hypocrisy. Where was your outrage at Global Crossing, you know, where Terry McCauliffe turned about 100K into 18 Mil just before they went under.
If you give me some info on this affair, I could formulate an opinion on it. At this point, however, I don't know what you are talking about in relation to Global Crossing. I don't know who Terry McAulliffe is. Does he work for Wal-Mart or was he some WM manager fired for speaking out on the quality of their company offered insurance?

RebelKev, I'm not a Democrat and stating that more than several times, you don't accept that statement. I could give a fock about the Democratic party because they are just as evil as the Repooblicans are. In fact, all politicians suck and their primary job is to get reelected, not represent anyone.

On another note, you have a great knack for interjecting red herrings into the discussion and now I have to provide you a link on what that is, because obviously you don't know!

<a href='http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html' target='_blank'>Red Herring fallacy explained</a>

The next link is how to construct a logical argument, because obviously RebelKev, you are lacking in this area:

<a href='http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html' target='_blank'>Constructing a logical argument</a>
12-21-2003 01:57 PM
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joebordenrebel Offline
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Kev, you are an example of what's wrong with public education.

Critical thinking is *critical* and necessary to the vigilent upkeep of a democracy.

All you do is say "Ditto" like a one-man chorus of toads.

You ain't the sharpest tool in the crayon box, is you? :roflol:
12-21-2003 11:24 PM
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joebordenrebel Wrote:Kev, you are an example of what's wrong with public education.

Critical thinking is *critical* and necessary to the vigilent upkeep of a democracy.

All you do is say "Ditto" like a one-man chorus of toads.

You ain't the sharpest tool in the crayon box, is you? :roflol:
Public school? Remember, I am a conservative.....born with a silver spoon in my mouth. I went to McCallie.

<a href='http://www.mccallie.org/' target='_blank'>School for us rich people</a>

Sad part about it is......your IQ wouldn't hold a candle to mine. Hell, you're too damn dumb to realize that I'm NOT a Republican.
12-22-2003 12:09 AM
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