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potential HOF (baseball)
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Lush Offline
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Post: #1
potential HOF (baseball)
with regard to players currently playing. who you got?

jeter
pujols
jones, chipper
rivera
suzuki
thome

?????

ortiz
helton
damon
halladay
a rod
pettitte
sabathia
dunn
konerko
berkman
 
08-23-2012 12:48 PM
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JunctaJuvant Offline
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Post: #2
RE: potential HOF (baseball)
(08-23-2012 12:48 PM)Lush Wrote:  with regard to players currently playing. who you got?

jeter - Yes
pujols - Yes
jones, chipper - No, on too many good teams with only one ring to show for it
rivera - Yes
suzuki - No
thome - No

?????

ortiz - roids
helton - no
damon - no
halladay - Roy yes, Matt no
a rod - no, roids
pettitte - ditto
sabathia - building a case
dunn - yes, but only as the all time strike out leader
konerko - same number of rings as Chipper, but no
berkman - ultimate Reds killer, but no

Still to far off into the future - Chappy and Votto have the stuff, they just need to do it for 10 more years. I feel like we are going to have a bunch of years with 1 or 2 only making it per year, due to the steroids issues. Is Bobby Cox in the Hall? That guy did wonders for the Braves all those years.
Two more youngs guys in Kershaw and Verlander, just need to be consistent for more years.
 
08-23-2012 01:06 PM
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Lush Offline
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RE: potential HOF (baseball)
thome's got over 600 hr's. chipper is closing out a remarkable career in spectacular fashion. he could get to 500 hr's and 3,000 hits if he plays another year and a half. plus his career batting avg is over .300. suzuki will get 3,000 hits
 
08-23-2012 01:16 PM
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Bearcat_Bounce Offline
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Post: #4
RE: potential HOF (baseball)
Suzuki has had 10 straight years with 200+ hits, record 262 hits in one season, career .322 hitter, and AL MVP and Rookie of the Year. I'd say he gets in.
 
08-23-2012 01:42 PM
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BcatMatt13 Offline
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RE: potential HOF (baseball)
Dunn is the interesting one. He's got 400 home runs and he's only 32. With the DH in the American League he could potentially play another 10 years. If he averaged just 20 home runs in those years then he hits 600.

You can't leave the guy out of the Hall if he's got 600 home runs, can you?
 
08-23-2012 06:17 PM
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Coopdaddy67 Offline
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Post: #6
RE: potential HOF (baseball)
(08-23-2012 12:48 PM)Lush Wrote:  with regard to players currently playing. who you got?

jeter Yes.
pujols Yes.
jones, chipper Yes.
rivera Yes.
suzuki Yes.
thome Yes.

?????

ortiz No.
helton No.
damon No.
halladay Right now, no.
a rod No, steroids.
pettitte No, steroids.
sabathia Right now, no.
dunn 03-lmfao
konerko No.
berkman No.
 
08-23-2012 06:47 PM
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Coopdaddy67 Offline
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RE: potential HOF (baseball)
(08-23-2012 06:17 PM)BcatMatt13 Wrote:  Dunn is the interesting one. He's got 400 home runs and he's only 32. With the DH in the American League he could potentially play another 10 years. If he averaged just 20 home runs in those years then he hits 600.

You can't leave the guy out of the Hall if he's got 600 home runs, can you?

You can when he's got a .240 career BA.
 
08-23-2012 06:48 PM
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BearChatter v2.0 Offline
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RE: potential HOF (baseball)
(08-23-2012 12:48 PM)Lush Wrote:  with regard to players currently playing. who you got?

jeter
pujols
jones, chipper
rivera
suzuki
thome

?????

ortiz
helton
damon
halladay
a rod
pettitte
sabathia
dunn
konerko
berkman

Yes to your first group.

I'd say no to your second group. Except probably Halladay. Maybe Sabathia. A-Roid depends on how the voters view his short use of steriods.

Dunn is Dave Kingman. Average sucks. Simply a dinger hitter.
Berkman and Holiday are good, not great. Same with Konerko.
Pettitie was good, not great.

Helton benefitted from Coors Field.
Ortiz and Damon............hmmmm.
 
08-23-2012 08:22 PM
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RealDeal Offline
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Post: #9
RE: potential HOF (baseball)
It looks like the precedent is to keep out roid associated players so that eliminates Arod and Ortiz. Damon had borderline stats but i would say no. Heltons stats are out of this world, I believe he will get in despite the Coors factor. Sabbathia I would consider a hall of famer assuming he puts up a few more healthy years. Berkmans stats are intriguing I would have no problem putting him in.
 
