(05-28-2012 03:40 PM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  

(05-28-2012 02:50 PM)omniorange Wrote:  

(05-28-2012 02:37 PM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  

(05-28-2012 01:46 PM)omniorange Wrote:  I find it ironic that a fan of a school whose OOC schedule over the past 5 years have included:

2007 - Louisiana-Monroe and Furman
2008 - Citadel and SC State
2009 - Middle Tenn St and Coastal Carolina
2010 - North Texas and Presbyterian
2011 - Troy and Wofford

is now concerned about SOS?!?

Cheers,
Neil

We have at minimum one BCS OOC game every single year with South Carolina. We also have at least one in-state FCS team every year (as does South Carolina) at the request of our General Assembly. Every year Clemson starts out with leeway to schedule only two, soon to be one because of the BS 9th ACC game, OOC opponent because of in-state commitments.

2007 - The second half of a home and home that was postponed by Auburn at the last minute. La-Monroe was the only FBS team who agreed to play.
Central Michigan, who you also missed, was the MAC team sent to replace Temple, who had to drop the 3rd game of a three game series we signed with them when the Big East kicked them out. CMU was the MAC Champion that year.

2008 - I noticed you forgot Alabama. Wish I could.
FWIW we played SC State only after La Tech bought out of the game we were supposed to play in Shreveport to play Army in West Point. The game was bought out in mid-late Feb, and there was no other FBS team with an available opening. (FWIW GT also had 2 FCS games that year for the same reason...Army bought out of the GT game to play La Tech)
We dropped a one and done with Central Florida to play Alabama in Atlanta.

2009 - Notice you forgot TCU.
BTW, MTSU went 10-3 that year, only losing to us , Troy, and Mississippi State. They did beat Maryland though.

2010 - Notice you forgot Auburn..you know, the National Champs that year? Took 'em to overtime.

2011 - Notice you forgot Auburn.

Also, our scheduling philosophy was changing under Swinney. Bowden just wanted to assure 6 wins. Swinney, coming from Alabama as a player and a coach, knows that playing tougher competition, and in the ACC that means OOC, means bigger gates and it prepares your team for higher profile postseason play. The past two years the schedules have been under the Swinney plan, as are the UGA series (that we are going to lose a home game and revenue to play) and the upcoming series we would have had against Oklahoma State and other SEC teams. We are going to have to decide to go further in the hole to South Carolina revenue wise by always having just 6 home football games or just play one interesting OOC game to ensure we have 7 at home.

You're missing your own point. You claim to be worried about SOS and having Duke on your schedule as the 9th team will hurt that. Yet Duke is no worse, probably better, than any of the teams I listed above. May not be in terms of attendance, I don't know, but in terms of SOS I'm pretty sure having Duke on your schedule and losing one of the above will actually help, especially since SOS includes how well the opponent's opponents are playing.

Obviously I wouldn't list the likes of Auburn or Alabama in terms of hurting SOS. I realize you may not have much respect for SU fans, but many do know college football.

You do realize that the Big 12 will require 9 conference games as well, right? It looks like only the BiG and SEC will try and retain the 8 game conference schedule and I believe that is the main reason why Slive says going to 14 is troublesome.

Cheers,
Neil

No, you aren't getting it.

With the 9th ACC game the only thing that is going to change after the UGA series is there will no longer be a SOS booster like Alabama, Auburn, TCU, Oklahoma State.

Our OOC will be South Carolina H/A, in-state FCS, and the MTSU's/North Texas's/etc. In the place of the Bama/Auburn/etc. game will be the Dukes/UNCs/UVAs.

We can't, without facing severe repercussions, drop the in-state FCS game. It might as well be in the SC Code of Law because when the SC General Assembly "suggests" to a state agency that they do something, it gets done or else.

We aren't dropping South Carolina to play anybody.

