It appears that Notre Dame is the reason that the football schools did not split in 2003. Notre Dame wanted to use the Big East for all spors but football and aligned themselves with the bball schools which caused the football schools to lose the power.

Why in the hell do you'll support Notre Dame? They have no interest in playing football with the Big East schools or joining the conference. They are the reason that you'll do not have an all sports league. They won't be joing the Big East in football. It aint happening, even in a small role.

They used the BE and are solely to blame for the mess there is now in the BE, football vs. basketball.

Nothing like being used.

River City...the BE football schools had nothing to do with NDs entry...part of the deal to get West Virginia and Rutgers in as all sports members was to let the bball onlys invite a school of there choice which happened to be ND...It was made very clear from the begining that ND was to be seen as just another bball only with the only difference is there football program is a IA indy instead of IAA

-- the BE football schools were as helpless to stop ND then as we where to stop DePual and Marqutte a few yrs back...trying to stop DePual etc would have resulted in Louisville, UC and USF not getting in on the football side


Jackson

Jackson1011 Wrote:River City...the BE football schools had nothing to do with NDs entry...part of the deal to get West Virginia and Rutgers in as all sports members was to let the bball onlys invite a school of there choice which happened to be ND...It was made very clear from the begining that ND was to be seen as just another bball only with the only difference is there football program is a IA indy instead of IAA

-- the BE football schools were as helpless to stop ND then as we where to stop DePual and Marqutte a few yrs back...trying to stop DePual etc would have resulted in Louisville, UC and USF not getting in on the football side


Jackson

Actually, but for St. John's, MU would have been added to the Big East with Notre Dame. You are right, as they did in the early 90's, the bball schools controlled expansion.

Quote:They are the reason that you'll do not have an all sports league.

Yes, but we'll have such a nice clean 8/8 split in 5 years, and we won't have that guilt of leaving the basketball schools without their automatic bid. :D

And BOWLS. How hard is it to grasp the fact that without ND, we have no Gator Bowl?

nflsucks Wrote:

Quote:They are the reason that you'll do not have an all sports league.

Yes, but we'll have such a nice clean 8/8 split in 5 years, and we won't have that guilt of leaving the basketball schools without their automatic bid. :D

And BOWLS. How hard is it to grasp the fact that without ND, we have no Gator Bowl?

we may have a 9/7 split. Keep in mind, if ND had wanted to stay w/ the BB schools, they would have had their 6 to maintain the auto bid. The split could have happened. The only way they were down to 5 is if ND goes w/ the FB schools - which must be what would have happened. Thus, wouldn't it make sense that ND would come w/ the FB schools?

wvucrazed Wrote:

nflsucks Wrote:

Quote:They are the reason that you'll do not have an all sports league.

Yes, but we'll have such a nice clean 8/8 split in 5 years, and we won't have that guilt of leaving the basketball schools without their automatic bid. :D

And BOWLS. How hard is it to grasp the fact that without ND, we have no Gator Bowl?

we may have a 9/7 split. Keep in mind, if ND had wanted to stay w/ the BB schools, they would have had their 6 to maintain the auto bid. The split could have happened. The only way they were down to 5 is if ND goes w/ the FB schools - which must be what would have happened. Thus, wouldn't it make sense that ND would come w/ the FB schools?

No. ND must had sided with the bball schools, contrary to the initial beliefs of the football schools at the July 03 meeting. If ND had sided with the football schools, the football schools could have left the BE without penalty. However, if ND sided with the hoops schools, the only way the football schools could leave was by leaving their NCAA credits behind. I assume they were not willing to do that, so they compromised and formed the 16 league.

I thought they raised the minimum from 6 to 8 a few years back?

MU88 Wrote:

wvucrazed Wrote:

nflsucks Wrote:

Quote:They are the reason that you'll do not have an all sports league.

Yes, but we'll have such a nice clean 8/8 split in 5 years, and we won't have that guilt of leaving the basketball schools without their automatic bid. :D

And BOWLS. How hard is it to grasp the fact that without ND, we have no Gator Bowl?

we may have a 9/7 split. Keep in mind, if ND had wanted to stay w/ the BB schools, they would have had their 6 to maintain the auto bid. The split could have happened. The only way they were down to 5 is if ND goes w/ the FB schools - which must be what would have happened. Thus, wouldn't it make sense that ND would come w/ the FB schools?

No. ND must had sided with the bball schools, contrary to the initial beliefs of the football schools at the July 03 meeting. If ND had sided with the football schools, the football schools could have left the BE without penalty. However, if ND sided with the hoops schools, the only way the football schools could leave was by leaving their NCAA credits behind. I assume they were not willing to do that, so they compromised and formed the 16 league.

from the article:

NCAA rules say that in order to be a viable conference, six schools must be together for at least five years. With Notre Dame uncommitted to either side, there were only five basketball schools, and they stood to lose millions of dollars in NCAA basketball tournament units if no longer aligned with the Big East.

ND's position of refusing to commit essentially made it impossible for EITHER side to move forward. In 5 years, both sides will be in position to move forward with or without ND.

Quote:I thought they raised the minimum from 6 to 8 a few years back?

That might be pertaining to 1-A football conferences exclusively.

8 is for football.

No, ND had to commit to the hoops schools. Otherwise, if you have less than 6 members, the conference is considered disbanded by the NCAA and the credits go directly to the member schools. Hence, if there were only 5 schools voting to stay together, the football schools could have walked away without penalty. So, ND must have sided with the hoops schools. With 6 schools deciding to stay together, the conference survives and keeps the NCAA credits.

