(07-08-2009 12:05 PM)SO#1 Wrote:  In the state of Tennessee, even if UT goes 0-12, they still would out draw Memphis,

They would also probably outdraw every school presently in the Big East. Comparing attendance with UT doesn't mean a great deal. Upon exchanging the "mid-major" (i.e., "second-class") label/perception for BCS, football attendance at Memphis will immediately compare well with most Big East schools. We have had average attendances over 40,000 before, and, can certainly be expected to exceed that year-in and year-out after joining.

(07-08-2009 12:05 PM)SO#1 Wrote:  Cincinnati doesn’t have media represent them in the Big East Football media day. Are they not in BCS league?

They do now... BK called them out and they have sent reporters the last 2 years.

(07-08-2009 11:24 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  Syracuse would not want Buffalo. They are the Flagship in Upstate NY why would they want to share?

I trust you mean Flagship athletically...sorry, SUNY flagship university debate riles us, even when private folks bring it up

I'm not saying Syracuse should gladly accept UB into the BE, but Upstate may just be big enough for the both of us if you, for one, consider market proximity:

WVU to Pitt : 75 Miles, 1 1/4 Hour drive; then
UMass to UConn: 72 Miles, 1.5 Hours [or 52 Miles to Hartford]
UCF to USF: 85 Miles, 1 1/2 Hours
UB to SU: 144 Miles, 2 1/4 Hours

With that, Syracuse owns it's market (Ranked #81), smaller ones surrounding it, plus the alums in Rochester (#80) and NYC. Until the Bills leave, UB will be #3 in Buffalo (#51) behind the Bills and Sabres. UB ain't too shabby with 28,000 students and 210,000 alumni around, with many in Rochester and NYC too. Other pluses for UB over UMass and Delaware include:

- We are an AAU member, like SU, Pitt, and Rutgers;
- When our UB2020 Plan is complete, we will grow to 40,000 students;
- We wouldn't need to horridly expand our facilities. We can use HSBC Arena and Ralph Wilson Stadium when we need them, until our expansions are complete. We often use the Bills' field house now, until our field house is constructed;
- We are a Flagship school as well, of the SUNY system. Though politics did not lead to a 'University of NY' or 'New York State University', we are it.
- We have Nancy Zimpher advocating for us as SUNY Chancellor....hope the UC people can tell me that is a good thing,
- Canadian beer and Canadian strip clubs!

(07-08-2009 02:49 PM)RecoveringHillbilly Wrote:  - We have Nancy Zimpher advocating for us as SUNY Chancellor....hope the UC people can tell me that is a good thing,

Uhhhhhhhh... I think you will find very few UC fans who are big proponents of her. Some think she did a decent job, very few think she did a great job. Even less think she did a good job with the Huggins firing.

(07-08-2009 02:49 PM)RecoveringHillbilly Wrote:  

(07-08-2009 11:24 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  Syracuse would not want Buffalo. They are the Flagship in Upstate NY why would they want to share?

I trust you mean Flagship athletically...sorry, SUNY flagship university debate riles us, even when private folks bring it up

Then take it up with StonyBrook and Binghamton.

btw, how long do you think it will be before Zimpher tries talking Cantor into getting SU in the SUNY system and becoming THE NYS Flagship, taking back completely both Upstate Medical and ESF?

Cheers,
Neil

(07-06-2009 07:45 PM)omnicarrier Wrote:  

(07-06-2009 07:30 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  

(07-06-2009 05:53 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  Too many Div 1A FB mouths in the Northeast is bad.
The Hybrid I like is to add: (Memphis or UCF or ECU) to go to 9 Full Members
Invite Notre Dame, Georgetown and Nova along for the ride.

If there is a split, this option is far better than the one presented. Memphis, ECU, and UCF are known quantities, unlike the options presented.

To be fair to UofL07 he was trying to come up with a long-term strategy that was at least feasible. Some of my ideas would be extremely difficult to pull off.

