wvucrazed Wrote:

MU88 Wrote:

Hoquista Wrote:Academics will be 'overlooked' if the school is located in a populous state where they are the ONLY university in that state.

Never. Absolutely not. No way. Can I disagree any stronger? The Big 10 is an academic conference, as well as, an athletic one. The Presidents are academic snobs. If a school doesn't fit academically with the other member schools, it has no chance. While the AD's and Delaney may push for such a school, the Presidents would not admit them. Athletics is simply not that important to them.

Absolutely right. The Big 10 would never lower themselves to add someone that they felt didn't fit their academic profile.

It was a POOR choice of words on my part. What I meant is that the Big10 will look at many candidates. However, one school may not be as 'good' academically as another - that is what I meant.

I wasn't talking about the Big10 adding a Tier 3 or Tier 4 university. If it was based on academics alone (and that is research funding in essentially science and engineering - which is what Big10 type schools do) then Pitt would get the nod. Obviously that is not the case. There are other factors that matter too.

brista21 Wrote:Now Chess has mentioned what about an expansion to 14 given the TV Network. While I actually agree it has some legs to it I don't think westward would be where they would go, it'd be eastward. Solidify the east and give PSU and Rutgers/Syracuse some of their old rivalries. My guess if they went to 14 would be Cuse, Rutgers, and WVU. That would end the Big East conference and while I think all three of us would go heavy heartedly on some level we'd be somewhat ok with it as we were back with PSU and still with each other. The question is does that constitute an eastern conference (much in the same way as the BE is) with Temple irrelevant, BC in the ACC, Pitt basically being backstabbed for the umpteenth time, and the other 4 of those 7 in one conference. And UConn is still in its infancy, perhaps the ACC decides not to be outdone and grabs UConn and Pitt. The whole thing actually has me quite upset and nothing has actually happened yet. But let's face it where there's smoke means there's fire we lived through the ACC expansion after all. I like the idea of getting that research money and getting to work with schools like the University of Chicago. But to me my heart is here in the East where we have emerging rivalries with every team in the conference. I just hope if all this goes down and we do leave that we do so very publicly, honestly, and upfront unlike BC. And as I said I'd rather it be a 3 team expansion so we're not with Penn State on some island. Omni's been hinting at this for days now. Let's hope this not some kind of fire and all remains as it has been for over a year a conference poised to come into its own.

I'll be completely honest here, I'm thrilled this is happening. I can't stand the current alignment. I can't stand Mike Tranghese and his self agrandizing attitude that insists the Big East in it's current form at all costs.

Louisville is in good shape, we'll land somewhere on our feet.

The people who should be pissed are the programs dumping resources into their departments and attempting to build in the new league, emerging programs like UCONN, UC and USF.

How many are really surprised with a development like this? I certainly am not, many of us will be saying 'I told you so' as this plays out.

MU88 Wrote:

Hoquista Wrote:Do you think Pitt would get invited over Nebraska or Missouri even though academics matter to the Big10?

There are other negatives about Pitt. No added market, Urban school, etc What I am saying is the Big 10 won't expand if it means adding a school that the Presidents believe is an academic inferior.

Yes. I know that.

Again, it was an POOR choice of words on my part to use the word 'overlook' - Missouri doesn't have the same academic qualifications as say Pitt BUT they do meet the minimum academic criteria that would get them into the Big10. Missouri is obviously a really good school.

The addition isn't going to be a Tier 3 or 4 school as I said in that previous post - they obviously have to meet some high standard. All the Big10 institutions are great academic schools. Obviously Pitt doesn't meet the athletic or market requirements of the Big 10 either as I know very well.

wvucrazed Wrote:

L-yes Wrote:The serious football members will make every effort to look elsewhere I assure you.

And how will a split alter that? Even after a split, if the ACC picks up the phone and calls, or the Big 10, or SEC, any current (or future) BE school would make the move. And you really couldn't blame them.

What is the benefit exactly in leaving behind the eastern media markets and major BB powers like Villanova, G-town, etc? How will that add value to our football league? I'm really curious to know.

A split creates stability in relationships amongst member institutions. It demonstrates commitment and encourages year round interaction across the athletic spectrum. It becomes something more than a purely financial endeavour. Everyone is working to the same ends; in the current alignment everyone is working for their own interests.

