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Would the basketball schools accept a compromise like this?
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BullsBEAST Offline
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Post: #1
Would the basketball schools accept a compromise like this?
This season has proven that there is no doubt, we need more football teams. A clean split seems unlikely, but what do you guys think of this idea:

Kick out:
Providence (because they suck)
Depaul & Marquette (too far west)

Add:
Memphis
ECU
UMASS

Still have a 16 team basketball conference. Weve moved farther east. UMASS and Memphis offset the losses of Depaul and Marquette. Memphis brings in the liberty bowl.

10 team Football conference:
Cincy
UConn
East Carolina
Louisville
Memphis
Pitt
Rutgers
South Florida
Syracuse
West Virginia

At this point we could push Umass to move up to 1a since there seems to be a movement there to do it and they have UCONN type potential. From there we could wait and see if Temple gets their act together, or Georgetown or Nova ever decide to move up to 1a. Or we could just wait 5 or 6 years until USF is an established power and bring in UCF.

Either way I think something has to be done, 8 teams is way too risky, no room for error. I know most of us would prefer a clean split but maybe this is something that could actually happen?
(This post was last modified: 09-08-2008 02:16 PM by BullsBEAST.)
09-08-2008 12:48 PM
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ClairtonPanther Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Would the basketball schools accept a compromise like this?
No it wouldn't happen. No way Providence gets kicked out. Your right bout moving east. But just won't happen. I'm not sure UMass really would help out in football. Do I like the idea yes.
09-08-2008 12:53 PM
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firmbizzle Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Would the basketball schools accept a compromise like this?
BullsBEAST Wrote:This season has proven that there is no doubt, we need more football teams. A clean split seems unlikely, but what do you guys think of this idea:

Kick out:
Providence (because they suck)
Depaul & Maquette (too far west)

Add:
Memphis
ECU
UMASS

Still have a 16 team basketball conference. Weve moved farther east. UMASS and Memphis offset the losses of Depaul and Marquette. Memphis brings in the liberty bowl.

10 team Football conference:
Cincy
UConn
East Carolina
Louisville
Memphis
Pitt
Rutgers
South Florida
Syracuse
West Virginia

At this point we could push Umass to move up to 1a since there seems to be a movement there to do it and they have UCONN type potential. From there we could wait and see if Temple gets their act together, or Georgetown or Nova ever decide to move up to 1a. Or we could just wait 5 or 6 years until USF is an established power and bring in UCF.

Either way I think something has to be done, 8 teams is way too risky, no room for error. I know most of us would prefer a clean split but maybe this is something that could actually happen?

Depaul and Marquette are too far west, but Memphis isn't?
09-08-2008 12:55 PM
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BullsBEAST Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Would the basketball schools accept a compromise like this?
firmbizzle Wrote:Depaul and Marquette are too far west, but Memphis isn't?
I know Memphis is a bit far out there but we would need them after removing the other teams. Memphis is the only school that we would add that would benefit us in both basketball and football. Either way, we move from 2 teams too far west to 1.
09-08-2008 02:10 PM
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firmbizzle Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Would the basketball schools accept a compromise like this?
BullsBEAST Wrote:
firmbizzle Wrote:Depaul and Marquette are too far west, but Memphis isn't?
I know Memphis is a bit far out there but we would need them after removing the other teams. Memphis is the only school that we would add that would benefit us in both basketball and football. Either way, we move from 2 teams too far west to 1.

Seems like the Big East's problem is that it is trying to be a Northern and Southern league. It might serve it best to focus on being one or the other.
09-08-2008 03:36 PM
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mlb Offline
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RE: Would the basketball schools accept a compromise like this?
They just put Depaul and Marquette in, and Marquette has become a top 25 program. They aren't going anywhere.
09-08-2008 03:46 PM
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LastMinuteman Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Would the basketball schools accept a compromise like this?
BullsBEAST Wrote:This season has proven that there is no doubt, we need more football teams. A clean split seems unlikely, but what do you guys think of this idea:

Kick out:
Providence (because they suck)
Depaul & Marquette (too far west)

Add:
Memphis
ECU
UMASS

No, they'd never accept that. So many seem to keep forgetting that all of the non-football Big East members are Catholic schools. Memphis, ECU and UMass were all available and would have happily accepted a Big East invite after the ACC raid. Instead, the Big East took Marquette and DePaul. Why? Because they're Catholic schools, and they preserve the 50% Catholic ownership of the Big East. The Catholic schools will never kick out one of their own group, and will never approve a vote to add any new members unless at least half of them are Catholic. They also don't want two members in the same market, which is why they didn't take Xavier or St. Joseph's and instead went way out to Marquette and DePaul. So in the unlikely event the Big East ever expands to 18 members, count on one of the two new members being St. Louis, since there aren't really any other suitable candidates.

