jh Wrote:Fo Shizzle, you've noted several times that governements tend to expand at the expense of individual liberty. While this is true, I think it's more of a symptom of a greater problem, rather than the root cause. I think the actual tendancy is for power to expand, whatever its nature. Those in power want more, and since they are the powerful, they take it.

The problem with anarchy in a complex society such as ours is that there still must exist powerful organizations to enforce rules, such as the arbitration companies you've suggested. What will stop these groups from expanding the scope & breadth of their powers until they become defacto governments themselves? And unfortunately, the ones to rise to the top are more likely to be the most restrictive and ruthless.

I believe a more prudent course is to set power against power. A divided government, similar to the ones our founders envisioned, with checks and balances to try & slow down the loss of liberty.

The very idea that you would attempt to come up with a system of government to "try & slow down the loss of liberty"...is an admission that that is impossiblility.

perunapower Wrote:You have lost your mind, Fo Shizzle.

Nah...I still have my thoughts...The one thing that no government can tax or make me give up.

Quote:You are governed. Every action you take and every thought you make aren't explicitly governed, but we have limitations. If you don't see that as being governed, what do you see it as?

In our current statist society...I am forced to adhere to arbitrary laws that have no moral standing...In a Free market society there would be rules that each private property owner would establish...which I of course would have no problem with..as I do now.

Quote:A statist is defined as one who believes in the principle or policy of concentrating extensive economic, political, and related controls in the state at the cost of individual liberty. That's not what most people, especially myself, believe in. You have twisted your definitions and lost sight of reality.

If you support government...you are a statist...What you believe is not cogent to the truth. Just because you believe that your master is benevolent and is of virture....does not stop from being his slave.

Quote:Ed and Elaine Brown were a belligerent couple who stockpiled a weapons cache in their New Hampshire house. Because they failed to report over $1.31 million in income over several years and failed to pay over $600,000 in taxes, the government has every right to arrest them. When the Browns decided to open fire on officers, the officers had every right to defend themselves and do their job. Is this a serious example?

Just an example of the force and violence of government when people decide that they are tired of being stolen from....If you like your wages being stolen...thats fine.

Quote:If you live in the United States, you have to abide by United States law. Simple as that.

Just where and when was that obligation initiated? I dont recall ever recall concending to the theft of my wages....Just because 51% of any collective group decides that what "they" believe is moral and should be "law"...does not make it so morally.

Quote:Government is supposed to maintain security and protect order.

Well..If government is doing such a fine job...Why are we as a nation so scared of our security?

Quote: jh is right, in an anarchy there is nothing to stop the richer caste, the hired police squads, or the DROs (all of which are present in your little utopian society) from lusting for more power over more people until it becomes a de facto government.

Nah...I like Jh and also you Peruna and I have enjoyed the banter....but...You both(like I did) think that governments are the only way to have civilized society....Thats just not reality. The history of governments are NOT something to be proud of..Just in the 20th century alone.. over 170million deaths attributed to government foolishness.....Governments are at their essence...Force. Force at its essence is immoral. Therefore... governments are immoral.

BTW...DROs and private security would be competitive businesses in a free market society...both subject to market signals...therefore not able to exert force upon the citenzy....in fact just the opposite would be true...the consumer would exert the force upon them by the rejection of purchase of their goods and services. Today...You have NO recourse against the force of government...since it is payed without your consent... from your wages.

Merriam Webster Online Wrote:Statism: concentration of economic controls and planning in the hands of a highly centralized government often extending to government ownership of industry

You're misrepresenting words. That's the definition. Find a new word. You're also using loaded language again. We are not slaves to a master if we get to elect our government. Abiding by federal law is nothing like slavery.

You're wrong. You do have a choice. You choose to be an American citizen, that implies that you choose to abide by the laws of the land. Not just the ones you want to. All of them. If you are within the internationally recognized boundaries encompassing the United States or any of its territories, you must abide by U.S. Law. Ed and Elaine Brown were within the United States as American citizens and failed to obey the law.

