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apocalypse dude Offline
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I'm not saying he's not a good player; he is. However, he has repeatedly come up short in big moments. He was a complete non-factor in last year's final. He lost 3 games this year from the charity stripe. He doesn't play defense. He is supposedly the best PG in the country besides jason kidd, but has a 1.4/1 turonver to assist ratio. Not even to mention, he was all but named POY before the year started.

Please discuss.

<small>[ March 21, 2002, 11:11 PM: Message edited by: apocalypse dude ]</small>
03-21-2002 11:10 PM
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Sarah Offline
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yet... I have to say that most of us would kill for just a percentage of his talent...
03-21-2002 11:28 PM
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Sarah Offline
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and PLEASE dont blame the three loses on JWill... those losses were definitely a TEAM effort-- you can't take a 40 minute game and reduce it to last minute free throw-- granted-- we could have used those points-- but REALLY, we shouldn't have NEEDED them...you know???
03-21-2002 11:30 PM
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TheHumanBullet Offline
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Apocalypse Dude, please read quote below.
03-21-2002 11:46 PM
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apocalypse dude Offline
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Hey, I said he's a good player. Maybe he's a victim of his own success. Even if he hit all these free throws,he still would not be as good as he was hyped to be. There is no way. I mean no way he is the 2nd best point guard in the world. Frankly the concept is ludicrous. He was bestowed greatness before he earned it. That's all.

And might I add, I resent that fact that I should be thought a fool for voicing my opinion. Is that not what these message boards are for? If I were you I'd take a good look in the mirror.
03-21-2002 11:54 PM
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jdoc1 Offline
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Here are Jason's final stats in his 3 year career at Duke:

2081 points
395 rebounds
644 assists
235 steals
14 blocks

Only David Thompson, Len Chappel, and Dennis Scott finished with more points after their first 3 years in the league. No player who only played 3 years in the league has more assists, and only Ed Cota, Bobby Hurley, Chris Corchiani, and Steve Blake had more assists after 3 years of play(The first 3 are the top 3 assists men in NCAA history, and Blake is likely to join them in the top 4). He will also finish with the most steals of any player only to play 3 years, with only Juan Dixon and Johnny Rhodes having more steals in their first 3 years. In those three categories, he finishes tied for 22nd in scoring alltime, 17th in assists alltime, and 13th in steals alltime.

Projections, had he played a senior year, just based on his averages per year(which would obviously be lower than his potential 4th season totals) would have him finishing 1st alltime in scoring, 4th in assists, and 4th in steals.

Just a little perspective for the discussion.
03-22-2002 12:01 PM
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nate jonesacc Offline
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Post: #7
 
You can call a player great when he does things like Jason did. Not just great numbers, but good things out of the ordinary.

10 point comeback against MD
single handily bringing Duke back into it against UK
nearly brining Duke back into it against UVA, FSU
scoring 34 points, 7 rebounds and 8 assists against a top 3 team.

Things like that are why you are called great.
03-22-2002 01:14 PM
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DamascusTerp2 Offline
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Post: #8
 
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by nate jonesacc:

10 point comeback against MD
single handily bringing Duke back into it against UK
nearly brining Duke back into it against UVA, FSU
scoring 34 points, 7 rebounds and 8 assists against a top 3 team.

Things like that are why you are called great.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Let's address these four items....

10 point comeback...i was there, what he did was indeed spectacular, BUT if Steve Blake is in the game...right

Kentucky Game...no doubt, one of the greatest individual performances of this season

UVA & FSU games...I don't know what you were watching dookie, but he missed the FT's in the FSU game, and how can you say he brought them back against UVA....wasn't Duke dominating that game mid way through the 2nd half...right

Scoring 34 points, 7 rebounds and 8 assists against a top 3 team...a great performance, but has been done before.

JW will indeed go down as one of the best to play in the ACC, but "greatness"...no way.

Greatness is David Thompson, Len Bias, etc...

<small>[ March 23, 2002, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: DamascusTerp2 ]</small>
03-23-2002 03:29 PM
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Terpy Offline
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The loss at FSU was completely JWillys fault if he had made one of the six free throws Duke would have won. In the UVA he did a great job trying to get them the win after UVA came back but he again missed free throws in a situation that could have won the game for UVA. Against Indiana he missed the game tying free throw. He had one of the worse games of the year against Maryland. My point is he means so much to that team and despite all the other great talent when he doesnt play well they lose. Yes, he was great in the win over Kentucky and the first game against Maryland. As for you talking about the gone in 54 seconds thing, how is that relevant to POY for this season?
03-23-2002 03:44 PM
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Terpy Offline
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oops sorry I guess this thread wasnt about POY but oh well.
03-23-2002 03:45 PM
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techfan4 Offline
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Post: #11
 
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Terpy:
The loss at FSU was completely JWillys fault if he had made one of the six free throws Duke would have won. In the UVA he did a great job trying to get them the win after UVA came back but he again missed free throws in a situation that could have won the game for UVA. Against Indiana he missed the game tying free throw. He had one of the worse games of the year against Maryland. My point is he means so much to that team and despite all the other great talent when he doesnt play well they lose. Yes, he was great in the win over Kentucky and the first game against Maryland. As for you talking about the gone in 54 seconds thing, how is that relevant to POY for this season?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I have to go with ApocDude and Terpy on this one...Jason got lots of recognition, but he couldn't take his team to the championship...if Dixon does, then Dixon deserves it, if Gooden does, then he deserves it...