MU88 Wrote:8 is for football.

No, ND had to commit to the hoops schools. Otherwise, if you have less than 6 members, the conference is considered disbanded by the NCAA and the credits go directly to the member schools. Hence, if there were only 5 schools voting to stay together, the football schools could have walked away without penalty. So, ND must have sided with the hoops schools. With 6 schools deciding to stay together, the conference survives and keeps the NCAA credits.

but that doesn't jive with the notion that the BE BB would lose their auto-bid if the FB schools left, which is clearly said in the article. if ND was staying w/ the BB schools, the auto-bid was safe.

Someone please help me understand this and tell me if I'm missing something. Also, we know the most important thing in this was having at least 6 members together for at least 5 years for the basketball reasons.

The Big East lost Miami, VT, and BC, so that left:

Football schools:
Connecticut
Syracuse
Pittsburgh
West Virginia
Rutgers
(Notre Dame doesn't count; they play football, but not for the Big East).

Basketball schools:
Villanova
Georgetown
Seton Hall
St. John's
Providence
Notre Dame

Notre Dame simply wasn't going to join the football schools for football, we know they want to stay Independent, but is everyone saying that Notre Dame was considering joining the football schools for all sports except football?

Given that choice, it's obvious that they would stay with the basketball schools. Notre Dame's answer really came the moment they said they weren't going to join the football schools for football.

It's very unfortunate that Notre Dame, which hasn't done much for Big East football, had so much clout in the split that the football schools wanted so badly.

But is also appears that losing BC was a huge blow. If they stayed, the football schools could have split, would have had 6 members for the basketball criteria, and still could have added UofL, UC, and USF for a nice football conference.

We still need Notre Dame. I expect they'll join the FB schools in 2010 or so. And most likely playing all sports but Football. As long as NBC is televising they have no reason to go to a league for FB.

Their non revenue sports need the football side for level of play, overall it is better than the BB onlies. It is imperative all the Football schools increase the level of play among the nonrevenue sports so Notre Dame will have a very easy choice to make. Bottomline: Notre Dame helps the Big East with Bowls.

All Big East schools need to travel better to bowls and away games. Louisville did a nice job traveling to the Liberty Bowl but before we are ready to annoit them as the King of Travel let's pause. UL in 2003 brought a very small crowd to the Carrier Dome (no more than 200). This type of road game support has to improve.

TexanMark Wrote:We still need Notre Dame. I expect they'll join the FB schools in 2010 or so. And most likely playing all sports but Football. As long as NBC is televising they have no reason to go to a league for FB.

Their non revenue sports need the football side for level of play, overall it is better than the BB onlies. It is imperative all the Football schools increase the level of play among the nonrevenue sports so Notre Dame will have a very easy choice to make. Bottomline: Notre Dame helps the Big East with Bowls.

All Big East schools need to travel better to bowls and away games. Louisville did a nice job traveling to the Liberty Bowl but before we are ready to annoit them as the King of Travel let's pause. UL in 2003 brought a very small crowd to the Carrier Dome (no more than 200). This type of road game support has to improve.

How does having Notre Dame in the Big East benefit the conference now?

They are an elite football program in name only that does not even play in the conference.

Their basketball is getting better but how does that benefit the Big East?

They seem to have the majority of control over what happens in the conference yet they refuse to help it out by playing football in it.

Is it time to deliver an ultimatum - join for FB or move on?

And as a UC fan I think we know our place in this - we need to prove ourselves to the conference before we can make any demands or request on the structure of it.

So my questions are from a Big East newbie perspective - not really knowing the full relationship with ND and the Big East.

CardHouse Wrote:But is also appears that losing BC was a huge blow. If they stayed, the football schools could have split, would have had 6 members for the basketball criteria, and still could have added UofL, UC, and USF for a nice football conference.

Excellent point - and it will be interesting to see how they fare in the ACC in football.

TexanMark Wrote:Their [ND] non revenue sports need the football side for level of play, overall it is better than the BB onlies.

Why do you say this? In the last year's Director's Cup, the 7 NBE bball schools averaged 91.4 while the 8 football schools averaged 91.5. Consequently, it seems like the difference is minimal. For example, while UConn is a women's hoop power, VU and PC are cross country powers. I think VU has something like 7 national titles in the past 10 or 15 years. Maybe you can argue that the football schools offer more sports than the bball schools and that ND is a better fit because of it. However, if that is true, the results of the Director's Cup tells me the football schools aren't very good at the sports they offer. Offering more sports should earn you more opportunities to score points. Therefore, if the differences in the on field performances between the football and hoops schools are minimal, I would have to assume ND sticks with its sister schools. But, that is just my opinion.

A split would be in the best interest for the Big East. All schools then would be for all sports. No non-football playing schools allowed.

bearcatfan Wrote:How does having Notre Dame in the Big East benefit the conference now?

And as a UC fan I think we know our place in this - we need to prove ourselves to the conference before we can make any demands or request on the structure of it.

So my questions are from a Big East newbie perspective - not really knowing the full relationship with ND and the Big East.

It's interesting the different perspectives fans from the current Big East schools and fans from the incoming schools have on Notre Dame.

Most fans from the incoming schools (including myself) think that Notre Dame's value to the conference is way over-rated, while most fans from the current schools disagree.

But like bearcatfan, I too will try to be less judgmental until we have been in the conference some and have a better idea of things.