(02-12-2012 02:57 PM)BealeStreetTiger Wrote:  

(02-12-2012 02:35 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  What you should also point out is that what is mentioned is that Memphis pledges to do everything it can to convince FedEx to support the Big East, but FedEx isn't obligated to do anything at all.

Memphis didn’t pledge it

Yes you did.

(02-12-2012 01:03 PM)3601 Wrote:  FedEx is specifially mentioned by name in the Memphis-Big East contract. I specifically remember UL 07 (and rath) saying that the idea that FedEx would or could be influential in the Big East expansion decision was absurd. I guess they were wrong.

Here is a thread detailing one of the original discussions for anyone who is interested (http://ncaabbs.com/showthread.php?tid=439271&page=3). If you read it, please pay attention to when the discussions occurred and the circumstances at the time (e.g. it was 2010, Pitt/Cuse/WVU were all still firmly in the conference, the Big 12 had not lost TAMU or Mizzou yet, etc).

Now to address your post. First off, my comments regarding the importance of FedEX negotiations to Big East memberships were made at a time when the Big East was in a much stronger position (i.e. it still had Pitt/Cuse/WVU). The conference had gotten back optimistic numbers for a new future TV contract and it still had the pick of the litter when it came to non-BCS schools if it decided to expand (TCU, Boise St, etc were still available). It didn't look like the conference was going to be raided and that it would expand to 9/10 teams and get a huge TV deal in the coming years. At that point in time, the FedEx deal was not an influential decision maker because the Big East had better options (e.g. TCU) and good forecast for revenues.

A lot has changed since my original comments were made. The conference lost three long-time members (Pitt/Cuse/WVU) and one of schools it recruited (TCU). The conference's TV contract forecast has taken a big hit and the league's revenue projections aren't nearly as rosy as they once were. Considering all of the things that have changed since my original statement, Ill say that the FedEx deal probably helped get Memphis into the conference. However, there are a few addition points you should consider as well:

1) Memphis was the 8th invitee to the Big East behind TCU, Boise St, SDSU, Houston, UCF, Navy, and SMU. That's not even considering the teams that rejected potential Big East membership (Army, Air Force, BYU) before Memphis was extended an invite. The fact that all of those schools were taken ahead of or pursued prior to the Tigers tells me that the FedEx deal might have helped, but that it was at best a minor factor in the decision making process. After all, if FedEx funding was a major deal-breaker, then the Tigers should have been one of the first teams called or they should have been announced with the other C-USA schools.


2) The Big East had 11 teams signed up and wanted to move to 12 (i.e. 12 teams and a championship game makes more financial sense than 11 teams and no championship team). Many of the previously non-BCS schools were already either off the board (Utah, TCU) or already signed up to join the Big East (Houston, Boise St, Navy, SDSU, UCF, SMU). Now ask yourself this question: who Memphis was competing against for the 12th spot in the Big East?

Temple - Already kicked out of the Big East once and at least one school would have very strong objections to their inclusion (Nova). Plus, it is rumored that Louisville was against adding Temple as it would have likely shoved the Cards to the Western division (they still might end up there). Would bring in top hoops school on the plus side.

USM - Great football program, but lacks a big market, athletic funding, etc.

Marshall - see USM

ECU - Great football program, but the Big East has dismissed them almost immediately in every conference expansion.

UMass - Won't be fully FBS until 2013 and has no history of football at the FBS level (UConn didn't either but they were already a member of the conference which makes their situation unique).

Buffalo - basically no history at FBS level and no tangible success in either major sport.

Air Force - The Big East pursued the Falcons rather intensely but they ended up turning the Big East down for the present time.

UNLV/Fresno St - both would have to be football-onlys and neither brings much to the table in terms of pigskin.

BYU - see Air Force

Army - See Air Force

So three of Memphis' potential competitors had already said no (AF, Army, BYU), two of the candidates have never been considered seriously by the conference (USM, ECU), and two have no history in FBS football (UMass, Buffalo). Fresno and UNLV don't offer enough to warrant a football only invite and their addition would not help restore the basketball prowess of the conference. The only real competitor Memphis had for spot #12 was Temple and as I point out above, the Owls already faced an uphill battle at garnering an invite from the Big East. So once again, the FedEx deal probably made Memphis a more attractive candidate for spot #12, but it was probably a forgone conclusion that the Tigers were the #12 team based on the fact that they helped restore some of the lost basketball credibility and that there was really no one else left to consider.

