While you are chewing on that, let me ask you another question:

Do you think that people under our civilian justice system -- organized crime figures, drugs gangs, etc... should be waterboarded in detention. DO you think they should be subjected to the above treatment, where they are shackled in stress positions and made to think they are about to be electrocuted?

I'm not asking what happens, or what is allowed to happen. I am asking what you THINK should happen, in your perfect world.

other Abu Ghraib photos..

Quote:If I were to show you these pictures in 2003, and told you they were from a secret Iranian prison for dissidents, would you have been surprised?

I would be happy they haven't been beheaded, their hands chopped off, starved, fingernails pulled off....all the bones in the bottom of their feet broken then forced to run a mile...and that they were alive and hadn't been beheaded.

OUGwave Wrote:Do you think that people under our civilian justice system -- organized crime figures, drugs gangs, etc... should be waterboarded in detention. DO you think they should be subjected to the above treatment, where they are shackled in stress positions and made to think they are about to be electrocuted?

no, not even relevant to the discussion. It should only be used by the CIA in select circumstances. any sexually perverted bad apples like abu ghraib should be prosecuted like they have been. Something that will not happen in countries like iran or saddams iraq.

and the case you keep trying to cite as proof of something you keep ignoring the acquital in the matter, which should tell you something but obviously isn't.

Quote:I'm not asking what happens, or what is allowed to happen. I am asking what you THINK should happen, in your perfect world.

in your perfect world, how should a terrorist be captured and treated nicely. If he fights back should you just run away and instead of hitting him over the head? A terrorist that just killed your friends, is telling you he will track down your wife and kids and kill them and in general is being hostile and resistent? I got news for you, they aren't sitting around holding hands and singing kumbaya.

Was the torture that occurred at Abu Ghraib horrific and a black eye for America's image? Yes.

Am I against what went on in those photos? Yes.

Has Abu Ghraib received 1,000x more worldwide attention and condemnation than every gulag, torture cell, labor camp, and "re-education" camp in recent history? Yes.

Are those other terrible places a matter of official state procedure, while Abu Ghraib was done by a local team of thugs (i.e. loose cannons)? Yes.

Does the fact that Abu Ghraib's culprit was the U.S., while those other terrible places are in not-so-capitalist countries, have an influence on things? Yes.

OUGwave Wrote:Do you think that people under our civilian justice system -- organized crime figures, drugs gangs, etc... should be waterboarded in detention. DO you think they should be subjected to the above treatment, where they are shackled in stress positions and made to think they are about to be electrocuted?

This is your problem, you see no difference in these animals that would behead you, and your entire family, and common criminals. These people want to destroy our way of life, our country, and US, and people like you and Dogger want to see them treated "humane". **** those bastards.

GGniner Wrote:other Abu Ghraib photos..

Should we be congratulated for doing the things we're expected to do?

Are the expectations higher for the US? Yes.

Should they be? You're damn straight.

OUGwave Wrote:

GGniner Wrote:other Abu Ghraib photos..

Should we be congratulated for doing the things we're expected to do?

Are the expectations higher for the US? Yes.

Should they be? You're damn straight.

Should the GDamn media ONLY post graphic photos? Or should they have a DUTY to portray ALL news? Answer THAT for me. If not, I see it no other way than the fact that they are aiding our enemy.

GGniner Wrote:

Quote:If I were to show you these pictures in 2003, and told you they were from a secret Iranian prison for dissidents, would you have been surprised?

I would be happy they haven't been beheaded, their hands chopped off, starved, fingernails pulled off....all the bones in the bottom of their feet broken then forced to run a mile...and that they were alive and hadn't been beheaded.

I doubt that. You wouldn't be surprised and you would decry them as an example of the depravity of our enemies -- AND RIGHTLY SO.

Quote:

OUGwave Wrote:Do you think that people under our civilian justice system -- organized crime figures, drugs gangs, etc... should be waterboarded in detention. DO you think they should be subjected to the above treatment, where they are shackled in stress positions and made to think they are about to be electrocuted?

no, not even relevant to the discussion. It should only be used by the CIA in select circumstances. any sexually perverted bad apples like abu ghraib should be prosecuted like they have been. Something that will not happen in countries like iran or saddams iraq.

and the case you keep trying to cite as proof of something you keep ignoring the acquital in the matter, which should tell you something but obviously isn't.

It is very relevant to the discussion. Answer the question and you will see why. Do you think that these activities SHOULD happen in the US civilian justice system?

Quote:I'm not asking what happens, or what is allowed to happen. I am asking what you THINK should happen, in your perfect world.

in your perfect world, how should a terrorist be captured and treated nicely. If he fights back should you just run away and instead of hitting him over the head? A terrorist that just killed your friends, is telling you he will track down your wife and kids and kill them and in general is being hostile and resistent? I got news for you, they aren't sitting around holding hands and singing kumbaya.[/quote]

This is a load of complete crap. I've never said anything like that. I am all for hunting terrorists down and interrogating them and prosecuting them. You don't need to violate human rights in order to fight terrorism. That is a bullsh*t false choice.