Pitino called the Big East a 'corporation' and imo that nails it, it's a faceless cash generating entitiy lacking an identity.

As for leaving behind the eastern markets of Nova basketball and GTown that's up to the leftovers to discover. I suppose they could jump in with some CUSA fugees if CUSA would want to join up with them but have you ever considered that there won't be enough football programs in the conference for a viable football league?

I think many of you are over reacting. There's really only one situation that would destroy the Big East and that Situation is the least likely.

Here's a bunch of things that can happen.

1. Big Ten asks ND, ND says no and

a. Does nothing: This is the most likely to happen and the status quote remains the same.

b. Invites a Big 12 team. This is the most like to happen if the Big ten adds anyone. Missouri has talked about for years. Expect the Big 12 to split if this happens.

c. Invites a Big East School. (Cuse or Rutgers). The Big East would just add a new school and maybe split.

2. Big Ten asks ND ND says yes: This has a very little chance of happening cause it there was a chance ND would already be in the Big 10. But if this was to happen, expect the BE to split.

3. Big Ten adds 14 schools (RU, SU, UM) causing a huge chain reaction, aka the SEC and the ACC going 14 too.

This causes the SEC to either take schools from the ACC (Gtech, FSU, Miami, Clemson), Big East (WVU, UL).

Now the ACC has to add a few schools too (Uconn, Pitt, WVU, UL).

Now the Pac will be force to add two schools since all BCS conference will have championship games (texas and tamu).

Big 12 will add some too(UTah, TCU, BYU, Boise) .

This will kill Big East football leaving it as a basketball conference. USF and Cinci will be sent back to the CUSA or join the MAC.

MWC and WAC will remerge and boot unnecessary schools.

All remaining schools end up in the Sunbelt

Of course this is by far the least likely to happen, even more unlikely than ND joining a conference.

L-yes Wrote:Pitino called the Big East a 'corporation' and imo that nails it, it's a faceless cash generating entitiy lacking an identity.

I think given the direction of college athletics, a "corporation" is exactly what ALL the leagues are turning into. We can choose to be proactive and bold, or be swept aside. I don't think it's faceless at all. The Big East has an identity, and value as a brand. We need to make it stronger rather than rip it up, IMHO.

We can have the relationships and interaction you seek by adding 2 members and splitting into two 9-team sub-leagues under the Big East umbrella. Have the football league w/ a more distinct identity, but also be tied to the major eastern markets for our television goals. If bigger is better and the focus is going to be on TV, our hybrid league might serve us very well.

There will be enough football teams to keep the league floating because IF it happens everyone wont be leaving at once.
I know everyone is looking at the worst case scenario where the Big10, SEC and ACC all decided to jump to 14 at the same time.
That wont be the case. The first step would be Big 10 adding ONE team, then later maybe adding two with SEC going after that.
As I said it wont all be from BE. While I see Big10 raiding BE for Rutgers. If they decide to go 14, I see them going in the Mizzo and another B12 team.
The SEC will go for Texas and Texas AM first and after that it will try raiding ACC.
The ACC would be the most likely to raid the BE AFTER the SEC has done so.

If either FSU or Miami leaves the ACC, then USF becomes a viable candidate for them.

Im not really worry the most likely impact to BE if anything happens is that Rutgers goes to Big10 and that still is not a very likely possibility. If that happens the BE adds one of the CUSA schools.

L-yes Wrote:A split creates stability in relationships amongst member institutions. It demonstrates commitment and encourages year round interaction across the athletic spectrum. It becomes something more than a purely financial endeavour. Everyone is working to the same ends; in the current alignment everyone is working for their own interests.

What stability? Any BE football school would leave the conference for another BCS conference for one reason, money. Unless the BE payouts increase, that will always be the case, split or no split. Almost all conferences at the 1-A are a purely financial endeavor. The split BE would not the Ivy League, where the financial aspect of sports don't matter. As for working toward a single goal, they are, maximizing revenue. The BE split schools are never going to be the Big Ten or SEC because of history and geographic issues. Wishing it true, isn't going to make it happen. You think adding ECU, Memphis and UCF is going to make everyone in the BE split happy? You are nuts. Rutgers, SU and UL wold be working their heinies off to get into a better conference. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

MU88 Wrote:

L-yes Wrote:A split creates stability in relationships amongst member institutions. It demonstrates commitment and encourages year round interaction across the athletic spectrum. It becomes something more than a purely financial endeavour. Everyone is working to the same ends; in the current alignment everyone is working for their own interests.