So I would still argue the same thing that I have been arguing since 2010. The FedEx sponsorship was a feather in Memphis' cap, but it was a minor perk rather than a deal breaker. It wasn't enough to get Memphis into the conference before the massive realignment occurred. It wasn't enough to put Memphis in the conference ahead of TCU, Boise St, SDSU, Houston, UCF, SMU, or Navy. It wasn't enough to keep the Big East from actively pursuing Army, Air Force, or BYU. What it probably did do is help solidify the Tigers as #12 over Temple (their only real competition for the slot). The Big East needed a 12th team and Memphis brought hoops, fewer objections than the other main candidate, and ad money (a bonus for a conference looking at diminished TV revenue projections).

I'll end by asking you a simple question. If the FedEx connection was nearly as important as you like to imply, why did it take the Big East losing four members, issuing invites to 7 other schools, and aggressively pursuing three other schools (BYU, Air Force, Army) before Memphis was invited to the conference?


Note: This is not an anti-Memphis post nor am I intending to slam the UofM with my comments. I think Memphis is a fine school and I think that if the administrators put forth the effort, Tiger football will improve to a much better level than it has been. This post was only intended to highlight why I don't believe the FedEx connection is nearly as important as the OP makes it out to be.

I'm just going to go along with Quo here and say I loved both times I've been to memphis. Sure there's some seedy areas, but that's true anywhere in an old southern city (elsewhere too, this just seems to pronounce it). The food, relative affordability of the trip, and Beale Street alone make it worth the trip, plus I know me and other UCF'ers enjoy having a colder weather bowl just to have a taste of winter.

(02-14-2012 01:05 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  I'm just going to go along with Quo here and say I loved both times I've been to memphis. Sure there's some seedy areas, but that's true anywhere in an old southern city (elsewhere too, this just seems to pronounce it). The food, relative affordability of the trip, and Beale Street alone make it worth the trip, plus I know me and other UCF'ers enjoy having a colder weather bowl just to have a taste of winter.

LOL... like what you see in Memphis is winter.

Actually now that we are in the Big East, it doesn't really matter to me how much FedEx is involved now.

Some of us were just using that as a reason to get in.

We are in now, and we are going to do our talking on the field and the court.

(02-12-2012 03:26 PM)3601 Wrote:  but they don't like to be reminded when they made fools of themselves.

That's what I have a wife for!

(02-13-2012 11:16 PM)UofLgrad07 Wrote:  

(02-12-2012 01:03 PM)3601 Wrote:  FedEx is specifially mentioned by name in the Memphis-Big East contract. I specifically remember UL 07 (and rath) saying that the idea that FedEx would or could be influential in the Big East expansion decision was absurd. I guess they were wrong.

Here is a thread detailing one of the original discussions for anyone who is interested (http://ncaabbs.com/showthread.php?tid=439271&page=3). If you read it, please pay attention to when the discussions occurred and the circumstances at the time (e.g. it was 2010, Pitt/Cuse/WVU were all still firmly in the conference, the Big 12 had not lost TAMU or Mizzou yet, etc).

Now to address your post. First off, my comments regarding the importance of FedEX negotiations to Big East memberships were made at a time when the Big East was in a much stronger position (i.e. it still had Pitt/Cuse/WVU). The conference had gotten back optimistic numbers for a new future TV contract and it still had the pick of the litter when it came to non-BCS schools if it decided to expand (TCU, Boise St, etc were still available). It didn't look like the conference was going to be raided and that it would expand to 9/10 teams and get a huge TV deal in the coming years. At that point in time, the FedEx deal was not an influential decision maker because the Big East had better options (e.g. TCU) and good forecast for revenues.