We depend on the revenue generated by the 7th home game to fund the rest of the athletic department. The town of Clemson also depends on the revenue generated by anywhere from 70-85k fans coming to visit seven times a year. Remember, when Clemson has a home game it becomes the 4th highest populated city in the state of SC. We are already going to be anywhere from $8 - $15 million in revenue behind South Carolina and Georgia because of the TV contracts, bowl revenue, etc. We can't afford to give up an additional $2 million a year by only having 6 home games, especially when the facts are we get 3 assured sellouts with out current schedule...FSU, GT, and South Carolina. You find us a high profile OOC opponent each year that is willing to play us one and done at home each year and I'll quit whining. Until then realize there is a world of difference between a school who brings in 70k minimum regardless of opponent and one that can add two home games and struggle to top that number.

Now before anybody says it...I know....Syracuse will bring hordes and hordes of fans when they come. Looking at the history of fans you have had at southern bowl games...pardon me if I don't hold my breath.

You're going to get that in the Big 12 as well with 9 games OOC. Or do you think that when you and FSU go, that ESPN is magically going to say it's okay now to go back to 8 games in conference?

Cheers,
Neil

(05-28-2012 03:51 PM)omniorange Wrote:  

(05-28-2012 03:40 PM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  

(05-28-2012 02:50 PM)omniorange Wrote:  

(05-28-2012 02:37 PM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  

(05-28-2012 01:46 PM)omniorange Wrote:  I find it ironic that a fan of a school whose OOC schedule over the past 5 years have included:

2007 - Louisiana-Monroe and Furman
2008 - Citadel and SC State
2009 - Middle Tenn St and Coastal Carolina
2010 - North Texas and Presbyterian
2011 - Troy and Wofford

is now concerned about SOS?!?

Cheers,
Neil

We have at minimum one BCS OOC game every single year with South Carolina. We also have at least one in-state FCS team every year (as does South Carolina) at the request of our General Assembly. Every year Clemson starts out with leeway to schedule only two, soon to be one because of the BS 9th ACC game, OOC opponent because of in-state commitments.

2007 - The second half of a home and home that was postponed by Auburn at the last minute. La-Monroe was the only FBS team who agreed to play.
Central Michigan, who you also missed, was the MAC team sent to replace Temple, who had to drop the 3rd game of a three game series we signed with them when the Big East kicked them out. CMU was the MAC Champion that year.

2008 - I noticed you forgot Alabama. Wish I could.
FWIW we played SC State only after La Tech bought out of the game we were supposed to play in Shreveport to play Army in West Point. The game was bought out in mid-late Feb, and there was no other FBS team with an available opening. (FWIW GT also had 2 FCS games that year for the same reason...Army bought out of the GT game to play La Tech)
We dropped a one and done with Central Florida to play Alabama in Atlanta.

2009 - Notice you forgot TCU.
BTW, MTSU went 10-3 that year, only losing to us , Troy, and Mississippi State. They did beat Maryland though.

2010 - Notice you forgot Auburn..you know, the National Champs that year? Took 'em to overtime.

2011 - Notice you forgot Auburn.

Also, our scheduling philosophy was changing under Swinney. Bowden just wanted to assure 6 wins. Swinney, coming from Alabama as a player and a coach, knows that playing tougher competition, and in the ACC that means OOC, means bigger gates and it prepares your team for higher profile postseason play. The past two years the schedules have been under the Swinney plan, as are the UGA series (that we are going to lose a home game and revenue to play) and the upcoming series we would have had against Oklahoma State and other SEC teams. We are going to have to decide to go further in the hole to South Carolina revenue wise by always having just 6 home football games or just play one interesting OOC game to ensure we have 7 at home.

You're missing your own point. You claim to be worried about SOS and having Duke on your schedule as the 9th team will hurt that. Yet Duke is no worse, probably better, than any of the teams I listed above. May not be in terms of attendance, I don't know, but in terms of SOS I'm pretty sure having Duke on your schedule and losing one of the above will actually help, especially since SOS includes how well the opponent's opponents are playing.

Obviously I wouldn't list the likes of Auburn or Alabama in terms of hurting SOS. I realize you may not have much respect for SU fans, but many do know college football.

You do realize that the Big 12 will require 9 conference games as well, right? It looks like only the BiG and SEC will try and retain the 8 game conference schedule and I believe that is the main reason why Slive says going to 14 is troublesome.

