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Israeli-Palestinian conflict
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nate jonesacc Offline
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Post: #21
 
T-Monay820 Wrote:
nate jonesacc Wrote:
T-Monay820 Wrote:
nate jonesacc Wrote:the world would just forget about Palestine, sort of like how we forgot about 4-5 million Jews during the Holocaust.
What are you talking about? Forgeting the Jews? We hardly knew what was going on over there because we chose to be isolationist at the start of the war. I highly doubt that Hitler was over there showing propaganda movies about his camps all over the world. Its hard to do something about a problem you don't know exists. Most of our troops didn't realize the camps existed till the stumbled upon one.
We didn't know they existed cause we really didn't care that much... people in Germany knew... it was damn obvious that Hitler was doing something wrong once he invaded Poland... it took us... what? 3 years after he invaded Poland to do something about it?
Remember what all the pacifists were crying? "Isolationist!" We didn't know they existed because there was no way to know. And most people didn't want us to act when Poland was invaded, nor france. It wasn't till Pearl Harbor that people decided to act.
Yes there was a way to know... everyone in Germany knew... we knew that Hitler was invading other countries... We didn't act because we didn't care about Europe then.

Pacifists were crying the same thing before we invaded Iraq... guess what... we still invaded.
05-12-2003 07:21 PM
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T-Monay820 Offline
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Post: #22
 
nate jonesacc Wrote:Yes there was a way to know... everyone in Germany knew... we knew that Hitler was invading other countries... We didn't act because we didn't care about Europe then.

Pacifists were crying the same thing before we invaded Iraq... guess what... we still invaded.
Very few people knew about the camps (even Germans), and just because a country starts invading other countries doesn't mean it has intentions of genocide. We were acting, what do you think the Lend-Lease program was?
05-12-2003 07:26 PM
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bigolhawg Offline
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Post: #23
 
I havent been putting my two cents in on this subject, but I just want to show my support for nate.

He is a fine example of a conservative who actually thinks about things.

We have actually agreed on the subjects of Isreal and France, and many times we have been in disagreement on other subjects.

You see this RebelKev? Its an example of someone who actually looks at every issue and forms his own opinion, instead of just following what a good conservative would think.
05-12-2003 10:08 PM
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Post: #24
 
bigolhawg Wrote:You see this RebelKev?  Its an example of someone who actually looks at every issue and forms his own opinion, instead of just following what a good conservative would think.
Those ARE my opinions.


...and what makes Nate a "Good Conservative"? Because he agrees with you? BS.



<!--EDIT|RebelKev|May 13 2003, 08:38 AM-->
05-13-2003 07:32 AM
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rickheel Offline
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Post: #25
 
I dont think you can pick a "side" on this issue. The real issue for them IMHO is access to the Holy Land. Israel controls it now and they will not give up control unless they are forced to do so. I dont see anyone forcing them. The US wont, and couldn't if they wanted to. If it was up to me, I would make Israel give complete and total access to the followers of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. If this does not happen, the bombings and Military strikes will go on forever. I cannot see any other resolution to the problem. Israel(and followers of Judaism) has no greater claim to these lands than anyone else.
05-13-2003 07:55 AM
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RochesterFalcon Offline
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Post: #26
 
Quote:The US wont, and couldn't if they wanted to.

Several billion dollars do a lot of talking. That's our annual foreign aid package to Israel right now.
05-13-2003 03:32 PM
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nate jonesacc Offline
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Post: #27
 
RochesterFalcon Wrote:
Quote:The US wont, and couldn't if they wanted to.

Several billion dollars do a lot of talking. That's our annual foreign aid package to Israel right now.
I've seen estimates anywhere from 6 billion to 11 billion. It's somewhere in between 8-10 billion, if I had to guess.
05-13-2003 05:45 PM
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nate jonesacc Offline
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Post: #28
 
bigolhawg Wrote:I havent been putting my two cents in on this subject, but I just want to show my support for nate.

He is a fine example of a conservative who actually thinks about things.

We have actually agreed on the subjects of Isreal and France, and many times we have been in disagreement on other subjects.

You see this RebelKev? Its an example of someone who actually looks at every issue and forms his own opinion, instead of just following what a good conservative would think.
You're exactly right... RebelKev seems like the masculinity-tripping conservative who forms opinions around what a "good conservative" should think and not a thoughtful person.

I bet he thinks that Yasser Arafat is best buddies with Osama and Saddam, too. :rolleyes: All arabs are Jihading terrorists. :rolleyes:
05-13-2003 05:51 PM
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Motown Bronco Offline
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Post: #29
 
As far as the "Israeli occupation", why didn't the Palestinians accept the sweetheart deal they were offered in 2000? Israel offered everything but exclusive control over East Jerusalem and the "right of return" of refugees to Israel proper - otherwise the entire West Bank and Gaza would've been given to Arafat, et al, for perpetuity, with joint control over East Jerusalem. The Palestinians said no, and instead of a counteroffer turned and began another intifada.