Last Year, Battier was a big part of Duke's success, and I personally think they couldn't of won the championship without him... so all the sports writers say, OK, Who's next to step up and win it for them? Next in line was JWill, but JWill didn't lead his team like Battier did...Battier showed his emotions, scraped, took charges, but best of all, a leader. Williams, ball hogged, got lucky, got lucky, and got lucky again...

JWill does NOT deserve the POY, and did NOT deserve all the recognition...

Personally, I think Dixon is better than JWill... Its just the Duke tradition is why JWill got so much recognition...

Next Year, it'll be Duhon <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />
03-23-2002 08:37 PM
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nate jonesacc Offline
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You have to be kidding, Terpy. Jason was the sole reason Duke even HAD A CHANCE against FSU. Plus, you say if he had hit 2 of those FTs, Duke would have won? The future changes according to the past, just to let you know.
03-23-2002 09:26 PM
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Terpy Offline
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Do you realize that dook lost because he missed 6 free throws at the end of the game? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />
03-23-2002 10:38 PM
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nate jonesacc Offline
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Would Duke ever be in the position to possibly win the game if it wasn't for Jason Williams? NO!
03-23-2002 10:40 PM
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nate jonesacc Offline
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He also didn't miss all 6 of those late. He only missed 3, maybe 4 of them, late in the game.
03-23-2002 10:41 PM
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apocalypse dude Offline
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Big Case:
Jason Williams is the greatest guard in acc history period. better than hurley, better than ford. no player that has ever played in this league poscessed the ability to take over a game like him. what has he done? he would pass johnny dawkins as duke's all time leading scorer if he stayed his final year. dawkins is the 2nd leader scorer in the history of the NCAA btw. he's a national champion, he averaged 27 ppg in tournment play last year leading duke to the final four. that also ranks top 5 in NCAA history. people always focus on the negatives of a player's career but easily forget all those 30 point games, 10 assists games, and nights when he single handly carried duke to a win. he did it in 2001 and he did this year. jason williams defines the word greatness in every aspect.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Interesting theory, considering he never even won the POY in the ACC. <img border="0" alt="[Laughing]" title="" src="graemlins/laughing.gif" />
03-24-2002 01:21 PM
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techfan4 Offline
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by techfan4:
I have to go with ApocDude and Terpy on this one...Jason got lots of recognition, but he couldn't take his team to the championship...if Dixon does, then Dixon deserves it, if Gooden does, then he deserves it...

Last Year, Battier was a big part of Duke's success, and I personally think they couldn't of won the championship without him... so all the sports writers say, OK, Who's next to step up and win it for them? Next in line was JWill, but JWill didn't lead his team like Battier did...Battier showed his emotions, scraped, took charges, but best of all, a leader. Williams, ball hogged, got lucky, got lucky, and got lucky again...

JWill does NOT deserve the POY, and did NOT deserve all the recognition...

Personally, I think Dixon is better than JWill... Its just the Duke tradition is why JWill got so much recognition...

Next Year, it'll be Duhon <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">and I forgot to put, that first it was McCloed, Carrawell, Brand, Avery, Battier, Williams, and soon to be Duhon...yeah thats a great list of players, but none except Battier were Dominant
03-24-2002 04:28 PM
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apocalypse dude Offline
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Big Case:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by apocalypse dude:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Big Case:
Jason Williams is the greatest guard in acc history period. better than hurley, better than ford. no player that has ever played in this league poscessed the ability to take over a game like him. what has he done? he would pass johnny dawkins as duke's all time leading scorer if he stayed his final year. dawkins is the 2nd leader scorer in the history of the NCAA btw. he's a national champion, he averaged 27 ppg in tournment play last year leading duke to the final four. that also ranks top 5 in NCAA history. people always focus on the negatives of a player's career but easily forget all those 30 point games, 10 assists games, and nights when he single handly carried duke to a win. he did it in 2001 and he did this year. jason williams defines the word greatness in every aspect.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Interesting theory, considering he never even won the POY in the ACC. <img border="0" alt="[Laughing]" title="" src="graemlins/laughing.gif" /> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">also interesting considering juan dixon has never won the acc title, been national player of the year, or won a national title. <img border="0" alt="[Laughing]" title="" src="graemlins/laughing.gif" /> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Eh, interesting retort considering this thread has nothing to do with Juan. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />
03-24-2002 07:39 PM
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apocalypse dude Offline
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Oh, by the way. Juan is on his way to the final 4. <img border="0" alt="[Laughing]" title="" src="graemlins/laughing.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Laughing]" title="" src="graemlins/laughing.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Laughing]" title="" src="graemlins/laughing.gif" />
03-24-2002 07:40 PM
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nate jonesacc Offline
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Until Maryland wins the NCAA championship this year, Juan will not have a better track record, or at least as good of one, as Jason.
03-24-2002 08:11 PM
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