Cheers,
Neil

No, you aren't getting it.

With the 9th ACC game the only thing that is going to change after the UGA series is there will no longer be a SOS booster like Alabama, Auburn, TCU, Oklahoma State.

Our OOC will be South Carolina H/A, in-state FCS, and the MTSU's/North Texas's/etc. In the place of the Bama/Auburn/etc. game will be the Dukes/UNCs/UVAs.

We can't, without facing severe repercussions, drop the in-state FCS game. It might as well be in the SC Code of Law because when the SC General Assembly "suggests" to a state agency that they do something, it gets done or else.

We aren't dropping South Carolina to play anybody.

We depend on the revenue generated by the 7th home game to fund the rest of the athletic department. The town of Clemson also depends on the revenue generated by anywhere from 70-85k fans coming to visit seven times a year. Remember, when Clemson has a home game it becomes the 4th highest populated city in the state of SC. We are already going to be anywhere from $8 - $15 million in revenue behind South Carolina and Georgia because of the TV contracts, bowl revenue, etc. We can't afford to give up an additional $2 million a year by only having 6 home games, especially when the facts are we get 3 assured sellouts with out current schedule...FSU, GT, and South Carolina. You find us a high profile OOC opponent each year that is willing to play us one and done at home each year and I'll quit whining. Until then realize there is a world of difference between a school who brings in 70k minimum regardless of opponent and one that can add two home games and struggle to top that number.

Now before anybody says it...I know....Syracuse will bring hordes and hordes of fans when they come. Looking at the history of fans you have had at southern bowl games...pardon me if I don't hold my breath.

You're going to get that in the Big 12 as well with 9 games OOC. Or do you think that when you and FSU go, that ESPN is magically going to say it's okay now to go back to 8 games in conference?

Cheers,
Neil

I can live with it if it means we close the revenue gap with South Carolina and Georgia. The Big XII payout ensures that, the ACC payout doesn't.

(05-28-2012 12:33 PM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  

(05-28-2012 11:52 AM)HtownOrange Wrote:  

(05-28-2012 10:49 AM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  When the national perception is the ACC is weak in football we need to play and win games against the other power conferences.

Clemson has had 30 years to do so. Why is it of a sudden so important? You complain constantly about weak teams and refer to Clemson history yet conveniently ignore other teams' history.

Let me help out a conference mate.

Syracuse went 11- 0 in 1987, played Auburn in the Sugar Bowl and had HC Dick McPherson not played a prevent defense (Coach Mac's statement), would have won the NC. Syracuse was relevent in football for some time to come. Coach P slacked off in his latter years and Syracuse replaced hium with GRob, for which we are still recovering, but headed in the right direction.

A few wins of note from the 80's to the present:

09-29-1984 17 Nebraska 9
10-17-1987 48 Penn St. 21
01-02-1989 23 Louisiana St. 10
12-30-1989 19 Georgia 18
09-21-1991 38 Florida 21 This is the last game Florida played an OOC game out of state!
01-01-1992 24 Ohio St. 17
09-12-1992 31 Texas 21
01-01-1993 26 Colorado 22
01-01-1996 41 Clemson (SC) 0 (Be careful about complaining about our competition, a win is a win and that one is pretty convincing!)
09-12-1998 38 Michigan 28 (In the Big House!)
09-22-2001 31 Auburn (AL) 14
12-06-2003 38 Notre Dame (IN) 12

I did not include all wins, only big name teams. No middle of the pack teams. No conference mates. I did not include all bowl wins, either. The point is to show other schools play big boys and win, too, in spite of the claims that Clemson is the only ACC school that is dedicated to football (obviously they forgt that FSU owned them for more than a decade).

Syracuse plays the big boys when they can. Syracuse usually has a tough schedule by any account. We do not schedule games using the Rutgers/Beamer method.

I know other ACC schools play big name teams and are dedicated to football. Clemson is not on an island. The majority of schools are dedicated to football but have been down. Several are on the rise again.