What stability? Any BE football school would leave the conference for another BCS conference for one reason, money. Unless the BE payouts increase, that will always be the case, split or no split...

Rutgers, SU and UL wold be working their heinies off to get into a better conference. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

And rather than work their heinies off trying to get into a better conference, hopefully they will be working together to come up with a way to make this a conference on a par with the B10, ACC, and SEC.

Perhaps the BTN can give them some ideas as to how to accentuate the strengths of the Big East while reducing/eliminating the weaknesses for the benefit of all?

Cheers,
Neil

wvucrazed Wrote:

L-yes Wrote:Pitino called the Big East a 'corporation' and imo that nails it, it's a faceless cash generating entitiy lacking an identity.

I think given the direction of college athletics, a "corporation" is exactly what ALL the leagues are turning into. We can choose to be proactive and bold, or be swept aside. I don't think it's faceless at all. The Big East has an identity, and value as a brand. We need to make it stronger rather than rip it up, IMHO.

We can have the relationships and interaction you seek by adding 2 members and splitting into two 9-team sub-leagues under the Big East umbrella. Have the football league w/ a more distinct identity, but also be tied to the major eastern markets for our television goals. If bigger is better and the focus is going to be on TV, our hybrid league might serve us very well.

You and I are on the same page with the exception of definition in the league. The league is faceless like it or not in large part because of the numbers involved, who plays what sports and who doesen't and the fact that rivalries from athletic season to season are not encouraged, see Louisville/WVU.

The umbrella league is fine and dandy with me. Lets get it done, fire up the Big East Network and return to being an innovative force in college athletics instead of a reactionary relic on its deathbed. I've seen very little to give me hope that the latter is happening or has any possibility of happening.

Hell it was only a week ago that ed pastoling was singing the praises of an Army/Navy quazi association with the league. This league has a Frankenstein Syndrome which only weakens it's stance in the current climate.

ccbfan Wrote:This will kill Big East football leaving it as a basketball conference. USF and Cinci will be sent back to the CUSA or join the MAC.

SWEET!! We're going to the MAC!!!!!

Just kidding.....hopefully......

MU88 Wrote:

Jackson1011 Wrote:If one of the our schools leave then Eastern football is dead and a new league with a new identity needs to be formed. We will need strong football programs and schools with fans. Memphis, ECU and maybe even Southern Miss (if only USM had a respectable bball program). We can't afford to have Temple sort out their problems under these circumstances

JMO

Jackson

I disagree. Lets look at the facts. First, the value of the BE's tv contract to the football school is greater in the hybred league than in the 8 team spin off. That tells me the bball schools have value. Second, the BE can't find one single available football school to add that would add value to the conference. So, if a BE team leaves, you think a split would happen and the football schools would add 3 of the schools that BE has already has disregarded? I don't think so. I would imagine that if a school left, the 7 football schools would want to maintain their financial position as best they could. That would mean adding the least objectionable candidate and move on. Not splitting.

Now, if the football schools start having enormous success on both the football field and the basketball court, while the bball schools struggle, I definitely see a split happening. That would not be the situation if a school left.

-- I understand what you are saying. However, the real money in college sports is in football. Perhaps it would be wiser to jump to 9 or 10 teams in hopes of building a more stable football oriented league in the future. Five to 10 yrs of BCS recruiting may make Memphis or ECU more valuble then the currently are. Look at what its done for USF. Non football playing members have no potential to help in a conferences most lucrative activiey

JMO

Jackson

Interesing angle from an OSU fan:

Quote:Now that the Big East has proven it is not going away from being a BCS Conference forever more.

The Big Ten is making waves to go after Notre Dame one more time. It is standing by watching Notre Dame solidify its Independence and increasing its association with Big East Scheduling as it drops Big Ten Schools.