A lot has changed since my original comments were made. The conference lost three long-time members (Pitt/Cuse/WVU) and one of schools it recruited (TCU). The conference's TV contract forecast has taken a big hit and the league's revenue projections aren't nearly as rosy as they once were. Considering all of the things that have changed since my original statement, Ill say that the FedEx deal probably helped get Memphis into the conference. However, there are a few addition points you should consider as well:

1) Memphis was the 8th invitee to the Big East behind TCU, Boise St, SDSU, Houston, UCF, Navy, and SMU. That's not even considering the teams that rejected potential Big East membership (Army, Air Force, BYU) before Memphis was extended an invite. The fact that all of those schools were taken ahead of or pursued prior to the Tigers tells me that the FedEx deal might have helped, but that it was at best a minor factor in the decision making process. After all, if FedEx funding was a major deal-breaker, then the Tigers should have been one of the first teams called or they should have been announced with the other C-USA schools.


2) The Big East had 11 teams signed up and wanted to move to 12 (i.e. 12 teams and a championship game makes more financial sense than 11 teams and no championship team). Many of the previously non-BCS schools were already either off the board (Utah, TCU) or already signed up to join the Big East (Houston, Boise St, Navy, SDSU, UCF, SMU). Now ask yourself this question: who Memphis was competing against for the 12th spot in the Big East?

Temple - Already kicked out of the Big East once and at least one school would have very strong objections to their inclusion (Nova). Plus, it is rumored that Louisville was against adding Temple as it would have likely shoved the Cards to the Western division (they still might end up there). Would bring in top hoops school on the plus side.

USM - Great football program, but lacks a big market, athletic funding, etc.

Marshall - see USM

ECU - Great football program, but the Big East has dismissed them almost immediately in every conference expansion.

UMass - Won't be fully FBS until 2013 and has no history of football at the FBS level (UConn didn't either but they were already a member of the conference which makes their situation unique).

Buffalo - basically no history at FBS level and no tangible success in either major sport.

Air Force - The Big East pursued the Falcons rather intensely but they ended up turning the Big East down for the present time.

UNLV/Fresno St - both would have to be football-onlys and neither brings much to the table in terms of pigskin.

BYU - see Air Force

Army - See Air Force

So three of Memphis' potential competitors had already said no (AF, Army, BYU), two of the candidates have never been considered seriously by the conference (USM, ECU), and two have no history in FBS football (UMass, Buffalo). Fresno and UNLV don't offer enough to warrant a football only invite and their addition would not help restore the basketball prowess of the conference. The only real competitor Memphis had for spot #12 was Temple and as I point out above, the Owls already faced an uphill battle at garnering an invite from the Big East. So once again, the FedEx deal probably made Memphis a more attractive candidate for spot #12, but it was probably a forgone conclusion that the Tigers were the #12 team based on the fact that they helped restore some of the lost basketball credibility and that there was really no one else left to consider.

So I would still argue the same thing that I have been arguing since 2010. The FedEx sponsorship was a feather in Memphis' cap, but it was a minor perk rather than a deal breaker. It wasn't enough to get Memphis into the conference before the massive realignment occurred. It wasn't enough to put Memphis in the conference ahead of TCU, Boise St, SDSU, Houston, UCF, SMU, or Navy. It wasn't enough to keep the Big East from actively pursuing Army, Air Force, or BYU. What it probably did do is help solidify the Tigers as #12 over Temple (their only real competition for the slot). The Big East needed a 12th team and Memphis brought hoops, fewer objections than the other main candidate, and ad money (a bonus for a conference looking at diminished TV revenue projections).

I'll end by asking you a simple question. If the FedEx connection was nearly as important as you like to imply, why did it take the Big East losing four members, issuing invites to 7 other schools, and aggressively pursuing three other schools (BYU, Air Force, Army) before Memphis was invited to the conference?


Note: This is not an anti-Memphis post nor am I intending to slam the UofM with my comments. I think Memphis is a fine school and I think that if the administrators put forth the effort, Tiger football will improve to a much better level than it has been. This post was only intended to highlight why I don't believe the FedEx connection is nearly as important as the OP makes it out to be.