Nice rant. What it has to do with the statement of mine you quoted above is beyond me, but nice rant nonetheless.

If you'd pay attention to what I've posted many, many times I readily admit Clemson made it's own bed from 1990-2008. I've never blamed the ACC for Clemson sucking in a major way. I have said time and time again that we hurt ourselves.

Doesn't change the fact that outside of 4 to 5 programs the ACC simply hasn't, and despite the current mantra that "football matters" probably will not put a priority on fielding competitive football teams year in and year out. Y'all can tell Clemson and FSU "Shut up and win" all you want....in the end the battleship anchors we have at the bottom of the conference drag everybody else down. In the near future when you have Oregon, Michigan, Alabama, Oklahoma, and Virginia Tech all sitting undefeated at the end of the regular season and championship games who do you think is going to be the program left out of the four team playoff? A team from the four conferences that even their dregs have decent seasons now and then or the team from a conference with a team who hasn't sniffed a bowl game in the lifetime of this year's recruits?


Everybody, especially the goat fans, like to bag on Clemson basketball, but other than the Larry Shyatt years we have been a fairly regular NCAA tournament participant. For a school where basketball comes in a close 3rd behind baseball that's pretty good, and better than some schools in this conference can say who have a basketball first mentality.

The "rant" has to do with your presentation that Clemson is the only football team within 1,000 miles. Nobody reaches Clemson's level of football prowess. Clemson is 25th all time in wins. Oops, they are only the fifth best in the ACC! Four conference mates are historically better than Clemson. Does that mean that Clemson sucks? Never! But it does mean that there are schools in the ACC that play football.

You are taking the FOUR SUPER CONFERENCES too seriously. Slive in the SEC has already come out and stated he wants a four team playoff on top of the bowls, after the SEC and Big 12 signed their deal. Also, Notre Dame is not getting squeezed out. Further, if the playoff pool is limited or perceived to be limited, then the four conferences would face legal and political problems they can only begin to imagine. There has to be a clear majority involved with EASY access to the playoffs.

Yes the ACC is down. However, FSU and Clemson, as well as VATech, should do very well this season. NCState, Syracuse, Pitt, and Miami should represent well enough. The teams are improving. Is there hope for Duke? Nope. Every conference has a bottom feeder. Wake will always be up and down, as a small school, they will struggle to put out championship level teams, though they put out decent teams often. Virginia will always require their athletes to be students, they will never play in the SEC. UNC has no excuse with the talent they have recruited-epic fail.

As far as hoops go, don't worry. No one expects Clemson to carry that load. Though, you could beat UNC at Chapel Hill every now and then, that would be cool.

For the record, all Syracuse fans are still upset about the GRob era. Simply put, we know we have to move forward.

(05-28-2012 03:40 PM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  Now before anybody says it...I know....Syracuse will bring hordes and hordes of fans when they come. Looking at the history of fans you have had at southern bowl games...pardon me if I don't hold my breath.

Actually, you are the only one claiming Syracuse will bring hordes of fans. We have fans throughout the south, but not hordes.

It may become the Battle of Oranges, though...

This SOS nonsense forced me to go back to my old computer files to dig out SOS from 2005-2009. I was initially doing this to track how VT, Miami, and especially BC would do in terms of SOS vs. how SU, Pitt, and WVU were doing.

Anyway here is the 5-year data of the Big 12 and the ACC (minus FSU and Clemson since they would be in one or the other in the if they stay or if they go category). This data was why I know Duke isn't an SOS killer as a particular poster on this board believes.

From highest to lowest the 5 year average SOS:

Oklahoma - 17.4
Texas - 17.8
VT - 18.6
Okla St - 27
UNC - 29.4
SU - 33.6
Pitt - 35.6
NC State - 35.8
Baylor - 36.6
Miami - 38
GT - 38.2
BC - 39
WVU - 39.4
UVa - 40.6
Md - 44.2
KU - 48.4
Wake - 49.4
Duke - 50
TTU - 53.2
K-State - 66.4
Iowa St - 67.2
TCU - 76.8

Even assuming a 15 point uptick in TCU due to the new conference, the bottom three are all Big 12 teams. And 2 of them (if not all 3) likely Clemson division mates.