In addition, it is clear the Big Ten Channel is having some trouble in demanding the $1.10 per household on cable and running into problems with other Networks and Congress. Consequently, why not cause some buzz to announce it is time to look to expansion. If you look at Delany quote today, it IS the exact same quote he used in 1999 and 2003 and now today in 2007?

Just a guess here but Delany is sending a shot across Notre Dame Bow right now. Once again reminding them, we cannot wait forever. The Big Ten wants Notre Dame because it fits so well for the conference in all aspects, it does not deliver a State TV Market, but a Nation TV Market. The Big Ten Channel is paying each Big Ten School $7.4 million. This is actually higher than Notre Dame whose NBC contract has been reduced to $6.5 today.

Moreover, The Big Ten is noting that Notre Dame is moving way from playing Big Ten Schools by dropping Michigan and Michigan State in the future. As it moves to play 3 Big East Schools in the near future, one game in the NY Giants Meadowlands every year. This alone hurts Big Ten TV Revenues as those games go away.

The problem is that there is no program in the nation that has less of an incentive to join a conference than Notre Dame. The Irish recently renewed their TV contract with NBC and the new BCS rules essentially guarantee that the team will receive a major bowl berth if they can get through the regular season with only two losses.

It is my opinion, nothing is going to happen for 2 to 3 years, this announcement is to bolster Big Ten attempts to keep its Big Ten Channel to be established. It also will cause some schools to contact the Big Ten and some from the Big East and Big-12 looking for that Big Ten TV Money if it can stay at $7.4 million. Should it have to be lowered as competition come son line or if cannot deliver such sums in the future, one can imagine how
the Big Ten would be embarrassed.

Soon you will see articles are whether the Big Ten Channel is actually being able to deliver its money, package, and excitement. Already there has been movement from Washington to Iowa to Ann Arbor to Columbus complaining that the games the Big Ten Channel is offering are awful and no one is happy that all Big Ten games will no longer be free now in totality.

Also, ESPN/ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, and NFL Networks are not happy about watching Fox partnership with the Big Ten Channel and then the Big Ten channel demanding $1.10 per household on other Cable Networks they have big stakes in with others.

Therefore, the Big Ten is smelling some competition, is looking to quell some of the panic, and decided it is time to cause some movement as it sends a message to Notre Dame and let other contemplate movements when the Big Ten makes its final move to expand. It has one more shot at Notre Dame, this is the time to push it, and doing it by letting other school contact them so they can be part of that new TV Contract if it survives at the rate it is today. If it cannot grab Notre Dame soon, it will never have them in the future.

On the other hand, Notre Dame is critical for Big East Sports. Although Big East Football is strong enough to survive any Big Ten Raid for any school now. Notre Dame is critical because it does provide the Big East with viability in all other sports and playing 3 Big East Schools every year while dumping Big Ten Schools, the Bowl Tie-Ins, Full Partners in Basketball, and other sports is a big coup for the Big East and a thorn in the Big Ten. It keeps ND Alums happy by staying Independent in Football.

Notre Dame is the only way to make the Big Ten stronger in Football and at the same time make the Big East weaker in all sports. Jim Delany has rolled the dice on the Big Ten Channel and he is using it now to bait Notre Dame by talking about expansion without Notre Dame.

Finally, Jim Delany is still rolling over how bad the Big Ten Conference was seen at the end of season with 6 of 11 schools with losing records, and Bowl massacres by USC and Florida. He attacked SEC then SEC countered and embarrassed him even more on Big Ten NCAA Violation histories.

Add this to the current Big Ten Channel troubles and you have a guy not exactly happy being a punching bag, so what better way to upset everyone talking about taking another team from somewhere.

It is interesting to watch it unfold but it will take 2 to 3 years, not 2 to 3 weeks, or moths. It was done on purpose to create the buzz, make Notre Dame re-think its positions and have any team interested in more TV money to make their Athletics Department Independent right now, IF they can make it work.

Saying they are looking at it is eactly what they said in 1999, 2003 and today. It is ND or Wait!

The bottomline is that its FOOTBALL that is creating all this moves and were the Big money is at. It is the best interest of the Big East to build a league where all its schools are committed to the same goal.