[/quote]Nah...I like Jh and also you Peruna and I have enjoyed the banter....but...You both(like I did) think that governments are the only way to have civilized society....Thats just not reality. The history of governments are NOT something to be proud of..Just in the 20th century alone.. over 170million deaths attributed to government foolishness.....Governments are at their essence...Force. Force at its essence is immoral. Therefore... governments are immoral.

BTW...DROs and private security would be competitive businesses in a free market society...both subject to market signals...therefore not able to exert force upon the citenzy....in fact just the opposite would be true...the consumer would exert the force upon them by the rejection of purchase of their goods and services. Today...You have NO recourse against the force of government...since it is payed without your consent... from your wages.
[/quote]

Governments aren't perfect; no one is arguing that they are. I recognize that over the past century and more that some governments have screwed up. But people run those governments. Those people would have still existed with or without governments. Governments are nothing more than people. There's no machinery or moving parts. You can't remove people from the equation and they are the problem. We have to live with this problem though.

A police squad is supposed to exert force; that is what it is designed to do. A DRO is supposed to exert its judgment on a case; this is a force. Both only work if they receive payment. Rich people will be able to pump these forces with their money and significantly influence their decisions. Police and justice need to separated from the influence of those involved. Just because there are more doesn't mean they will be less apt to being swayed with money. A handful of rich people could throw money at all the DROs and sway them all. If they successfully sway them all, then I can't really reject their service anymore, can I? No, I can't.

We do have a say in our government. We go to a specific place on a specific day with a voter's registration card or ID and we vote. If you don't like the government, vote for someone else. If you don't like any of the candidates, run yourself. Write your congressman. Get on the streets and protest. Get people interested and involved in your cause. We aren't under any oppressive thumb. You don't live in North Korea or China. Those are oppressive. You're not oppressed.

perunapower Wrote:[quote=Merriam Webster Online]
Statism: concentration of economic controls and planning in the hands of a highly centralized government often extending to government ownership of industry

Quote:You're misrepresenting words. That's the definition. Find a new word. You're also using loaded language again. We are not slaves to a master if we get to elect our government. Abiding by federal law is nothing like slavery.

Nah...no misrepresentation....Every government eventually ends up being highly centalized...Its just the nature of the beast. Our system was the best attempt ever concieved and Id say it is coming close to fitting that defination now...If you are "forced" to participate...you are a slave.

Quote:You're wrong. You do have a choice. You choose to be an American citizen, that implies that you choose to abide by the laws of the land. Not just the ones you want to. All of them. If you are within the internationally recognized boundaries encompassing the United States or any of its territories, you must abide by U.S. Law. Ed and Elaine Brown were within the United States as American citizens and failed to obey the law.

Nah...The only thing I choose is to be free...Government is contradictory to freedom because it is use of force. You can choose to be ruled...but you are not free.

Quote:Governments aren't perfect; no one is arguing that they are. I recognize that over the past century and more that some governments have screwed up. But people run those governments. Those people would have still existed with or without governments. Governments are nothing more than people. There's no machinery or moving parts. You can't remove people from the equation and they are the problem. We have to live with this problem though.

You are dead on...People(in search of power) run governments...Governments are just people.....People would exist with or without governments....Since we cant remove people from the equation, why not remove the government?

Quote:A police squad is supposed to exert force; that is what it is designed to do. A DRO is supposed to exert its judgment on a case; this is a force. Both only work if they receive payment. Rich people will be able to pump these forces with their money and significantly influence their decisions. Police and justice need to separated from the influence of those involved. Just because there are more doesn't mean they will be less apt to being swayed with money. A handful of rich people could throw money at all the DROs and sway them all. If they successfully sway them all, then I can't really reject their service anymore, can I? No, I can't.

No..Police are supposed to "protect" and "serve".....force should be the last resort...not their mission....If we would just end this insane war on drugs,prostitution and gambling against nonviolent citizens...they might could get back to being peace officers instead of jackbooted thugs and tax collectors.
You would contract with a DRO and you would abide by its rulings "under contract"....No one would force you to participate. You could even decide not to have a DRO if you so wished and live in a grey market. This may be hard to do...since many businesses would require you to be represented in order for you to buy goods and services from them.
Where your senerio falls apart is that It would be impossible for anyone to control any sector of a total free market. As soon as someone trys to gain a monopoly or is unethical ...there will be opportunity for someone else to undercut them though price or service and take market share.