In my perfect world, we would follow longstanding interrogation techniques and practices this country has used throughout its history which do not amount to torture. There are many, many things you can do to be coercive short of waterboarding and other forms of torture. Torture is the lazy man's way to interrogate.

Now answer my question. Do you think hat in your perfect world, we should use these techniques in our civilian justice system? Its a simple answer. I'll wait.

Prosecuting them? That's ANOTHER problem with you. There is no such thing as a "stateless terrorist". They are ALL financed and backed by a country(countries). This is a war, not a f'n criminal matter.

RebelKev Wrote:

OUGwave Wrote:

GGniner Wrote:other Abu Ghraib photos..

Should we be congratulated for doing the things we're expected to do?

Are the expectations higher for the US? Yes.

Should they be? You're damn straight.

Should the GDamn media ONLY post graphic photos? Or should they have a DUTY to portray ALL news? Answer THAT for me. If not, I see it no other way than the fact that they are aiding our enemy.

The American people have a right to know what their government is doing in their name. The fact that the media focuses on the bad is because the bad is an outrage, while the good is expected.

You don't get a pat on the head for doing the expected.

yes and the public needs to be reminded of American Exceptionalism from time to time because of liberals like you and the media. They also need to be reminded of who the enemy really is, which the same group suppresses from the public.

this point above sums it up

Quote:Has Abu Ghraib received 1,000x more worldwide attention and condemnation than every gulag, torture cell, labor camp, and "re-education" camp in recent history? Yes

RebelKev Wrote:Prosecuting them? That's ANOTHER problem with you. There is no such thing as a "stateless terrorist". They are ALL financed and backed by a country(countries). This is a war, not a f'n criminal matter.

Ok, then we have another system for that.

Treat them like Prisoners of War.

OUGwave Wrote:Ok, then we have another system for that.

Treat them like Prisoners of War.

What, and pay them?

GGniner Wrote:yes and the public needs to be reminded of American Exceptionalism from time to time because of liberals like you and the media. They also need to be reminded of who the enemy really is, which the same group suppresses from the public.

this point above sums it up

Quote:Has Abu Ghraib received 1,000x more worldwide attention and condemnation than every gulag, torture cell, labor camp, and "re-education" camp in recent history? Yes

And it should, because we are invading countries in an effort, in your words, to bring freedom and liberty to the people of the middle east.

So, yeah, its relevant to the rest of the world that as soon as we get there we move into Saddam's old torture chambers and start dragging naked prisoners around in dog leashes and pretending to electrocute them and having them raped and killed in custody.

OUGwave Wrote:The American people have a right to know what their government is doing in their name. The fact that the media focuses on the bad is because the bad is an outrage, while the good is expected.

You don't get a pat on the head for doing the expected.

Wrong. The American people do NOT have the right to know everything that's going on in terms of national security. That's bull****. Our methods, tactics, etc., should NOT be aired to the public because, guess what Lite Brite, our ENEMIES ARE ALSO IN THE PUBLIC.

RebelKev Wrote:

OUGwave Wrote:Ok, then we have another system for that.

Treat them like Prisoners of War.

What, and pay them?

No, but don't torture them.

Look, you can't have it both ways. Either they are murderers who need to be prosecuted or they are soldiers in a war.

Either way they have fundamental human rights that need to be respected.

That is, if we want to live up to our creed as a nation.

OUGwave Wrote:And it should, because we are invading countries in an effort, in your words, to bring freedom and liberty to the people of the middle east.

If you think so. I'd say it has more to do with the fact that that is more "humane" than dropping a damn Nuke on the top of the Middle East. Which would you prefer? I'm all for the Nuke myself.

RebelKev Wrote:

OUGwave Wrote:The American people have a right to know what their government is doing in their name. The fact that the media focuses on the bad is because the bad is an outrage, while the good is expected.

You don't get a pat on the head for doing the expected.

Wrong. The American people do NOT have the right to know everything that's going on in terms of national security. That's bullspit. Our methods, tactics, etc., should NOT be aired to the public because, guess what Lite Brite, our ENEMIES ARE ALSO IN THE PUBLIC.

The American people have a right to know when crimes have been committed and human rights have been abused. Full Stop.

There is nothing more fundamental to a democracy than that.

OUGwave Wrote:No, but don't torture them.

Look, you can't have it both ways. Either they are murderers who need to be prosecuted or they are soldiers in a war.

Either way they have fundamental human rights that need to be respected.

That is, if we want to live up to our creed as a nation.

So, you think we're torturing people at Guantanamo? As for Abu Ghraib, most of that was done by a bunch of idiotic National Guardsmen and no, I wouldn't have participated in that. As for waterboarding, sorry, I don't think that should be considered torture AT ALL.

OUGwave Wrote:The American people have a right to know when crimes have been committed and human rights have been abused. Full Stop.

There is nothing more fundamental to a democracy than that.

Again, wrong. The CIA is involved in crimes on a daily basis in the name of national security. Do you honestly think trying to prevent terrorist acts can only be achieved by conversing with Saints? I'd like to know what Defense Contractor YOU work for, because it damn sure isn't in the Intel/Field Operations field.