Cheers,
Neil

Edited to include TTU numbers. Left them off in the original post

(05-28-2012 04:14 PM)HtownOrange Wrote:  

(05-28-2012 03:40 PM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  Now before anybody says it...I know....Syracuse will bring hordes and hordes of fans when they come. Looking at the history of fans you have had at southern bowl games...pardon me if I don't hold my breath.

Actually, you are the only one claiming Syracuse will bring hordes of fans. We have fans throughout the south, but not hordes.

It may become the Battle of Oranges, though...

I'll bet right now we will bring as many Orange fans to Death Valley as they will bring to the Dome. Clemson fans do not travel well outside of the south, it is simply a fact. And it's not as though there are a lot of Tiger fans up in the north.

Cheers,
Neil

(05-28-2012 03:40 PM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  Now before anybody says it...I know....Syracuse will bring hordes and hordes of fans when they come. Looking at the history of fans you have had at southern bowl games...pardon me if I don't hold my breath.

I wonder how well attended a Clemson vs Georgia game would be if it was held in Cleveland on Jan 1.

(05-28-2012 04:53 PM)ClairtonPanther Wrote:  

(05-28-2012 03:40 PM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  Now before anybody says it...I know....Syracuse will bring hordes and hordes of fans when they come. Looking at the history of fans you have had at southern bowl games...pardon me if I don't hold my breath.

I wonder how well attended a Clemson vs Georgia game would be if it was held in Cleveland on Jan 1.

Pretty bad I'd say, especially considering the average high for Cleveland on Jan 1 is in the 30's.

Put it in Miami (further away than Cleveland) on the same date and you'd have a bunch of pissed off fans who couldn't get tickets.

(05-28-2012 05:03 PM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  

(05-28-2012 04:53 PM)ClairtonPanther Wrote:  

(05-28-2012 03:40 PM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  Now before anybody says it...I know....Syracuse will bring hordes and hordes of fans when they come. Looking at the history of fans you have had at southern bowl games...pardon me if I don't hold my breath.

I wonder how well attended a Clemson vs Georgia game would be if it was held in Cleveland on Jan 1.

Pretty bad I'd say, especially considering the average high for Cleveland on Jan 1 is in the 30's.

Put it in Miami (further away than Cleveland) on the same date and you'd have a bunch of pissed off fans who couldn't get tickets.

Lets say that same game I proposed was played in Detroit or Indy?

I wonder how well attended a Pitt vs Rutgers Bowl Game in DC would be, or how bout Syracuse vs Michigan in NYC?

(05-28-2012 05:06 PM)ClairtonPanther Wrote:  

(05-28-2012 05:03 PM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  

(05-28-2012 04:53 PM)ClairtonPanther Wrote:  

(05-28-2012 03:40 PM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  Now before anybody says it...I know....Syracuse will bring hordes and hordes of fans when they come. Looking at the history of fans you have had at southern bowl games...pardon me if I don't hold my breath.

I wonder how well attended a Clemson vs Georgia game would be if it was held in Cleveland on Jan 1.

Pretty bad I'd say, especially considering the average high for Cleveland on Jan 1 is in the 30's.

Put it in Miami (further away than Cleveland) on the same date and you'd have a bunch of pissed off fans who couldn't get tickets.

Lets say that same game I proposed was played in Detroit or Indy?

Same situation. Outside the ballgame there is nothing to do in Detroit except get robbed. I have in-laws from that region...it's miserable there from around Thanksgiving until mid to late April most years...so much so that instead of the summertime my wife's uncle burns his vacation in the winter and spends as much time at his place on Hilton Head as he can.

I've been to Indianapolis in April for the FDIC before. I can't imagine how utterly boring that place has to be when the weather sucks. If the Indy 500, Brickyard, or a Colts game were going on....maybe. If not, I'll pass.