08-23-2012 08:58 PM
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Lush Offline
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RE: potential HOF (baseball)
at this rate, i don't think damon will get to 3,000 hits. he's pretty close but might have to play another 2-3 years. what about rolen? probably a long shot due to all the injuries, but those gold gloves speak volumes. kinda like brooks robinson. did i leave anyone out?
 
08-24-2012 07:44 AM
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Bearhawkeye Offline
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Post: #11
RE: potential HOF (baseball)
(08-23-2012 06:48 PM)Coopdaddy67 Wrote:  
(08-23-2012 06:17 PM)BcatMatt13 Wrote:  Dunn is the interesting one. He's got 400 home runs and he's only 32. With the DH in the American League he could potentially play another 10 years. If he averaged just 20 home runs in those years then he hits 600.

You can't leave the guy out of the Hall if he's got 600 home runs, can you?

You can when he's got a .240 career BA.

I could see Dunn making the HoF. If he has the type of career you are talking about, I haven't done the calcs but in addition to HRs, I suspect he'd also be among the all-time leaders in walks and have a very respectable place among the career RBI and runs leaders. Dunn is a pretty unique player, but the two most similar batters to Dunn through age 31 (per baseball reference) are HoFers Reggie Jackson and Harmon Killebrew. (Thome is #5 most similar btw).

Also, by the time he's eligible, more and more voters will be more and more invested in sabermetrics and won't care as much about an outdated stat like his batting average. He'll probably also get a boost from the widely held belief that he's "clean" in an age that was (and still is as we've found out) tainted by steroids particularly in the slugger category.
 
(This post was last modified: 08-24-2012 08:34 AM by Bearhawkeye.)
08-24-2012 08:17 AM
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Lush Offline
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RE: potential HOF (baseball)
(08-23-2012 08:58 PM)RealDeal Wrote:  It looks like the precedent is to keep out roid associated players so that eliminates Arod and Ortiz. Damon had borderline stats but i would say no. Heltons stats are out of this world, I believe he will get in despite the Coors factor. Sabbathia I would consider a hall of famer assuming he puts up a few more healthy years. Berkmans stats are intriguing I would have no problem putting him in.

helton's a .320 lifetime hitter. though he's played close to a full season once since '08. not close to 3,000 hits. berkman is my least favorite player ever, but he's a hell of a player and a smart guy. i also would have no problem letting him in. dunn, for reasons people have mentioned, can thrive for years as a dh. if he only hits 20 hr's a year till he's 37 he'll have 500. those are benchmarks. a few people in a generation achieve those numbers.
 
08-24-2012 11:23 AM
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JunctaJuvant Offline
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RE: potential HOF (baseball)
Right now - before the Reds take on St. Louis - would you trade Adam Dunn for Ryan Ludwick? Straight up, no other players involved.
 
08-24-2012 11:26 AM
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Lush Offline
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RE: potential HOF (baseball)
(08-24-2012 11:26 AM)JunctaJuvant Wrote:  Right now - before the Reds take on St. Louis - would you trade Adam Dunn for Ryan Ludwick? Straight up, no other players involved.

yeah, i would. that's a tough one. i mean dunn is batting .205, though the intimidation factor has weigh heavily on the pitcher. i don't think anyone in our lineup (right now) has that. bruce to some extent.
 
08-24-2012 11:47 AM
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ctipton Offline
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RE: potential HOF (baseball)
(08-24-2012 11:47 AM)Lush Wrote:  
(08-24-2012 11:26 AM)JunctaJuvant Wrote:  Right now - before the Reds take on St. Louis - would you trade Adam Dunn for Ryan Ludwick? Straight up, no other players involved.

yeah, i would. that's a tough one. i mean dunn is batting .205, though the intimidation factor has weigh heavily on the pitcher. i don't think anyone in our lineup (right now) has that. bruce to some extent.

But don't forget, in the National League, the guy has to play defense in the outfield also. That should probably be taken into consideration in your decision.
 
08-24-2012 11:50 AM
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Lush Offline
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RE: potential HOF (baseball)
(08-24-2012 11:50 AM)ctipton Wrote:  
(08-24-2012 11:47 AM)Lush Wrote:  
(08-24-2012 11:26 AM)JunctaJuvant Wrote:  Right now - before the Reds take on St. Louis - would you trade Adam Dunn for Ryan Ludwick? Straight up, no other players involved.

yeah, i would. that's a tough one. i mean dunn is batting .205, though the intimidation factor has weigh heavily on the pitcher. i don't think anyone in our lineup (right now) has that. bruce to some extent.