My order of preference, currently:

Vision 1:

PSU, ND, Miami, USF, Pitt, WVU, BC, SU, UL, UC, UConn, RU (with these two - G'town, Nova - and possibly two of the following - St. John's, Marquette, and Providence)

Vision 2:

Miami, USF, Pitt, WVU, BC, SU, UL, UC, UConn, RU (with G'Town and Nova)

Vision 3:

WVU, Pitt, USF, SU, RU, UConn, UL, UC, Memphis (with ND, G'Town, and Nova)

Vision 4:

WVU, Pitt, USF, SU, RU, UConn, UL, UC, Memphis, ECU

Vision 5:

The current status quo.

Of course the latter two are the simplest ones to accomplish, the rest get harder and harder to achieve as they go up line.

Cheers,
Neil

My first preference would have been WVU, Pitt, USF, UL, UC, SU, RU, UConn, PSU, BC, Miami, Memphis
My second preference would have been WVU, Pitt, USF, UL, UC, SU, RU, UConn, PSU, BC, Miami, Maryland

In either scenario no one is isolated. Miami to Tampa is about 4.5 hours much shorter than the 8 hours it takes to get from Miami to Tallahassee. Memphis is again with UL and UC or Maryland is surrounded by schools close to it.

My realistic scenario is WVU, Pitt, USF, UL, UC, SU, RU, UConn, Temple, Memphis. Its the one we can pull off and its the one that helps us most in the long run of the ones we can pull off. And it leaves two spots for future expansion or homecoming by one of the remaining northeastern schools.

(07-08-2009 03:29 PM)KnightChris Wrote:  I am curious as to how you're choosing to define "Northeast." You expressed some uncertainty as to whether we could truly count Rutgers as NE, when in my mind that's not even a question. Of course New Jersey is NE. You then mention Delaware as being part of the Northeast (when they're not, they're South Atlantic), and are actually further south than NJ. Also, you omit the entire state of Pennsylvania (yet then list Nova as a NE team). I have family from Pennsylvania -- alums of Penn State other PA schools -- many that still live there, and I don't think you would find too many citizens of that state (even in the farthest reaches of Western PA) that wouldn't say they're "Northeasterners." Are you perhaps confusing New England with the Northeast?

I find geographical discussions pretty much pointless. Soon someone will enter and say so and so is South of the Mason-Dixon and therefore is considered South. And then someone else will post a link that will show something different.

Since this is a college sports board, why don't we simply use the TNS 4 Regions and 9 Sub-Regions:

Northeast (includes New England and Mid-Atlantic States):

New England: Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island

Mid-Atlantic: New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania

The South (includes South Atlantic; East South Central States, and West South Central States):

South Atlantic: Delaware, Maryland, West Virginia, DC, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Florida

East South Central: Kentucky, Tennessee, Mississippi, Alabama

West South Central: Arkansas, Louisiana, Oklahoma, Texas

North Central: (includes the East North Central and West North Central States):

East North Central: Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Illinois, Wisconsin

West North Central: Minnesota, Iowa, Missouri, Kansas, Nebraska, South Dakota, North Dakota

The West (includes the Mountain and Pacific States):

Mountain: New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado, Utah, Wyoming, Montana, Idaho, Nevada

Pacific: Alaska, Washington, Oregon, California, Hawaii.

This is how ESPN knows which teams are the favorites in which areas. They hire TNS to do the tracking polls for them. And yes, it is far more involved than a phone call from Harris or doing a Harris poll on the internet.


Cheers,
Neil

(07-08-2009 03:29 PM)KnightChris Wrote:  

(07-06-2009 03:53 PM)UofL07 Wrote:  The Northeast - a possible solution?