Run, rabbit, run. At one point you even insisted that the FedEx involvement was nothing more than wishful thinking on behalf of Memphis fans. I guess the fact that FedEx is specifically mentioned in the contract blows that argument. At least we can agree that you were wrong about that.

(02-13-2012 11:16 PM)UofLgrad07 Wrote:  the FedEx deal might have helped, but that it was at best a minor factor in the decision making process.

You argue that it was, " at best a minor factor." Many people in Memphis who were involved believe that it was much more than a minor factor. I think the fact that FedEx is mentioned by name in the contract speaks volumes. Here is quote from the Memphis newspaper:

"But it's clear that even without those contracts in place, FedEx and the rest of the presence of Memphis' business community played no small role in the Big East's attraction to Memphis. Commissioner John Marinatto mentioned corporate support three times in the half-hour he met with reporters Wednesday.?

(02-12-2012 02:38 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-12-2012 01:37 PM)3601 Wrote:  I know you seem to enjoy your trips to the Bluff City.

Memphis is a pretty nice town. It's got some nasty, dirty-south hood areas, for sure, but if you stay clear of those there's a lot of fun to be had. And the UM campus is nice, southern-rustic as well. A nice place to visit, about the only oasis in the 600 miles of Mississippi River between St. Louis and New Orleans.

Are you saying those neighborhoods don't exist in Baton Rouge, or any other metropolis for that matter?

(02-14-2012 10:57 AM)3601 Wrote:  Run, rabbit, run. At one point you even insisted that the FedEx involvement was nothing more than wishful thinking on behalf of Memphis fans. I guess the fact that FedEx is specifically mentioned in the contract blows that argument. At least we can agree that you were wrong about that.

I'll ask again since you apparently missed the question I asked above:

If FedEx was a major deal breaker, why did TCU, Houston, SMU, UCF, Navy, Boise St, and San Deigo State all receive invitations to join the conference BEFORE Memphis?

If FedEx was a major deal breaker, why did the Big East spend an extended period of time courting Air Force and BYU and only invite Memphis AFTER both of those programs said no?

If FedEx was a major deal breaker, why was Memphis 11th on the Big East's list of schools it wanted to join the conference behind TCU, Houston, SMU, UCF, Navy, Boise St, SDSU, Air Force, BYU, Army?

Why did it take TCU leaving for the Big 12 and three schools saying no thanks BEFORE Memphis was called to fill the #12 spot?

Last, but not least, who was Memphis competing against for the #12 spot in the Big East? Even without FedEx, Memphis was ahead of USM, ECU, and Temple for Big East membership (as I said above).


I've never denied that FedEx might try to "sweeten the pot" for Memphis' inclusion into the Big East. What I have always questioned repeatedly (and still do) is how much influence FedEx would have on Memphis inclusion in the Big East. I think the fact that Memphis was at best 11th on the Big East's invite list coupled with the fact that it took three programs saying no to even get to Memphis illustrates just how influential the FedEx deal was.

(02-14-2012 11:06 AM)3601 Wrote:  You argue that it was, " at best a minor factor." Many people in Memphis who were involved believe that it was much more than a minor factor. I think the fact that FedEx is mentioned by name in the contract speaks volumes.

If FedEx was a major factor, why was Memphis the 11th choice on the Big East's list? Why were Houston, UCF, and SMU (teams from the same conference as Memphis) invited two months ahead of the Tigers? Why did it take BYU, Air Force, and Army saying no to Big East membership for Memphis to get an invite?

You keep saying that FedEx was a deal breaking and a huge factor, but completely ignore the fact that if Air Force, BYU, or Army had said yes in December, we most likely won't not even be having this discussion. As I have point out repeatedly, Memphis should have been significantly higher on the Big East's interest list if the FedEx deal was a big factor. The fact that they weren't to me says that the FedEx deal was a minor point. Is it a benefit to the conference to have FedEx as an ad sponsor? Certainly. But it obviously was not enough to put the Tigers ahead of the AF, BYU, Army, etc.

Again, all I am asking you to do 3601 is explain why Memphis was 11th school the Big East looked at for membership and why it took Air Force, BYU, and Army saying no for Memphis to get an invite if the FedEx was so important?