Quote:We do have a say in our government. We go to a specific place on a specific day with a voter's registration card or ID and we vote. If you don't like the government, vote for someone else. If you don't like any of the candidates, run yourself. Write your congressman. Get on the streets and protest. Get people interested and involved in your cause. We aren't under any oppressive thumb. You don't live in North Korea or China. Those are oppressive. You're not oppressed.

Voting is one of the most useless activities ever concieved. We somehow believe that being able to choose those that rule us makes it all just peachy...We are under the delusion that one person in search of power is any more likely to refrain from abusing that power than another...when in fact it makes no difference. Government still gets bigger,still steals more of your wages,still erodes you liberty...chip by chip by chip..No matter who rules.

As I said... Just because 51% of a group decide something...does not make it morally right....What if that group decided that it could set up check points inside the US?..or...Your child must submit to being injected with drugs?..or that the government can listen to your phone conversations without a warrant?..or..You must submit to random search of your belonging at airports,train stations..ect
Opressed yet?
I do totally agree with you on one thing that "does" make a difference...Civil disobediance and peaceful protest are pretty much the only way to make the government change

Fo Shizzle Wrote:

Quote:If you live in the United States, you have to abide by United States law. Simple as that.

Just where and when was that obligation initiated? I dont recall ever recall concending to the theft of my wages....Just because 51% of any collective group decides that what "they" believe is moral and should be "law"...does not make it so morally.

While I could have taken a dozen or more posts like this from your list, I chose this one because it is (at least to me) the most obvious.

The obligation was initiated when you or your parents, or your parents parents, or your parents parents parents decided to come to America. If you were indiginous, you are free to live on a reservation and practice the laws of your parents parents parents... If they came here AFTER a law was enacted, then they are subject to it. If they came here BEFORE a law was enacted, then they had an opportunity to vote for or against a law, or a politician. If they were too busy or too stupid or too unmotivated to fight against a law, then they, by their inaction, acquiesced to the law. Even if they DID protest aggressively against the law, they agreed when they came to this country, or when they joined the United States to abide by the laws of the land as voted on by the majority. So yes, you most certainly DID agree to abide by these laws.

People make the comment, if you don't like it, leave... and the people who hear it think its ALWAYS some kind of a slam. It doesn't have to be. One of the freedoms you have here is to leave. There is no exit Visa required. There is no border check on the way out. If you are TRULY unhappy, you have the freedom to leave. That is not the case in every country.

Understand something... I AGREE with you that politicians are liars, and that our government is WAY too big, and too involved in way too many issues... and that taxes are WAY too high as a result... AND that free enterprise will solve many of our issues without the need for government intervention... HOWEVER... every single one of us who is a legal resident of this country has the opportunity to remedy it from inside, or leave. If you are NOT a legal resident, you have opportunities to BECOME one... This is the carrot you were given when you came here... whenever, and by whatever means you came here... to go along with the stick of our government.

For what it is worth, and because perception IS reality if you let it go long enough.... You don't sound like an idealist to me, or even particularly intelligent... though I suspect you probably are both of those things.... You SOUND like someone who reads what most people would refer to as anarchist propoganda and likes to complain about what everyone else isn't doing for them.... personally, WAY too much like the people who vote for politicians because they used words they liked without ever seeing or thinking about how those words could be put into action... Politics is a circle, not a line... and anarchists are VERY close in their ideals to those who think government is the answer for everything... The government is a bunch of jack-boothed thugs... um... okay... so what do you want to do about it?? Become a BIGGER thug?? That just replaces one thug with another... one who is just as human, and just as likely to try and take advantage of their situation... Vote them out... okay... and vote for whom?? start a political party... even if you don't win, you can affect change... just ask Ralph Nader and Pat Buchanan. I'm not in any way saying you aren't intelligent... I honestly have no idea.... though I assume you're at least moderately so... I am simply talking about how much of what you write comes across to me. It's pretty easy for me to dismiss you as a cook, or unintelligent. If you REALLY have something to say to try and improve things, then I'm simply suggesting you do so in a different manner.