Whenever one looks at a map illustrating the NCAA football conferences, you'll notice something of interest. Nearly every region of the United states (Southeastern, Midwest, Plains, Southwest, Pacific Coast, East Coast, Rocky Mountains, etc) has at least one FBS conference that represents it. The lone exception to this is the northeastern which really only has three/four FBS team - Syracuse, UConn, BC, and Rutgers (if you count them as NE). Three of those teams belong to the Big East while the other belongs to the ACC. My proposal for the Big East focuses on the lone region that lack true representation in the college football world - the northeast. Before I discuss my proposal, however, I'll address what I see as the two biggest problems and two biggest benefits of northeastern expansion .... While the Northeast has a plethora of FCS programs (Delaware, UMass, URI, Nova, etc)

I am curious as to how you're choosing to define "Northeast." You expressed some uncertainty as to whether we could truly count Rutgers as NE, when in my mind that's not even a question. Of course New Jersey is NE. You then mention Delaware as being part of the Northeast (when they're not, they're South Atlantic), and are actually further south than NJ. Also, you omit the entire state of Pennsylvania (yet then list Nova as a NE team). I have family from Pennsylvania -- alums of Penn State other PA schools -- many that still live there, and I don't think you would find too many citizens of that state (even in the farthest reaches of Western PA) that wouldn't say they're "Northeasterners." Are you perhaps confusing New England with the Northeast?

Using any sort of definition of the Northeast used by the census or, more importantly, the actual citizens of those states, you would find 9 FBS NE teams, 6 of them BCS, 4 of them in this very conference (a full half of our football playing members). The omission of Penn State in your list is particularly puzzling since, to most, Penn State is synonymous with Northeast football, and has often been our standard bearer. While they are unquestionably in a Midwest conference, the fact that they are themselves a Northeast team seems clear.

Historically, Big East football has always been entirely made up of Northeast and South Atlantic teams. Pre-alignment, I am unable to think of a single team that did not fit into this footprint, but someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Post-conference shakeup, we were forced to take three new teams, only one of which (USF) actually fit into our footprint. As such, we were forced to expand into regions like the Midwest (Cincinnati) and East South Central (Louisville) in which many of us, at the time, felt the Big East had no business being. We did it, and begrudgingly accepted it, out of necessity. However, that was needed to ensure our survival as a conference. Doing it again now seems unnecessary, which is why I have always advocated against expansion into an area like Tennessee, favoring instead a return to our roots via (in order of preference): the return of Boston College, a Delaware (but not UMass) upgrade, Temple actually becoming good, UCF or another Florida school, or alignment with the service academies. Maryland or Penn State would be ideal, but that's just a dream.

I would differ slightly on the definition of the northeast but NJ and PA are without a doubt northeastern states. I would include Delaware, Maryland, and the District of Columbia as firmly part of the northeast. In recent times it might even make sense to include Virginia in the northeast but it is most certainly a border state now. I feel that the eastern half of the state is very northeastern in character while the western half remains very southern/Appalachian in character. I don't go by the Census Definition of regions because frankly they're inaccurate in every way. West Virginia could also be considered northeastern based on geographic position and the fact that culturally its a blend of midwestern, southern, northeastern, and Applachian. Northeast Ohio which includes the cities of Cleveland, Akron, Canton, Elyria, Lorain, Warren, and Youngstown could very easily be considered northeastern and many people from those areas consider themselves from the northeast. Many midwesterners west of the Mississippi certainly consider Ohio to be northeastern and not midwestern.

(07-08-2009 03:28 PM)omnicarrier Wrote:  btw, how long do you think it will be before Zimpher tries talking Cantor into getting SU in the SUNY system and becoming THE NYS Flagship, taking back completely both Upstate Medical and ESF?

The second SUNY chancellor was doing ok for a few years..until he started calling for SUNY's purchase of SU. He was dismissed soon after. If anything, SUNY needs to consolidate the system.

(07-08-2009 04:10 PM)KnightChris Wrote:  Isn't that basically just the Census bureau designated areas? Even the terminology is the same.

It could be. I really don't know, and I'm going mostly from memory since a TNS report hasn't been publicly available on the internet since ACC expansion. Their report was heavily used by the ACC consultants to come up with the plan.

Again, if ESPN is dividing the nation like the census does and if I misremembered and MD, Delaware, and DC really belong in the South Atlantic like I believe they do for the census, that's fine. I really don't care. As a matter of fact, I'll go search for the census info and if it basically corresponds to the above, then I will fix anything that needs fixing. Again, I don't care what is place where.