(05-28-2012 05:16 PM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  

(05-28-2012 05:06 PM)ClairtonPanther Wrote:  

(05-28-2012 05:03 PM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  

(05-28-2012 04:53 PM)ClairtonPanther Wrote:  

(05-28-2012 03:40 PM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  Now before anybody says it...I know....Syracuse will bring hordes and hordes of fans when they come. Looking at the history of fans you have had at southern bowl games...pardon me if I don't hold my breath.

I wonder how well attended a Clemson vs Georgia game would be if it was held in Cleveland on Jan 1.

Pretty bad I'd say, especially considering the average high for Cleveland on Jan 1 is in the 30's.

Put it in Miami (further away than Cleveland) on the same date and you'd have a bunch of pissed off fans who couldn't get tickets.

Lets say that same game I proposed was played in Detroit or Indy?

Same situation. Outside the ballgame there is nothing to do in Detroit except get robbed. I have in-laws from that region...it's miserable there from around Thanksgiving until mid to late April most years...so much so that instead of the summertime my wife's uncle burns his vacation in the winter and spends as much time at his place on Hilton Head as he can.

I've been to Indianapolis in April for the FDIC before. I can't imagine how utterly boring that place has to be when the weather sucks. If the Indy 500, Brickyard, or a Colts game were going on....maybe. If not, I'll pass.

Here's the point... Southern Schools practically had home cooking for years. Of course southern fans aren't going to travel to the north for a bowl game the same way northern schools aren't traveling that well to southern bowls.

(05-28-2012 05:18 PM)ClairtonPanther Wrote:  

(05-28-2012 05:16 PM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  

(05-28-2012 05:06 PM)ClairtonPanther Wrote:  

(05-28-2012 05:03 PM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  

(05-28-2012 04:53 PM)ClairtonPanther Wrote:  I wonder how well attended a Clemson vs Georgia game would be if it was held in Cleveland on Jan 1.

Pretty bad I'd say, especially considering the average high for Cleveland on Jan 1 is in the 30's.

Put it in Miami (further away than Cleveland) on the same date and you'd have a bunch of pissed off fans who couldn't get tickets.

Lets say that same game I proposed was played in Detroit or Indy?

Same situation. Outside the ballgame there is nothing to do in Detroit except get robbed. I have in-laws from that region...it's miserable there from around Thanksgiving until mid to late April most years...so much so that instead of the summertime my wife's uncle burns his vacation in the winter and spends as much time at his place on Hilton Head as he can.

I've been to Indianapolis in April for the FDIC before. I can't imagine how utterly boring that place has to be when the weather sucks. If the Indy 500, Brickyard, or a Colts game were going on....maybe. If not, I'll pass.

Here's the point... Southern Schools practically had home cooking for years. Of course southern fans aren't going to travel to the north for a bowl game the same way northern schools aren't traveling that well to southern bowls.

There's a reason for that....it's called winter. There's a reason why my in-laws insist on coming down here the week after Christmas instead of us going up north....by that time they already want a break from the crappy weather.

Bowls are like mini-vacations after Christmas. You don't go just for the game and leave for the most part, you go and make a few days to a week of it. Where would I like to go.....somewhere even at it's best the weather is going to be cold rain....or somewhere I can get a post Christmas tan. Yeah, I can see where things are equal there.

(05-28-2012 04:34 PM)omniorange Wrote:  This SOS nonsense forced me to go back to my old computer files to dig out SOS from 2005-2009. I was initially doing this to track how VT, Miami, and especially BC would do in terms of SOS vs. how SU, Pitt, and WVU were doing.

Anyway here is the 5-year data of the Big 12 and the ACC (minus FSU and Clemson since they would be in one or the other in the if they stay or if they go category). This data was why I know Duke isn't an SOS killer as a particular poster on this board believes.

From highest to lowest the 5 year average SOS:

Oklahoma - 17.4
Texas - 17.8
VT - 18.6
Okla St - 27
UNC - 29.4
SU - 33.6
Pitt - 35.6
NC State - 35.8
Baylor - 36.6
Miami - 38
GT - 38.2
BC - 39
WVU - 39.4
UVa - 40.6
Md - 44.2
KU - 48.4
Wake - 49.4
Duke - 50
TTU - 53.2
K-State - 66.4
Iowa St - 67.2
TCU - 76.8

Even assuming a 15 point uptick in TCU due to the new conference, the bottom three are all Big 12 teams. And 2 of them (if not all 3) likely Clemson division mates.