If you have a REAL idea... then post it... but personally, I'm kinda tired of the continual posts about how all of these thugs are stealing your wages... There are plenty of jobs you can do that will pay cash and not withold taxes... you don't NEED to drive a car... or have utilities in your name. Plenty of places will rent you a place to live with fake documents... Doctors will see you if you pay in cash... but you don't even need that. The moment you take the carrot... whether it be using public roadways or utilities or healthcare or education or Police or Fire or parks or whatever, you have acquiesced to the "theft" that you complain about... all you're arguing about now is how much it should cost, and how much they should do for you...

Hambone10 Wrote:

Fo Shizzle Wrote:

Quote:If you live in the United States, you have to abide by United States law. Simple as that.

Just where and when was that obligation initiated? I dont recall ever recall concending to the theft of my wages....Just because 51% of any collective group decides that what "they" believe is moral and should be "law"...does not make it so morally.

While I could have taken a dozen or more posts like this from your list, I chose this one because it is (at least to me) the most obvious.

The obligation was initiated when you or your parents, or your parents parents, or your parents parents parents decided to come to America. If you were indiginous, you are free to live on a reservation and practice the laws of your parents parents parents... If they came here AFTER a law was enacted, then they are subject to it. If they came here BEFORE a law was enacted, then they had an opportunity to vote for or against a law, or a politician. If they were too busy or too stupid or too unmotivated to fight against a law, then they, by their inaction, acquiesced to the law. Even if they DID protest aggressively against the law, they agreed when they came to this country, or when they joined the United States to abide by the laws of the land as voted on by the majority. So yes, you most certainly DID agree to abide by these laws.

People make the comment, if you don't like it, leave... and the people who hear it think its ALWAYS some kind of a slam. It doesn't have to be. One of the freedoms you have here is to leave. There is no exit Visa required. There is no border check on the way out. If you are TRULY unhappy, you have the freedom to leave. That is not the case in every country.

Understand something... I AGREE with you that politicians are liars, and that our government is WAY too big, and too involved in way too many issues... and that taxes are WAY too high as a result... AND that free enterprise will solve many of our issues without the need for government intervention... HOWEVER... every single one of us who is a legal resident of this country has the opportunity to remedy it from inside, or leave. If you are NOT a legal resident, you have opportunities to BECOME one... This is the carrot you were given when you came here... whenever, and by whatever means you came here... to go along with the stick of our government.

For what it is worth, and because perception IS reality if you let it go long enough.... You don't sound like an idealist to me, or even particularly intelligent... though I suspect you probably are both of those things.... You SOUND like someone who reads what most people would refer to as anarchist propoganda and likes to complain about what everyone else isn't doing for them.... personally, WAY too much like the people who vote for politicians because they used words they liked without ever seeing or thinking about how those words could be put into action... Politics is a circle, not a line... and anarchists are VERY close in their ideals to those who think government is the answer for everything... The government is a bunch of jack-boothed thugs... um... okay... so what do you want to do about it?? Become a BIGGER thug?? That just replaces one thug with another... one who is just as human, and just as likely to try and take advantage of their situation... Vote them out... okay... and vote for whom?? start a political party... even if you don't win, you can affect change... just ask Ralph Nader and Pat Buchanan.

If you have a REAL idea... then post it... but personally, I'm kinda tired of the continual posts about how all of these thugs are stealing your wages... There are plenty of jobs you can do that will pay cash and not withold taxes... you don't NEED to drive a car... or have utilities in your name. Plenty of places will rent you a place to live with fake documents... Doctors will see you if you pay in cash... but you don't even need that. The moment you take the carrot... whether it be using public roadways or utilities or healthcare or education or Police or Fire or parks or whatever, you have acquiesced to the "theft" that you complain about... all you're arguing about now is how much it should cost, and how much they should do for you...