(02-14-2012 11:06 AM)3601 Wrote:  "But it's clear that even without those contracts in place, FedEx and the rest of the presence of Memphis' business community played no small role in the Big East's attraction to Memphis. Commissioner John Marinatto mentioned corporate support three times in the half-hour he met with reporters Wednesday.?

Let's say you have a son who is getting married and you invite the future in-laws over for dinner. Odds are you aren't going to announce at the dinner table how your son was turned down by three other girls he really wanted before deciding your daughter was good enough.

The same is true for the Big East commissioner. He isn't going to highlight the fact that Air Force, BYU, and Army all told the conference no before the Big East looked at Memphis (keeping in mind that without those schools turning the conference down, Memphis would not have an invite to accept). The Big East commissioner's job is to sell the conference to the media and putting the conference in the best light positive. Pointing out that the conference has allies with potential advertisers is an example of selling the conference in a positive light. Pointing out that Memphis was the 11th choice and the only school left that didn't have major marks against it is an example of being honest but not doing his job.

I think getting what amounts to a corporate guarantee sealed the deal, but I don't think it was the biggest factor. IMO, everything just fell right for us. What the Big East does have with the current teams are they are almost all metro areas with major corporate support. FedEx is just a bigger player then most corporations. Either way, we are in and its up to us to produce........which we will with help from FedEx.

Imagine it... "The 2013 Big East Championship, brought to you by Fed Ex... it's a mild December afternoon here at iconic Yankee Stadium; as the Boise State Broncos take on the Cincinnati Bearcats for the right to head on to a BCS bowl game!"

LOL money talks... may be it didn't get Memphis in the first round, but despite lousy football, the school and sponsor commitment to improve football, and sponsor Big East action got them in ahead of a laundry list of other schools seeking admission.

(02-14-2012 09:34 PM)UofLgrad07 Wrote:  

(02-14-2012 11:06 AM)3601 Wrote:  You argue that it was, " at best a minor factor." Many people in Memphis who were involved believe that it was much more than a minor factor. I think the fact that FedEx is mentioned by name in the contract speaks volumes.

If FedEx was a major factor, why was Memphis the 11th choice on the Big East's list? Why were Houston, UCF, and SMU (teams from the same conference as Memphis) invited two months ahead of the Tigers? Why did it take BYU, Air Force, and Army saying no to Big East membership for Memphis to get an invite?

You keep saying that FedEx was a deal breaking and a huge factor, but completely ignore the fact that if Air Force, BYU, or Army had said yes in December, we most likely won't not even be having this discussion. As I have point out repeatedly, Memphis should have been significantly higher on the Big East's interest list if the FedEx deal was a big factor. The fact that they weren't to me says that the FedEx deal was a minor point. Is it a benefit to the conference to have FedEx as an ad sponsor? Certainly. But it obviously was not enough to put the Tigers ahead of the AF, BYU, Army, etc.

Again, all I am asking you to do 3601 is explain why Memphis was 11th school the Big East looked at for membership and why it took Air Force, BYU, and Army saying no for Memphis to get an invite if the FedEx was so important?

(02-14-2012 11:06 AM)3601 Wrote:  "But it's clear that even without those contracts in place, FedEx and the rest of the presence of Memphis' business community played no small role in the Big East's attraction to Memphis. Commissioner John Marinatto mentioned corporate support three times in the half-hour he met with reporters Wednesday.?

Let's say you have a son who is getting married and you invite the future in-laws over for dinner. Odds are you aren't going to announce at the dinner table how your son was turned down by three other girls he really wanted before deciding your daughter was good enough.

The same is true for the Big East commissioner. He isn't going to highlight the fact that Air Force, BYU, and Army all told the conference no before the Big East looked at Memphis (keeping in mind that without those schools turning the conference down, Memphis would not have an invite to accept). The Big East commissioner's job is to sell the conference to the media and putting the conference in the best light positive. Pointing out that the conference has allies with potential advertisers is an example of selling the conference in a positive light. Pointing out that Memphis was the 11th choice and the only school left that didn't have major marks against it is an example of being honest but not doing his job.

you never liked the idea of Memphis joining the BE...so now you're saying we should be ashamed or something? we're in...i don't care how or why.