Jackson1011 Wrote:

MU88 Wrote:

Jackson1011 Wrote:If one of the our schools leave then Eastern football is dead and a new league with a new identity needs to be formed. We will need strong football programs and schools with fans. Memphis, ECU and maybe even Southern Miss (if only USM had a respectable bball program). We can't afford to have Temple sort out their problems under these circumstances

JMO

Jackson

I disagree. Lets look at the facts. First, the value of the BE's tv contract to the football school is greater in the hybred league than in the 8 team spin off. That tells me the bball schools have value. Second, the BE can't find one single available football school to add that would add value to the conference. So, if a BE team leaves, you think a split would happen and the football schools would add 3 of the schools that BE has already has disregarded? I don't think so. I would imagine that if a school left, the 7 football schools would want to maintain their financial position as best they could. That would mean adding the least objectionable candidate and move on. Not splitting.

Now, if the football schools start having enormous success on both the football field and the basketball court, while the bball schools struggle, I definitely see a split happening. That would not be the situation if a school left.

-- I understand what you are saying. However, the real money in college sports is in football. Perhaps it would be wiser to jump to 9 or 10 teams in hopes of building a more stable football oriented league in the future. Five to 10 yrs of BCS recruiting may make Memphis or ECU more valuble then the currently are. Look at what its done for USF. Non football playing members have no potential to help in a conferences most lucrative activiey

JMO

Jackson

Bingo...

You give us just a few years of being able to sell that we're a BCS school, we'll compete with any SEC school for talent in this area....and there is PLENTY of talent in Memphis.

Cubanbull Wrote:There will be enough football teams to keep the league floating because IF it happens everyone wont be leaving at once.
I know everyone is looking at the worst case scenario where the Big10, SEC and ACC all decided to jump to 14 at the same time.
That wont be the case. The first step would be Big 10 adding ONE team, then later maybe adding two with SEC going after that.
As I said it wont all be from BE. While I see Big10 raiding BE for Rutgers. If they decide to go 14, I see them going in the Mizzo and another B12 team.
The SEC will go for Texas and Texas AM first and after that it will try raiding ACC.
The ACC would be the most likely to raid the BE AFTER the SEC has done so.

I don't agree with this.

Texas would not have interest in the SEC because it feels the school is a superior academic university. Texas would have interest in the Big 10 or Pac 10.

Secondly, the ACC will be active and actively make decisions for the best of their league members. The ACC may initially start talking to Notre Dame and Kentucky. The ACC may look at Florida and Georgia. They may send out feelers to Pittsburgh, Syracuse, Rutgers, and Connecticut.

The ACC is an "academic" conference too. Florida State was a lot for the conference to swallow because many felt they did not fit the profile of an ACC school.

Utimately, I think the consolidation will drive at a "new order" and agreement between the power schools. If the Big XII and Big East go away, they can create a new "NCAA/BCS" for football. The new super-conference arrangement could lead to a playoff.

Schools like Oklahoma, Kansas, and Nebraska (the old Big 8) will be impacted because they may not have the "television market".

The ACC does NOT have the money to keep the SEC from raiding it.

FSU, VTech, Clemson,Miami would skip to SEC in a heart beat.

Cubanbull Wrote:The ACC does NOT have the money to keep the SEC from raiding it.

FSU, VTech, Clemson,Miami would skip to SEC in a heart beat.

Cuban, with all respect, VPI, Miami, and Clemson will not want to move to the SEC.

The ACC is VPI's dream conference.

Miami, a small private school, plays in a conference with other similar schools.

You may be able to argue for Florida State (and maybe even Clemson) but Clemson will not want to leave. South Carolina regrets leaving the ACC.

When you talk ACC schools, you talk academics and athletics.

Finally, what would Clemson bring to the SEC? (Assuming Texas left the Big XII) Why wouldn't the SEC go after Oklahoma (i.e. new market, storied program).

Miami would sell its soul to go into SEC and have Florida in its schedule yearly.
Those schools I mentioned are FOOTBALL schools they would fit and grow in the SEC.
For VTech being in ACC is better fit than BE but VTech is NOT a basketball schols like the Carolina schools and Virginia.
Wether we like it or not the SEC is a better football conference than the ACC and any of the football schools in ACC would gladly jump at the extra money and growth to their programs.