I hope you realize that I knew when this conversation began that someone would finally just give up trying to debate philosophically and eventually come with the "love it or leave it" rethoric that abruptly ends the conversation...Im actually surprised it took this long.
Im not delusional enough to think for a moment that any significant change in our system of government will occur in my lifetime. I just enjoy advocating an alternative POV. Most of my BS is based on philosophies from several sources...Socrates,Rand,Rothbard,Spooner,Mises..ect

I truely do feel that our nation is in the beginning stages of the decline that all other governmental systems have faced. A vastly overpowered executive branch and an ineffective legislative body, a total disregard for sound monetary policy and impending stagflation, Steady growth of the police state,spread of imperialism and a vastly overgrown military.
What is occuring is not something to just toss off as a "phase". This is pretty serious stuff and I see no political leader or political party that is addressing these issues.
Yes, they want to "bring the troops home"...but..I dont hear a damn one of them ask why we have over 600 military bases in 130 countries?
Yes...They talk about bipartisanship in the legislative branch...but..It rarely ever occurs.
We keep on borrowing money(from our children) and lowering intrest rates to hopefully avoid the "busts" in the economy while only prolonging them and making it worse when it happens.
We sit at home and watch "COPS" and applaud while non-violent drug offenders are arrested and sent to jail(almost 800k last year)..not a bit aware that we have become more and more a police state.

I admit it...I have NO solution for the mess we are in....Possibly a revamping of the Constitution might prolong our experimental republic...Beyond civil disobediance and peaceful protest..I see no recoiling of the monster we have created...If politics were effective...we wouldnt be in the situation we are in now.

Eventually the tipping point will occur..just as it did in the USSR...I hope we wake up and see soon that the centralzation of power is steadily growing in the US and it WILL be our downfall.

Fo Shizzle Wrote:I hope you realize that I knew when this conversation began that someone would finally just give up trying to debate philosophically and eventually come with the "love it or leave it" rethoric that abruptly ends the conversation...Im actually surprised it took this long.

That's not what I said. I never said love it or leave it... I said, you have choices in this country. By staying, you are acquiescing to the rules. You are not forced to stay here. That doesn't mean you have to love it... but it DOES mean that you have chosen to stay here, in full knowledge of what is expected of you by the government and society. You may not like it, and I understand that... but by NOT leaving, you have agreed to accept the current rules with the ability to try and change them in the future. You asked when you signed on for governmental theft. The moment you realized what the rules were, had the chance to leave and didn't. I have no problem with a philosophical debate... I simply want one that can actually GO somewhere... Euclidian philosophy rather than that of Salvador Dali

Fo Shizzle Wrote:Im not delusional enough to think for a moment that any significant change in our system of government will occur in my lifetime. I just enjoy advocating an alternative POV. Most of my BS is based on philosophies from several sources...Socrates,Rand,Rothbard,Spooner,Mises..ect

I truely do feel that our nation is in the beginning stages of the decline that all other governmental systems have faced. A vastly overpowered executive branch and an ineffective legislative body, a total disregard for sound monetary policy and impending stagflation, Steady growth of the police state,spread of imperialism and a vastly overgrown military.
What is occuring is not something to just toss off as a "phase". This is pretty serious stuff and I see no political leader or political party that is addressing these issues.
Yes, they want to "bring the troops home"...but..I dont hear a damn one of them ask why we have over 600 military bases in 130 countries?
Yes...They talk about bipartisanship in the legislative branch...but..It rarely ever occurs.
We keep on borrowing money(from our children) and lowering intrest rates to hopefully avoid the "busts" in the economy while only prolonging them and making it worse when it happens.
We sit at home and watch "COPS" and applaud while non-violent drug offenders are arrested and sent to jail(almost 800k last year)..not a bit aware that we have become more and more a police state.

I admit it...I have NO solution for the mess we are in....Possibly a revamping of the Constitution might prolong our experimental republic...Beyond civil disobediance and peaceful protest..I see no recoiling of the monster we have created...If politics were effective...we wouldnt be in the situation we are in now.