Any expansion scenario that involves kicking out a Catholic school and replacing it with a non-Catholic is automatically impossible, don't even bother dreaming about it. The Big East will either split or remain 50% Catholic (or add a football-only affiliate member with no voting rights).
09-08-2008 05:36 PM
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Post: #8
RE: Would the basketball schools accept a compromise like this?
firmbizzle Wrote:
BullsBEAST Wrote:
firmbizzle Wrote:Depaul and Marquette are too far west, but Memphis isn't?
I know Memphis is a bit far out there but we would need them after removing the other teams. Memphis is the only school that we would add that would benefit us in both basketball and football. Either way, we move from 2 teams too far west to 1.

Seems like the Big East's problem is that it is trying to be a Northern and Southern league. It might serve it best to focus on being one or the other.

That might be possible for basketball (and it once was), but football-wise, there aren't enough viable or realistic expansion candidates to be either solely Northern or solely Southern.
09-09-2008 11:44 PM
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Frank the Tank Online
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Post: #9
RE: Would the basketball schools accept a compromise like this?
LastMinuteman Wrote:
BullsBEAST Wrote:This season has proven that there is no doubt, we need more football teams. A clean split seems unlikely, but what do you guys think of this idea:

Kick out:
Providence (because they suck)
Depaul & Marquette (too far west)

Add:
Memphis
ECU
UMASS

No, they'd never accept that. So many seem to keep forgetting that all of the non-football Big East members are Catholic schools. Memphis, ECU and UMass were all available and would have happily accepted a Big East invite after the ACC raid. Instead, the Big East took Marquette and DePaul. Why? Because they're Catholic schools, and they preserve the 50% Catholic ownership of the Big East. The Catholic schools will never kick out one of their own group, and will never approve a vote to add any new members unless at least half of them are Catholic. They also don't want two members in the same market, which is why they didn't take Xavier or St. Joseph's and instead went way out to Marquette and DePaul. So in the unlikely event the Big East ever expands to 18 members, count on one of the two new members being St. Louis, since there aren't really any other suitable candidates.

Any expansion scenario that involves kicking out a Catholic school and replacing it with a non-Catholic is automatically impossible, don't even bother dreaming about it. The Big East will either split or remain 50% Catholic (or add a football-only affiliate member with no voting rights).

Exactly right about the Catholic schools - they are going to vote as a bloc and an expansion of 2 additional teams is going to include another Catholic school to maintain the 50% voting level. SLU certainly makes the most sense (they are old rivals of DePaul and Marquette while being in a larger market), while I'd also throw Dayton out there as a possibility (although less likely since the market is less attractive).
09-09-2008 11:49 PM
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BullsBEAST Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Would the basketball schools accept a compromise like this?
LastMinuteman Wrote:
BullsBEAST Wrote:This season has proven that there is no doubt, we need more football teams. A clean split seems unlikely, but what do you guys think of this idea:

Kick out:
Providence (because they suck)
Depaul & Marquette (too far west)

Add:
Memphis
ECU
UMASS

No, they'd never accept that. So many seem to keep forgetting that all of the non-football Big East members are Catholic schools. Memphis, ECU and UMass were all available and would have happily accepted a Big East invite after the ACC raid. Instead, the Big East took Marquette and DePaul. Why? Because they're Catholic schools, and they preserve the 50% Catholic ownership of the Big East. The Catholic schools will never kick out one of their own group, and will never approve a vote to add any new members unless at least half of them are Catholic. They also don't want two members in the same market, which is why they didn't take Xavier or St. Joseph's and instead went way out to Marquette and DePaul. So in the unlikely event the Big East ever expands to 18 members, count on one of the two new members being St. Louis, since there aren't really any other suitable candidates.

Any expansion scenario that involves kicking out a Catholic school and replacing it with a non-Catholic is automatically impossible, don't even bother dreaming about it. The Big East will either split or remain 50% Catholic (or add a football-only affiliate member with no voting rights).
Insightful. Very good post. I guess that nixes my idea..

Back to hoping for a split.

Being that you follow Umass, what are the chances of you guys moving up to 1a anytime in football? If you do, what kind of attendance would you guys have? What are the chances of you guys upgrading the stadium? Whats the opinion of the students and fans on a move?
(This post was last modified: 09-10-2008 12:55 AM by BullsBEAST.)
09-10-2008 12:52 AM
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tigercat Offline
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Post: #11
RE: Would the basketball schools accept a compromise like this?
firmbizzle Wrote:
BullsBEAST Wrote:
firmbizzle Wrote:Depaul and Marquette are too far west, but Memphis isn't?
I know Memphis is a bit far out there but we would need them after removing the other teams. Memphis is the only school that we would add that would benefit us in both basketball and football. Either way, we move from 2 teams too far west to 1.

Seems like the Big East's problem is that it is trying to be a Northern and Southern league. It might serve it best to focus on being one or the other.

The Big East would still be an "eastern" league in that all the member reside EAST of the Mississippi in the Eastern half (or so) of the country.

I don't think it matters as many students and athletes that are attending Big East schools or playing on the various teams do not come from any one location/area of the country. Fans would most likely be mainly concerned with level/quality of conference play more than where each school is located.