*sigh*

(02-15-2012 02:40 AM)UofMemphis Wrote:  you never liked the idea of Memphis joining the BE

Nowhere did I say that I was opposed to the Memphis addition. I've always been fine with Memphis joining the Big East so long as the move made financial sense for the conference and Memphis made some needed upgrades to their athletics program (which in terms of facilities/budget/etc they have done by and large). My responses in this thread were meant to only be directed towards 3601's assertion that FedEx was a major factor in getting Memphis into the conference. Nothing more, nothing less.

(02-15-2012 02:40 AM)UofMemphis Wrote:  ...so now you're saying we should be ashamed or something?

Nowhere did I say this in any of my responses. I think Memphis fans should be elated at garnering a Big East invite and take pride in the work their school did to make it happen (upgrading facilities, etc). Again, my comments were simply directed to 3601's argument about the importance of FedEx. Nothing I said was meant as a personal insult to Memphis fans and if any of my comment insulted you, I apologize as that wasn't my intention.

(02-15-2012 02:40 AM)UofMemphis Wrote:  we're in...i don't care how or why.

Don't look at me. I'm not the one trying to validate my worth on the Big East boards by drudging up an argument from 2-3 years ago. I don't know why 3601 has an obsession with me, but since he decided to bring it up, I look forward to him actually answering the questions I posed above.

I give this thread a 3 clown nose rating.

What is the question again? I brought this up simply because there were multiple folks who laughed and claimed that FedEx was not involved. All I'm saying is that turned out that FedEx was involved. How much? Nobody on this board knows, but they were obviously influential to a certain degree.

That"s it.

(02-15-2012 03:29 PM)3601 Wrote:  I brought this up simply because there were multiple folks who laughed and claimed that FedEx was not involved.

Then I don't know why you brought me up.

#1. I did question whether FedEx's individual involvement with Memphis would translate into involvement with the conference. I never once said that FedEx would not do it or that FedEx was definitively not going to offer sponsorship. There is a enormous distinction between those two positions (maybe/maybe not versus a definitive no).

#2. I have fully acknowledge that FedEx might try to sweeten the pot for Memphis, especially after they dropped their Orange Bowl sponsorship (example). No where have I ever said "FedEx definitely won't offer sponsorship to a conference no matter what".

#3. Dragging up comments from two or even three years ago is silly as the Big East at that time was a drastically different league than it is today. For example, let's say you hate tuna. If I offer you a can today to satisfy your hunger, you might tell me how much you dislike it and how you aren't interested in eating any. After all, why eat something you don't like when better tasting food is available. Now if you were on the verge of starvation; however, you'd probably scarf it down and ask for more. Perspectives changes when situations change.

#3. My major point of contention has always been how much influence FedEx sponsorship will have on the Big East presidents. You have repeatedly (in this thread and others) tried to call me out for not admitting how "influential" FedEx was in getting the Tiger into the Big East. As I pointed out above, the evidence suggests that it wasn't much since it took another massive raid (4 schools leaving) and 3 no votes to even get to Memphis. Perhaps we have different definitions of influential, but I don't see being the 11th team approached being a top position.

#4. Basic reading comprehension and a fundamental understanding of the difference between a definitive statement (e.g. is not, are not, will not) and an expression of doubt (e.g. might, possibly, could try to, etc) are essential if you want to have any sort of discussion.

Lastly, I'm sorry that you seem to have a strong need to find validation of yourself from anonymous people on a message board. I'm not sure if you have low self-esteem issues, an attention seeking personality disorder, or if you need something to make yourself feel better. While I'm flattered at the attention, I think it is kind of sad starting thread specifically about a poster or bumping threads in the re-alignment forum that are over 2 years old (example, example). You don't see guys like TripleA, GrayAvenger, etc acting like this or obsessing overs posters they've had disagreements with in the past.

I apologize for singling (sp?) out you. You were certainly not the only one. No worries.

However, I didn't like the snide remarks made by some who made fun of those Memphis fans who claimed certain things that turned out to be accurate.