I just think that as a sports board, we should have some common language and terminology while recognizing cultural mix exists throughout all the states. My god, some of the metropolitan areas in the south remind me of northeastern cities, first and foremost - Miami.

Quote:It's worth noting that of those 9 sub-regions, Big East football was historically made up of teams from only three, but we are now made up of teams from FIVE.

Yep. A fact I have mentioned once or few hundred times before. If the league adds Memphis, it'll be on the cusp of another sub-region.

Cheers,
Neil

(07-08-2009 02:49 PM)RecoveringHillbilly Wrote:  

(07-08-2009 11:24 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  Syracuse would not want Buffalo. They are the Flagship in Upstate NY why would they want to share?

I trust you mean Flagship athletically...sorry, SUNY flagship university debate riles us, even when private folks bring it up

I'm not saying Syracuse should gladly accept UB into the BE, but Upstate may just be big enough for the both of us if you, for one, consider market proximity:

WVU to Pitt : 75 Miles, 1 1/4 Hour drive; then
UMass to UConn: 72 Miles, 1.5 Hours [or 52 Miles to Hartford]
UCF to USF: 85 Miles, 1 1/2 Hours
UB to SU: 144 Miles, 2 1/4 Hours

With that, Syracuse owns it's market (Ranked #81), smaller ones surrounding it, plus the alums in Rochester (#80) and NYC. Until the Bills leave, UB will be #3 in Buffalo (#51) behind the Bills and Sabres. UB ain't too shabby with 28,000 students and 210,000 alumni around, with many in Rochester and NYC too. Other pluses for UB over UMass and Delaware include:

- We are an AAU member, like SU, Pitt, and Rutgers;
- When our UB2020 Plan is complete, we will grow to 40,000 students;
- We wouldn't need to horridly expand our facilities. We can use HSBC Arena and Ralph Wilson Stadium when we need them, until our expansions are complete. We often use the Bills' field house now, until our field house is constructed;
- We are a Flagship school as well, of the SUNY system. Though politics did not lead to a 'University of NY' or 'New York State University', we are it.
- We have Nancy Zimpher advocating for us as SUNY Chancellor....hope the UC people can tell me that is a good thing,
- Canadian beer and Canadian strip clubs!

I like Buffalo as an add as much as anybody out there. They would need to make great strides sports wise, but everything else is there.

(07-08-2009 02:49 PM)RecoveringHillbilly Wrote:  

(07-08-2009 11:24 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  Syracuse would not want Buffalo. They are the Flagship in Upstate NY why would they want to share?

I trust you mean Flagship athletically...sorry, SUNY flagship university debate riles us, even when private folks bring it up

I'm not saying Syracuse should gladly accept UB into the BE, but Upstate may just be big enough for the both of us if you, for one, consider market proximity:

WVU to Pitt : 75 Miles, 1 1/4 Hour drive; then
UMass to UConn: 72 Miles, 1.5 Hours [or 52 Miles to Hartford]
UCF to USF: 85 Miles, 1 1/2 Hours
UB to SU: 144 Miles, 2 1/4 Hours

With that, Syracuse owns it's market (Ranked #81), smaller ones surrounding it, plus the alums in Rochester (#80) and NYC. Until the Bills leave, UB will be #3 in Buffalo (#51) behind the Bills and Sabres. UB ain't too shabby with 28,000 students and 210,000 alumni around, with many in Rochester and NYC too. Other pluses for UB over UMass and Delaware include:

- We are an AAU member, like SU, Pitt, and Rutgers;
- When our UB2020 Plan is complete, we will grow to 40,000 students;
- We wouldn't need to horridly expand our facilities. We can use HSBC Arena and Ralph Wilson Stadium when we need them, until our expansions are complete. We often use the Bills' field house now, until our field house is constructed;
- We are a Flagship school as well, of the SUNY system. Though politics did not lead to a 'University of NY' or 'New York State University', we are it.
- We have Nancy Zimpher advocating for us as SUNY Chancellor....hope the UC people can tell me that is a good thing,
- Canadian beer and Canadian strip clubs!