Cheers,
Neil

Edited to include TTU numbers. Left them off in the original post

This looks like S.o.S. for teams opponents, so naturally Duke has a good S.o.S. - they don't have to play themselves! All you can really tell from this is whether a team played a tough schedule (and Duke is usually over their heads every year).

I think the reference to Duke being an SoS killer means that having Duke on your schedule kills YOUR strength of schedule.

Still, to be fair, Duke is still stronger than most FCS opponents - the problem is control (i.e. you can control which week you play an OOC team, but the ACC doesn't do Clemson any favors by allowing them to play Duke the week before, say, SC).

(05-28-2012 05:58 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(05-28-2012 04:34 PM)omniorange Wrote:  This SOS nonsense forced me to go back to my old computer files to dig out SOS from 2005-2009. I was initially doing this to track how VT, Miami, and especially BC would do in terms of SOS vs. how SU, Pitt, and WVU were doing.

Anyway here is the 5-year data of the Big 12 and the ACC (minus FSU and Clemson since they would be in one or the other in the if they stay or if they go category). This data was why I know Duke isn't an SOS killer as a particular poster on this board believes.

From highest to lowest the 5 year average SOS:

Oklahoma - 17.4
Texas - 17.8
VT - 18.6
Okla St - 27
UNC - 29.4
SU - 33.6
Pitt - 35.6
NC State - 35.8
Baylor - 36.6
Miami - 38
GT - 38.2
BC - 39
WVU - 39.4
UVa - 40.6
Md - 44.2
KU - 48.4
Wake - 49.4
Duke - 50
TTU - 53.2
K-State - 66.4
Iowa St - 67.2
TCU - 76.8

Even assuming a 15 point uptick in TCU due to the new conference, the bottom three are all Big 12 teams. And 2 of them (if not all 3) likely Clemson division mates.

Cheers,
Neil

Edited to include TTU numbers. Left them off in the original post

This looks like S.o.S. for teams opponents, so naturally Duke has a good S.o.S. - they don't have to play themselves! All you can really tell from this is whether a team played a tough schedule (and Duke is usually over their heads every year).

I think the reference to Duke being an SoS killer means that having Duke on your schedule kills YOUR strength of schedule.

Still, to be fair, Duke is still stronger than most FCS opponents - the problem is control (i.e. you can control which week you play an OOC team, but the ACC doesn't do Clemson any favors by allowing them to play Duke the week before, say, SC).

No, it's SOS which has always had two components the won-loss record of your opponents and the won-loss record of your opponents' opponents. During the time frame above, Duke won like 13 games, but they played a tough enough schedule with opponents who tended to get to bowl games, meaning they played more opponents with winning records.

All three Big 12 bottom feeders won more games than Duke in that time frame but apparently didn't play enough opponents with winning records to average an SOS anywhere near Duke's. If playing Duke is an SOS killer than please explain how the Coastal teams (which play Duke annually) have an overall higher SOS as a group than does the Atlantic?

Cheers,
Neil

(05-28-2012 05:58 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  Still, to be fair, Duke is still stronger than most FCS opponents - the problem is control (i.e. you can control which week you play an OOC team, but the ACC doesn't do Clemson any favors by allowing them to play Duke the week before, say, SC).

You have to remember that other than The Citadel, our OOC opponents are the cream of their conference crop. Furman, Wofford, Coastal Carolina, and SC State are in contention for their conference more years than they aren't, thus they typically have a high RPI.

Last year Wofford was two places behind Duke in the RPI. They finished 3rd in the SoCon.

BTW, 13 FCS teams finished with a higher RPI than Duke last season.