As far as foreign aid, I looked it up and I found $2.8 billion to Israel, and (as many would be surprised to know) some $80 million to the Palestinian Authority, in 2001. I've seen different figures here and there for both, so I guess it depends on where you look.

I'm pretty much in favor of a "sit on the sidelines" approach when it comes to the Middle East, and play the role of peace broker. That means getting rid of this multibillion welfare aid to Israel (and its surrounding countries for that matter ... we give hundreds of millions to Jordan, Egypt, etc).

In fact, GWB took a hands-off approach to the Middle East when he came into office. However, when things flared up in that region of the world, he was criticized resoundly around the globe for being too uninvolved in world affairs and sticking his head in the sand. :laugh:
05-13-2003 06:01 PM
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T-Monay820 Offline
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Post: #30
 
Lets just add them to Iran and Iraq. So we would now have Iran, Iraq, and Israel, and we can call it Irate.
05-13-2003 06:14 PM
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Motown Bronco Offline
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Post: #31
 
Nate.. just curious on your position...

Do you want the West Bank and Gaza returned immediately to the Palestinians, or the entirety of Israel?

As far as the history of the region, from what I understand, the land, prior to Jewish immigration in the late 1800s, was practically deserted save for Jerusalem (which was tiny itself). There was no development, no water, no trees, etc.

Jewish settlers developed "Palestine" and created jobs and industry relatively-speaking (since it's the turn of the 20th century) and attracted nomadic Arabs to settle near Jewish settlements to work in the new industries.

The whole area was British land at the time, as well, mind you.

Well, the number of Jewish settlers incoming was smaller than the numbers of Arabs reproducing in the area (and moving in). The newcomers simply squatted on the land around the developments and said "mine", since it had been conquered 1000+ years earlier by Muslims so it is Muslim land in aeternis; regardless of the fact that it was Ottoman territory won by British troops in time of war - meaning by the ultimate right, it was British land.

At the very least, it's not even remotely "Palestinian" land, since their only claim is the fact that they sat on it after european Jews came and started developing the area.

The British curtailed Jewish immigration into "Palestine" but did nothing to curtail Muslim squatters from expanding their settlements. About the same time, these squatters declared a holy right to the land and began an uprising against the British, who brutally suppressed them (Sharon has NOTHING on pre-WWII British colonial rulers).

After the holocaust, survivors were allowed to emigrate to Palestine, and afterwards the UN met to partition what was left of the British mandate (90% of the original mandate was given to the Hashemites, who lost a civil war with the Ibn Saud clan, losing control of what is now Saudi Arabia - the Hashemite clan were British vassals, and were rewarded with a homeland) into Jewish and Muslim areas.

But the Muslims were up in arms and declared holy struggle for everything, and got soundly defeated. In 1964, the PLO was formed to drive the Jews into the sea. Only the British-backed Jordanian troops were able to stop the enraged Jewish settlers at the "1967 border". Everybody else was defeated.

The neighboring Arab states exhorted the "Palestinians" to flee during the fighting, until all the Jews had been wiped out. Of course the neighbors didn't want them in *their* territory... As RebelKev alluded to, the Jordanians couldn't keep them out, because the Jordanians controlled the West Bank - as a result, Jordan is 80% Palestinian now, and that is probably why Syria, Egypt and Lebanon didn't want the refugees in their country.

And, as a post script, the tired war horse of moral equivalency, "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" is a load of dung. Freedom fighters don't target civilians. Period. Ever.

George Washington did not burn down the homes of tories in the Revolutionary War. Patrick Henry did not say "Agree with me, or I'll
Give You Death". Innocent Londoners did not burst into flame from bombs and incendiary devices lobbed by American "freedom fighters". Americans hit British bases, British government supply ships, warehouses, fortresses, warships, etc- always striking the government and military, never the people.

Terrorists are evil criminals, never freedom fighters. The cowardly mass murderers go where they think no one can defend themselves, using the cover of civilization to slaughter innocents. And they rationalize it with rhetoric - "Anyone who supports the Israeli regime (read - participates in Israeli society) is a military target".... the personal is the political, yadda yadda.



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05-13-2003 06:16 PM
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nate jonesacc Offline
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Post: #32
 
I think that the Palestinians should be given the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and a substantial hunk of modern day Israel. I also think there should be a 100% ceasefire between the two, and the US should cut Israeli funding by 70%.
05-13-2003 07:35 PM
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Motown Bronco Offline
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Post: #33
 
nate jonesacc Wrote:I think that the Palestinians should be given the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and a substantial hunk of modern day Israel. I also think there should be a 100% ceasefire between the two, and the US should cut Israeli funding by 70%.
Except for the "substantial hunk", I pretty much agree with everything you said.
05-13-2003 09:35 PM
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