Rivalries are built over a period of time and the Big East is essentially a fairly new league. The rivalries would not necessarily develop along regional lines or identity. I could see Memphis and Syracuse getting after it in basketball of sure. There are some already established from past associations eg Pitt vs W. Va and Syracuse vs some of the basketball only schools etc. Of the potential candidates, Memphis has a long history with Louisville and Cincinnati; ECU and UCF have a history with some of the B.E. members that could easily become major rivalries also.
09-10-2008 09:32 AM
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rain3d Offline
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Post: #12
RE: Would the basketball schools accept a compromise like this?
There is enough teams for an all eastern conference, but Maybe not a very good leaque.

Conneticut
West Virginia
Pittsburgh
Syracuse
Temple
Rutgers
Navy
Army
East Carolina
Marshall
Buffalo
South Florida

add Louisville and Cincinnati back into C-USA. Make it a BCS conference, also the Mountain West a BCS. That would be 8 BCS conferences with each champion going to an 8 team play-off.
It is fairest way to a true national championship.
09-10-2008 02:36 PM
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LastMinuteman Offline
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Post: #13
RE: Would the basketball schools accept a compromise like this?
BullsBEAST Wrote:Being that you follow Umass, what are the chances of you guys moving up to 1a anytime in football? If you do, what kind of attendance would you guys have? What are the chances of you guys upgrading the stadium? Whats the opinion of the students and fans on a move?
We're still awaiting the results of our 3rd FBS study in the last 10 years or so. I'm 99% certain that the conclusion of the new study will be the same as the previous one: we need to move to FBS but there's no conference affiliation that works for us. The Big East will not invite us. We've called Tranghese, it's 100% not happening (unless the conference splits). The CUSA is too far away. The MAC is all smaller budget programs than ours and would destroy our basketball program if we had to join in all sports. Someone who said he spoke to the UMass AD said that the MAC is not an option, though whether that's because we don't want them or they don't want us as a football-only is unknown. Surviving as an Independent doesn't seem feasible. If it was, Temple would be doing it, instead of walking a tightrope with the MAC and praying the day doesn't come when they force them to choose between the MAC in all sports or the A10+FCS. So that's about it, unless a new FBS conference emerges I don't see us making the move.

The stadium situation... that would be a long discussion in itself. Our current stadium seats 17,000. Attendance historically has been underwhelming, but lately trending steadily upward. In 2004 we averaged 8.5k attendance, in 2005 9.5k, 2006 11.5k, and 2007 13k. Over 15k showed up at our opener this season against Albany, a small conference opponent with only 30 scholarship players (UMass has 63, FBS schools have 76 to 85). If we play well against Texas Tech, I think we'll have a sellout against Delaware, and hopefully create a "sellout culture" where people expect to need to buy up UMass tickets early for our remaining games.

17k, while enough to meet FBS minimums, is obviously not enough for the Big East, so UMass would need a new stadium. There are three or four options: build a new stadium on-campus in Amherst, lease Gillette Stadium in Foxboro, or build an off-campus stadium in Springfield or Worcester. Amherst is a small town and Boston is 2 hours away, so there are questions about how many more people we could get to show up. Gillette is likewise 2 hours away, but most UMass alums live in the Boston area, so it's closer to them. Springfield is to UMass in many ways what Hartford is to UConn. They're both about 30 minutes from campus. Springfield is a larger city than Hartford, but Hartford has a larger suburban population than Springfield and is wealthier. Worcester is larger than both, it's the 2nd largest city in New England, and is exactly halfway between Amherst and Boston. Probably the least likely site though.

But I wouldn't expect any serious stadium proposal or study until the conference affiliation roadblock is removed. If UMass was going to play in the MAC or a similar small conference, I think we'd just add endzone seats to our current stadium and bump it up to 23k or so. Nobody in the MAC is averaging over 20k except Temple, and that's mostly from that one home game they had last year against Penn State. Pointless to build a new 40k seat stadium for MAC football. We need a new FBS conference on the east coast for the likes of UMass, Temple, and Delaware to move into. Without one, I don't see us ever moving to FBS.
(This post was last modified: 09-10-2008 03:01 PM by LastMinuteman.)
09-10-2008 02:57 PM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #14
RE: Would the basketball schools accept a compromise like this?
Hey Minuteman, I added FAMU to the list of conference candidates. They allready had everything in place to make the jump, and were probably going to end up in the Sun Belt. They got put on probation, then FAU and FIU jumped out of nowhere and filled the Belt. Could have a great series with Georgia State, plus it would be pretty cool to have a historically black college playing big time football. The conference would be right in the ACC footprint and could be like what the MAC is to the Big 10.
(This post was last modified: 09-11-2008 10:04 AM by esayem.)
09-11-2008 10:04 AM
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LastMinuteman Offline
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Post: #15
RE: Would the basketball schools accept a compromise like this?
Yeah, I've been meaning to respond to your other thread, esayem. Trying to gather up some data first so it can be the definitive discussion on the subject.
09-11-2008 05:27 PM
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gosports1 Offline
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Post: #16
RE: Would the basketball schools accept a compromise like this?
Providence sucks? have you seen so florida play basketball? Marquette and Depaul too far west? How about south florida be too far south
09-20-2008 07:28 PM
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