Realtime RPI

(05-28-2012 07:34 PM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  

(05-28-2012 05:58 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  Still, to be fair, Duke is still stronger than most FCS opponents - the problem is control (i.e. you can control which week you play an OOC team, but the ACC doesn't do Clemson any favors by allowing them to play Duke the week before, say, SC).

You have to remember that other than The Citadel, our OOC opponents are the cream of their conference crop. Furman, Wofford, Coastal Carolina, and SC State are in contention for their conference more years than they aren't, thus they typically have a high RPI.

Last year Wofford was two places behind Duke in the RPI. They finished 3rd in the SoCon.

BTW, 13 FCS teams finished with a higher RPI than Duke last season.

Realtime RPI

Yes, that's why I wrote "most" instead of all. I'm sure if David Cutcliffe remains he will remedy that situation eventually, however.

(05-28-2012 06:16 PM)omniorange Wrote:  All three Big 12 bottom feeders won more games than Duke in that time frame but apparently didn't play enough opponents with winning records to average an SOS anywhere near Duke's. If playing Duke is an SOS killer than please explain how the Coastal teams (which play Duke annually) have an overall higher SOS as a group than does the Atlantic?

Cheers,
Neil

During that time period the Coastal division had 4 teams in the top 40 or so: Va Tech, Ga Tech, Miami and UNC. That, plus a pretty decent OOC slate (between 2005 and 2009, VT played Alabama, LSU, Nebraska and Tennessee, for example; ironically, all 4 of those teams have played LSU since 2005). That high SoS is in spite of Duke, not because of it.

Neil, I realize that Syracuse has never actually beaten the Blue Devils on the gridiron, but be patient - you'll get your chance.

(05-28-2012 07:46 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(05-28-2012 07:34 PM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  

(05-28-2012 05:58 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  Still, to be fair, Duke is still stronger than most FCS opponents - the problem is control (i.e. you can control which week you play an OOC team, but the ACC doesn't do Clemson any favors by allowing them to play Duke the week before, say, SC).

You have to remember that other than The Citadel, our OOC opponents are the cream of their conference crop. Furman, Wofford, Coastal Carolina, and SC State are in contention for their conference more years than they aren't, thus they typically have a high RPI.

Last year Wofford was two places behind Duke in the RPI. They finished 3rd in the SoCon.

BTW, 13 FCS teams finished with a higher RPI than Duke last season.

Realtime RPI

Yes, that's why I wrote "most" instead of all. I'm sure if David Cutcliffe remains he will remedy that situation eventually, however.

Over or under on the 20th losing season in a row?

(05-28-2012 07:56 PM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  

(05-28-2012 07:46 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(05-28-2012 07:34 PM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  

(05-28-2012 05:58 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  Still, to be fair, Duke is still stronger than most FCS opponents - the problem is control (i.e. you can control which week you play an OOC team, but the ACC doesn't do Clemson any favors by allowing them to play Duke the week before, say, SC).

You have to remember that other than The Citadel, our OOC opponents are the cream of their conference crop. Furman, Wofford, Coastal Carolina, and SC State are in contention for their conference more years than they aren't, thus they typically have a high RPI.

Last year Wofford was two places behind Duke in the RPI. They finished 3rd in the SoCon.

BTW, 13 FCS teams finished with a higher RPI than Duke last season.

Realtime RPI

Yes, that's why I wrote "most" instead of all. I'm sure if David Cutcliffe remains he will remedy that situation eventually, however.

Over or under on the 20th losing season in a row?

Let's see Duke's 2012 football schedule features...

FIU (better win that one)
@Stanford (Loss)
NC Central (Win)
Memphis (better win)
@Wake (toss up, lean to Wake)
UVA (Loss)
@Va Tech (Loss)
UNC (Loss)
@FSU (Loss)
Clemson (Loss)
Open Date (toss up)
@Ga Tech (Loss)
Miami (Loss)
ACC CG (sofa seat)
Best case: 4-8 / Worst case: 1-11

Honestly, I don't see Duke with a winning schedule before 2016 at least.

Look, I never said Cutcliffe would have them winning bowl games - what I said was he'd get their RPI up above the FCS teams.