Eventually the tipping point will occur... just as it did in the USSR... I hope we wake up and see soon that the centralzation of power is steadily growing in the US and it WILL be our downfall.

THIS part I agree with, by and large... and you have written similarly, and it is why I assumed you were intelligent.

I have no idea how old you are, but if you don't believe things will change in your lifetime, you haven't been paying attention. For the better or worse, I can guarantee that they have already changed meaningfully in your lifetime. NO government lasts forever... and it will change in an effort to stay "alive" for as long as possible.

I've read Socrates and many others as well... but sometimes the answers are much more simple. There was a great SouthPark recently where "hippies" came to SouthPark. In a nutshell, they railed against "the man" and government while listening to music. They advocated a lawless but peaceful society without borders... when asked what listening to music had to do with it, they had no answer... when asked how they would eat and live, they advocated most of the systems and organizations that they rallied against... I'm not saying that is you... I'm simply saying that it was clear that most of the people who were complaining REALLY didn't know what they were complaining about... they just wanted to "win"... Sounds an awful lot like MOST voters these days to me. It was cool for them to complain, and they had something to complain about... but they didn't really want to change anything, and they weren't so irritated, or there weren't enough "better" options so that they were willing to leave.

I have a question for Fo Shizzle.....your dream isn't going to come true, but as they say, a journey of a 1000 miles begins with a single step. What would be a good first step in turning things around? What laws or regulations should be the first to go? Should more regulation be moved back to the states to start with, or is that not an improvement? Should we yank all our troops out of all overseas locations? More details please.

I don't disagree with many of your points above but of course I wouldn't go nearly as far as you would in the other direction.

NIU007 Wrote:I have a question for Fo Shizzle.....your dream isn't going to come true, but as they say, a journey of a 1000 miles begins with a single step. What would be a good first step in turning things around? What laws or regulations should be the first to go? Should more regulation be moved back to the states to start with, or is that not an improvement? Should we yank all our troops out of all overseas locations? More details please.

I don't disagree with many of your points above but of course I wouldn't go nearly as far as you would in the other direction.

I think a good first step would be to choose a Federal program that certainly could be handled by the free market...Lets say something like the TSA...The Airlines are perfectly capable of providing security for the aircraft that they own and fly and surely in a less intrusive and bureaucratic fashion....If we could start to "show" things that work better without mommy govt....maybe it would start a trend.

An interesting movement is occuring in NH...Its called the Free State Project. Its goal is to get 20,000 liberty active people to move to NH and effectively "take over" the politics of the state.
They currently have about 2000 already and are beginning to have an effect in the state house....If this works...It could be a example of how to subvert the very system that has worked against us.

Fo Shizzle Wrote:No..Police are supposed to "protect" and "serve".....force should be the last resort...not their mission....If we would just end this insane war on drugs,prostitution and gambling against nonviolent citizens...they might could get back to being peace officers instead of jackbooted thugs and tax collectors.
You would contract with a DRO and you would abide by its rulings "under contract"....No one would force you to participate. You could even decide not to have a DRO if you so wished and live in a grey market. This may be hard to do...since many businesses would require you to be represented in order for you to buy goods and services from them.
Where your senerio falls apart is that It would be impossible for anyone to control any sector of a total free market. As soon as someone trys to gain a monopoly or is unethical ...there will be opportunity for someone else to undercut them though price or service and take market share.

Would you like the share how a policeman is supposed to protect and serve without using force? They use their authority and force to uphold the law. Force is arresting criminals, giving citations, dispeling riots, etc. Drugs kills people (either directly or indirectly). Prostitution exploits people. Gambling, well I didn't think there was a "war" against gambling, so I'm at loss for what you're thinking of here.

Also, how would it be impossible for a single person to influence the entire DRO sector? Because you refuse to believe that someone with that amount of money would do that? It's certainly within the realm of possibility. You can't keep raising the price of a service, then it becomes unobtainable for a large portion of the community. You can't keep establishing DROs ad nauseum. Surely DROs would have to be certified and not everyone could make one, thus there is a limited pool.