I like Buffalo as an add as much as anybody out there. They would need to make great strides sports wise, but everything else is there.

If anyone in any position of Big East leadership really feels deep down inside that BC will return someday then it makes no sense to ever take UMass. It would be very difficult for UConn, BC, and UMass to all mine enough talent out of New England to sustain three successful Big East football programs.

If the next proposed solution is to start recruiting more and more heavily in other areas then you run into the problem of exploding recruiting budgets. It seems to me as though it would be more palatable to keep playing chicken with BC until they finally blink and crawl back to the Big East in a decade.

(07-08-2009 12:36 PM)Gray Avenger Wrote:  

(07-08-2009 12:05 PM)SO#1 Wrote:  In the state of Tennessee, even if UT goes 0-12, they still would out draw Memphis,

They would also probably outdraw every school presently in the Big East. Comparing attendance with UT doesn't mean a great deal. Upon exchanging the "mid-major" (i.e., "second-class") label/perception for BCS, football attendance at Memphis will immediately compare well with most Big East schools. We have had average attendances over 40,000 before, and, can certainly be expected to exceed that year-in and year-out after joining.

UConn average attendance in the top 30k but we have the whole state to support us, no competition for media coverage. We can deliver our market and this brings value to the league if Yale still playing at FBS level we wouldn’t have much a chance to develop or grow. We need you to deliver your market. It’s expected all of our members. It’s just that your competition in the state is overwhelming. You have a few more years to put more resource into football to separate yourselves from the two other CUSA schools. As for "mid-major" (i.e., "second-class") label/perception look at Louisville football what they accomplish before entering the Big East. If you can do that we would have our 9th member by now.

(07-08-2009 04:21 PM)RecoveringHillbilly Wrote:  

(07-08-2009 03:28 PM)omnicarrier Wrote:  btw, how long do you think it will be before Zimpher tries talking Cantor into getting SU in the SUNY system and becoming THE NYS Flagship, taking back completely both Upstate Medical and ESF?

The second SUNY chancellor was doing ok for a few years..until he started calling for SUNY's purchase of SU. He was dismissed soon after.

For failing in his task - which was getting the only private ranked anywhere near the Top 50 who might have considered becoming public. Thereby finally getting a SUNY school somewhere near the Top 50.

The university however, was too smart to get involved especially with the state wanting too much control. Have they gotten around to finally loosening some of the purse strings so that an institution can write checks without having to send them to Albany first for approval?

Quote:If anything, SUNY needs to consolidate the system.

Hah! Agree. But fat chance, especially if you are referring to one main entity like California, as I assume. The logical choice to be consolidated under one, SUNY Albany, is the worse of the 4 academically.

Let's face it. SUNY has been in a losing battle from the start. The privates are too ingrained in the fabric of the state for SUNY to be taken as seriously as it needs to be. And the fact that it can't seem to get any institution to break into the Top 75 makes the Empire State look kind of pathetic against other states where the state flagship is the academic leader. Heck, even with Syracuse there are still probably 5 or 6 NY privates ahead of us, although Yeshiva's placement is a joke.

They tried building a heirarchy with (and I'll list them alpha so as not to offend) - Albany, Buffalo, and Stony Brook ...oops, forgot Binghamton. Then they came up with the Centers of Excellence and strategically placed them near Albany, Buffalo, Rochester (until someone screwed the pooch there), Stony Brook, and Syracuse...oops, forgot Binghamton. Can't have state COEs in Rochester and Syracuse being overseen by privates and forget about Binghamton. Is the state nuts? What's their COE, again? Small Scale Systems Integration and Packaging??? Did it even fly?

COE in Bioinformatics, COE in Nanotechnologies, COE in Environmental and Energy Initiatives, and COE in Wireless and Information Technology now those are COEs. The COE in Infotonics in Roch...er...Canandaigua (better known as cow country) at least has a great name, but someone ought to have told them the first rule of business - location! location! location!