But don't forget, in the National League, the guy has to play defense in the outfield also. That should probably be taken into consideration in your decision.

yeah, i thought about that. this is softball, right?
 
08-24-2012 12:03 PM
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Lush Offline
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RE: potential HOF (baseball)
so cbssportsline.com has been having a pretty great lead up to next year's hof. they've been counting down from 20 or something. and here at number 3 is jeff bagwell, one of my all time favorites. my first is albert belle

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/eye-on...ff-bagwell

3. Jeff Bagwell; 1B; Astros; 1991-2005
Year on ballot: 3rd (named on 56.0% of ballots last year)
Career stats: 9,431 PA; .297/.408/.540; 449 HR; 1,529 RBI; 1,517 R; 202 SB
bWAR, rank among candidates: 76.7, 3rd
JAWS, ranks among candidates: 61.7, 3rd

This really shouldn't be difficult. Bagwell is a gobsmackingly obvious Hall of Famer by any reasonable standard, yet he is on the ballot for the third time and seems unlikely to make it in this time around.

Consider, for instance, his top-100 all-time rankings in several important categories: 67th in total bases, 65th in doubles, 63rd in runs scored, 56th in times on base, 46th in RBI, 42nd in extra-base hits, 41st in OBP, 40th in times hit by pitch, 38th in OPS+, 37th in slugging, 36th in home runs, 28th in walks, 25th in sac flies and 22nd in OPS. Add to that an NL MVP Award, five additional top-10 MVP finishes, a Rookie-of-the-Year award, a Gold Glove and three Sliver Sluggers.

In terms of bWAR, Bagwell comfortably exceeds the established Hall of Fame standards for career and peak value. Moreover, according to JAWS, Bagwell is the sixth-best first baseman of all-time. The only case against Bagwell's enshrinement? Innuendo.

Bagwell, presumably because he hit for power, played when he did and looked somewhat muscular, has been lumped in with confirmed PED users and sorta-kinda confirmed PED users. This is, needless to say, outrageously unfair, but some voters and observers have sanctioned themselves to pass judgment based solely on assumptions they're not qualified to make.

Insofar as Bagwell is concerned, you generally see two misguided attacks. The first, put on shameful display by ESPN's Pedro Gomez, is to proclaim that Bagwell hasn't denied PED use even though, in point of fact, he has very forcefully denied PED use. (Bonus points to Gomez for then resorting to the "take my ball, flip the bird from a safe distance, and then run home" defense when confronted with the facts on record.)

The second is one leaned upon by SI's Jeff Pearlman, who implies he can spot a PED user via the eye test. Bulletin: He cannot. It is readily possible to become large, muscled and strong without the use of banned substances (including those subtances that weren't banned for the bulk of Bagwell's playing days but are now). All the bleats of "Just look at him!" can't change that basic fact. The "big muscles = steroid use" argument betrays a comical lack of basic knowledge about strength training. We should not allow ignorance to be an effective cudgel.

Furthermore, Bagwell lacks that "power spike" season that for so many is tantamount to condemning evidence, and he also has a normal and steady decline phase in his 30s. Still and yet, the half-baked accusations -- tacit and otherwise -- persist.

The good news is that Bagwell is almost certainly going to get in ... eventually. In 2011, he debuted on 41.7 percent of ballots, and last year he improved -- as noted above -- to being named on 56.0 percent of ballots. That's a baseline and trajectory that will lead to his election. But whenever it happens, it's going to have taken multiple years longer than it should have.

Would we vote for him? Snyder: Yes (3); Rosecrans: Yes (3); Perry: Yes (4)
 
12-26-2012 01:35 PM
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RealDeal Offline
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Post: #18
RE: potential HOF (baseball)
I put Bagwell in. I wouldn't eliminate for alleged performance enhancer abuse unless the information is pretty well accepted. Bonds and Clemens were tried legally because of it and McGwire admitted it so I eliminate them but there isn't clear evidence that Bags was a roid guy.
 
12-26-2012 01:49 PM
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Lush Offline
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RE: potential HOF (baseball)
i really hope bagwell wasn't a juicer. that would throw my "where i'm coming from" askew. i don't feel any juicer should get in. and where i'm coming from pete rose ain't in the hall "shoeless" joe ain't in the hall. records aren't mere numbers, in baseball. records are immortal




 
12-26-2012 02:29 PM
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