Quote:As I said... Just because 51% of a group decide something...does not make it morally right....What if that group decided that it could set up check points inside the US?..or...Your child must submit to being injected with drugs?..or that the government can listen to your phone conversations without a warrant?..or..You must submit to random search of your belonging at airports,train stations..ect
Opressed yet?
I do totally agree with you on one thing that "does" make a difference...Civil disobediance and peaceful protest are pretty much the only way to make the government change

Just because one person chooses it individually doesn't make it morally right either, maybe not for themselves individually or for society as a whole.

1. There are already check points within the US. They are at practically every state line or near the state lines. They are called weigh stations, but they are only for trucks.

2. How the government force children to vaccinations like those against the measles? What if some children want the measles? That's truly cruel to keep them from that experience.

3. This isn't 1984. Chill out.

4. How dare the government protect people from future terrorist attacks at airports. The 4th Amendment protects use from unreasonable search and seizure. I don't think it's unreasonable to prevent future hijackings and deranged actions aboard airlines. Perhaps you'd like to be 30,000 feet in the air when someone gets stabbed with a box cutter.

No, I'm not oppressed. Oppressed is North Korea seizing cell phones when the New York Philharmonic entered their country. Oppressed is China filtering the Internet for their citizens, shielding them from reality. Oppressed is Cubans not being allowed to buy DVD players until recently.

Fo Shizzle Wrote:An interesting movement is occuring in NH...Its called the Free State Project. Its goal is to get 20,000 liberty active people to move to NH and effectively "take over" the politics of the state.
They currently have about 2000 already and are beginning to have an effect in the state house....If this works...It could be a example of how to subvert the very system that has worked against us.

Uhh... according to their website they only have 530 people in NH.
http://www.freestateproject.org/

Don't overstate your example. I thought you said voting was useless. Looks like these people are taking advantage of the governmental model and using that to state their opinions. How scintillating.

perunapower Wrote:

Fo Shizzle Wrote:An interesting movement is occuring in NH...Its called the Free State Project. Its goal is to get 20,000 liberty active people to move to NH and effectively "take over" the politics of the state.
They currently have about 2000 already and are beginning to have an effect in the state house....If this works...It could be a example of how to subvert the very system that has worked against us.

Uhh... according to their website they only have 530 people in NH.
http://www.freestateproject.org/

Don't overstate your example. I thought you said voting was useless. Looks like these people are taking advantage of the governmental model and using that to state their opinions. How scintillating.

Actually the activism that has been successful has NOT been through voting....there are many of them dont even care to vote....They are much more into civil disobediance against the laws in NH...and BTW many native NH residents have joined this movement and the numbers on the website are inaccurate.
If you are interested I suggest you Podcast... freetalklive... and give Ian and Mark a listen...I doubt you would be able to listen for more than 10 minutes without your head exploding....They are much more radical than I.

perunapower Wrote:

Fo Shizzle Wrote:No..Police are supposed to "protect" and "serve".....force should be the last resort...not their mission....If we would just end this insane war on drugs,prostitution and gambling against nonviolent citizens...they might could get back to being peace officers instead of jackbooted thugs and tax collectors.
You would contract with a DRO and you would abide by its rulings "under contract"....No one would force you to participate. You could even decide not to have a DRO if you so wished and live in a grey market. This may be hard to do...since many businesses would require you to be represented in order for you to buy goods and services from them.
Where your senerio falls apart is that It would be impossible for anyone to control any sector of a total free market. As soon as someone trys to gain a monopoly or is unethical ...there will be opportunity for someone else to undercut them though price or service and take market share.

Would you like the share how a policeman is supposed to protect and serve without using force? They use their authority and force to uphold the law. Force is arresting criminals, giving citations, dispeling riots, etc. Drugs kills people (either directly or indirectly). Prostitution exploits people. Gambling, well I didn't think there was a "war" against gambling, so I'm at loss for what you're thinking of here.