So, in the interest of not offending anyone, they will continue to drift instead of focusing on a three region approach - Buffalo, Albany, and Stony Brook and having everything else funnel through those three - from which they get Western New York, Central New York, and Downstate New York all covered.

In the meantime, Syracuse University is on the move nationally with the Energizer Bunny at the helm.

Cheers,
Neil

(07-08-2009 05:20 PM)Krocker Krapp Wrote:  If anyone in any position of Big East leadership really feels deep down inside that BC will return someday then it makes no sense to ever take UMass. It would be very difficult for UConn, BC, and UMass to all mine enough talent out of New England to sustain three successful Big East football programs.

If the next proposed solution is to start recruiting more and more heavily in other areas then you run into the problem of exploding recruiting budgets. It seems to me as though it would be more palatable to keep playing chicken with BC until they finally blink and crawl back to the Big East in a decade.

You are stuck thinking of local resource when you can mine talent where ever you find them. Recruiting budgets is cheap compare to flying tens or hundred kids thousand of miles. Who going to replace BC if they crawl back to the Big East even in practical exchange we still need one more member hopefully in the northeast even if we help to develop one. What would happen if you didn’t have UConn you would stuck with Temple or worst in the CUSA with no BCS.

(07-08-2009 05:54 PM)SO#1 Wrote:  

(07-08-2009 05:20 PM)Krocker Krapp Wrote:  If anyone in any position of Big East leadership really feels deep down inside that BC will return someday then it makes no sense to ever take UMass. It would be very difficult for UConn, BC, and UMass to all mine enough talent out of New England to sustain three successful Big East football programs.

If the next proposed solution is to start recruiting more and more heavily in other areas then you run into the problem of exploding recruiting budgets. It seems to me as though it would be more palatable to keep playing chicken with BC until they finally blink and crawl back to the Big East in a decade.

You are stuck thinking of local resource when you can mine talent where ever you find them. Recruiting budgets is cheap compare to flying tens or hundred kids thousand of miles. Who going to replace BC if they crawl back to the Big East even in practical exchange we still need one more member hopefully in the northeast even if we help to develop one. What would happen if you didn’t have UConn you would stuck with Temple or worst in the CUSA with no BCS.

If UConn wasn't there, the BE would probably look like the former Metro Conference. Syracuse would probably be in the ACC with BC. Pitt, Rutgers, WVU, and VT, would have combined with USF, UC, UL, UM, and ECU to form a pretty competitive league. The world would have kept on spinning.

What if the Big Ten decides it wants to gain mucho markets and decides 14 schools is best? My guess is they look west and add Missouri and they look east taking Syracuse and Rutgers. Or they look fully east and take Syracuse, Rutgers, and Maryland. Don't think Maryland would stick around the ACC for even a second if the Big Ten with their money came calling. The ACC would grab WVU to replace them and go to 14 nabbing UConn and Pitt to keep up in the arms race. The Big Ten might go for UConn instead of Maryland in which case the ACC would still go after WVU and Pitt. The Big East would then be left with 3 football playing members who I'm guessing would convince CUSA East, Tulane, and probably two of the MAC Ohio schools to form a new east of the Mississippi all-sports league. Left with just 8 Catholic Schools the Big East adds Dayton, Xavier, St. Louis, and St. Bonaventure/Duquesne to their conference.

I like to keep the north/south debate simple: If you were part of the confederacy, you're southern, if not then you are northern! Im more flexible with east/west, can use either the mississippi river or what seems like a more even split, minnesota to louisiana to the east, texas to the Dakotas to the west! I have spoken!

(07-08-2009 09:03 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  I like to keep the north/south debate simple: If you were part of the confederacy, you're southern, if not then you are northern! Im more flexible with east/west, can use either the mississippi river or what seems like a more even split, minnesota to louisiana to the east, texas to the Dakotas to the west! I have spoken!

The best way to describe where the south is, is where kudzu grows.



Basically, mid VA, south WVA around to mid FL