Also, how would it be impossible for a single person to influence the entire DRO sector? Because you refuse to believe that someone with that amount of money would do that? It's certainly within the realm of possibility. You can't keep raising the price of a service, then it becomes unobtainable for a large portion of the community. You can't keep establishing DROs ad nauseum. Surely DROs would have to be certified and not everyone could make one, thus there is a limited pool.

Quote:As I said... Just because 51% of a group decide something...does not make it morally right....What if that group decided that it could set up check points inside the US?..or...Your child must submit to being injected with drugs?..or that the government can listen to your phone conversations without a warrant?..or..You must submit to random search of your belonging at airports,train stations..ect
Opressed yet?
I do totally agree with you on one thing that "does" make a difference...Civil disobediance and peaceful protest are pretty much the only way to make the government change

Just because one person chooses it individually doesn't make it morally right either, maybe not for themselves individually or for society as a whole.

1. There are already check points within the US. They are at practically every state line or near the state lines. They are called weigh stations, but they are only for trucks.

2. How the government force children to vaccinations like those against the measles? What if some children want the measles? That's truly cruel to keep them from that experience.

3. This isn't 1984. Chill out.

4. How dare the government protect people from future terrorist attacks at airports. The 4th Amendment protects use from unreasonable search and seizure. I don't think it's unreasonable to prevent future hijackings and deranged actions aboard airlines. Perhaps you'd like to be 30,000 feet in the air when someone gets stabbed with a box cutter.

No, I'm not oppressed. Oppressed is North Korea seizing cell phones when the New York Philharmonic entered their country. Oppressed is China filtering the Internet for their citizens, shielding them from reality. Oppressed is Cubans not being allowed to buy DVD players until recently.

You sound happy with the government you are subject to....I have no problem with you being happy...since I would not use any type of force to change your mind.....peace be with you.

Fo Shizzle Wrote:

perunapower Wrote:

Fo Shizzle Wrote:An interesting movement is occuring in NH...Its called the Free State Project. Its goal is to get 20,000 liberty active people to move to NH and effectively "take over" the politics of the state.
They currently have about 2000 already and are beginning to have an effect in the state house....If this works...It could be a example of how to subvert the very system that has worked against us.

Uhh... according to their website they only have 530 people in NH.
http://www.freestateproject.org/

Don't overstate your example. I thought you said voting was useless. Looks like these people are taking advantage of the governmental model and using that to state their opinions. How scintillating.

Actually the activism that has been successful has NOT been through voting....there are many of them dont even care to vote....They are much more into civil disobediance against the laws in NH...and BTW many native NH residents have joined this movement and the numbers on the website are inaccurate.
If you are interested I suggest you Podcast... freetalklive... and give Ian and Mark a listen...I doubt you would be able to listen for more than 10 minutes without your head exploding....They are much more radical than I.

Again, I am responding only selectively...

I'm laughing at this because of my own perceptions... sort of like someone who joins an anarchist group (think about it for a minute)

When someone says there are 2,000 members of some group... yet the official report from that group says it is only 600... either the person who says there are REALLy 2,000 has an agenda, or the people at the group are lazy in updating their site/not really interested in growing the group. If you're not really interested in growing the group, then you aren't really interested in changing anything... you simply seek individual soveriegnty. That is absolutely fine, until you want to exert soveriegnty over another person or property... and that includes simply traveling from one place to another... much less use and discharge of water. You want soveriegnty over the land you are traveling over... at least for that moment... and THAT requires concessions from others who want soveriegnty over that land... at least for that moment... So we build roads and sidewalks... and establish property rights... and suddenly we have a government.

Again, all we're ultimately discussing is how much control and how much it should cost. Most of this "freedom movement" and "civil disobedience" is a front for laziness. They don't really want things to change... at least not in the aggregate... they only want things to change for THEM. The minute their soveriegnty conflicts with someone elses, they will and do want a governmental agency to fix it for them, and they will complain when they don't "win".

In order to truly engage in civil disobedience, you must be interested in changing things for EVERYONE... not just yourself.

The history of the "Live Free or Die" motto on New Hampshire license plates is interesting. The first time I saw it, I thought is was a great slogan, and I still do.