(01-27-2013 01:26 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(01-26-2013 10:00 AM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  

(01-25-2013 06:46 PM)stever20 Wrote:  Nats are going to be very interesting. Didn't have many career years at all last year. The highest OPS+ on the team from Baseball-Reference.com was only LaRoche at 128. Catcher won't be a black hole like it was until Suzuki got here. Harper has a full year. Rotation lose Jackson(who was below average) and replace with Dan Haren. Bullpen should be stronger with Soriano.

i agree with your conclusion, but i disagree with your reasoning. For one, I think laroche definitely had a career year. I realize he's had comparable OPS+'s in earlier seasons, but to have your best season at 32 is suspect and i wouldn't be surprised if he regressed. Also, Edwin Jackson was far from average. As a 4th/5th starter, his ERA of 4.03 was solid when you combine it with a 1.22 WHIP and 189 IP in only 31 starts. I'm not saying he was great, but I don't expect much more from Haren, a guy who not only pitched in a pitcher's ballpark, but also started 3 games in SAFECO. That difference is basically a wash, although it doesn't matter because if everything goes to plan, he won't be on the playoff rotation.

Jackson was horrible in September, 2-2 6.54 era with a 1.484 WHIP. Haren on the other hand had his best month in September- 3-3 with 3.31 era and 1.019 WHIP.

not really sure what that means.

Jackson fell apart end of the year. I think he was/is very overrated. I'd take Haren(who was stronger down the stretch)- flipping over to the NL Look at the numbers Haren put up playing in Arizona- 37-26 3.56 ERA 1.132 WHIP 5.33 so/bb ratio.

(01-27-2013 09:34 PM)stever20 Wrote:  Jackson fell apart end of the year. I think he was/is very overrated. I'd take Haren(who was stronger down the stretch)- flipping over to the NL Look at the numbers Haren put up playing in Arizona- 37-26 3.56 ERA 1.132 WHIP 5.33 so/bb ratio.

those numbers were a very frustrating back injury ago. I wouldn't trust Haren to do much better than a 4.00 ERA in 190 IP. According to fangraphs Haren was worth 1.8 WAR last season, while Jackson was worth 2.7. Let's say Haren improves; do you really think it will be by much more than one full win?

I think he's got much more of an upside than Jackson did. Also, it's much less of an investment than Jackson would have required- he's not worth a 4 year 52 million dollar deal.....

(01-28-2013 12:06 PM)stever20 Wrote:  I think he's got much more of an upside than Jackson did. Also, it's much less of an investment than Jackson would have required- he's not worth a 4 year 52 million dollar deal.....

listen, when it comes to the dollars i couldn't agree with you more. Haren's deal is great, there's no such thing as a bad one year deal. And does he have more upside than jackson? yes, but i don't really expect him to blow the doors off the league

Ok, congrats to the Nats...they've been waiting a long time for a winner in DC and it will be a heck of a rivalry the next few years. But, although we are a position-player injury away from problems, the Braves staring lineup looks pretty impressive as well:

1. SS Andrelton Simmons, 23, $480,000
2. RF Jason Heyward, 23, $565,000
3. LF Justin Upton, 25, $6,958,333
4. C Brian McCann, 28, $11,500,000 (Gerald Laird, 33, $1,000,000)
5. CF B.J. Upton, 28, $7,000,000
6. 1B Freddie Freeman, 23, $535,000
7. 2B Dan Uglee, I mean Uggla, 32, $13,146,942
8. 3B Chris Johnson, 28, $495,000/Juan Francisco, 25, $480,000
(miss Chipper and Prado)
9. P

Starters:
RHP Kris Medlin, 27, $490,000
RHP Tim Hudson, 37, $9,000,000
LHP Mike Minor, 25, $482,500
LHP Paul Maholm, 30, $4,250,000
RHP Julio Teheran, 22, $480,000
(mid-season RHP Brandon Beachey, 26, $495,000, who led the league in ERA at 2.00 until injured and had Tommy John surg in July 2012)

Closer: RHP Craig Kimbrel, 24, $590,000

along with a few other odds and ends, Braves are just as young as Nats with several signed for a few years under contract. Should be entertaining to watch these two teams the next few years. Will be just as intriguing as Giants-Dodgers out West.

Bring on Baseball season!!!! Go BRAVES!!!!!

I think the Nats have a huge advantage in the infield. LaRoche, Espinoza, Zimmerman, and Desmond vs Freeman, Uggla, Johnson/Francisco, Simmons- it's not even really close at all. OF will be very interesting- Werth/Span/Harper vs Upton/Upton/Heyward- advantage for the Braves most likely- but how much?

Both staffs are loaded- Medlin/Strasburg, Gonzalez/Hudson are dead heats. Wonder about Zimmerman vs Minor though and even Detwiler vs Maholm. I think that's a good advantage for Nats there....

bottom line like you said- both teams are going to be really fun to watch.... injuries will tell the story quite a bit.

(02-03-2013 12:37 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I think the Nats have a huge advantage in the infield. LaRoche, Espinoza, Zimmerman, and Desmond vs Freeman, Uggla, Johnson/Francisco, Simmons- it's not even really close at all. OF will be very interesting- Werth/Span/Harper vs Upton/Upton/Heyward- advantage for the Braves most likely- but how much?

Both staffs are loaded- Medlin/Strasburg, Gonzalez/Hudson are dead heats. Wonder about Zimmerman vs Minor though and even Detwiler vs Maholm. I think that's a good advantage for Nats there....

bottom line like you said- both teams are going to be really fun to watch.... injuries will tell the story quite a bit.

No doubt, no doubt, Nats are really tough right now. I agree, injuries will be a key determiner of which team gets over the top of the other. Like I said, Braves' position player depth worries me, but our pitching, including bullpen, I'll take with pleasure.
As a Rice alum, I'm interested in when/where the Nats will bring up Anthony Rendon. Hope he can leave the injuries behind him and become a Nats regular.

(02-03-2013 01:22 AM)GoodOwl Wrote:  

(02-03-2013 12:37 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I think the Nats have a huge advantage in the infield. LaRoche, Espinoza, Zimmerman, and Desmond vs Freeman, Uggla, Johnson/Francisco, Simmons- it's not even really close at all. OF will be very interesting- Werth/Span/Harper vs Upton/Upton/Heyward- advantage for the Braves most likely- but how much?

Both staffs are loaded- Medlin/Strasburg, Gonzalez/Hudson are dead heats. Wonder about Zimmerman vs Minor though and even Detwiler vs Maholm. I think that's a good advantage for Nats there....

bottom line like you said- both teams are going to be really fun to watch.... injuries will tell the story quite a bit.

No doubt, no doubt, Nats are really tough right now. I agree, injuries will be a key determiner of which team gets over the top of the other. Like I said, Braves' position player depth worries me, but our pitching, including bullpen, I'll take with pleasure.
As a Rice alum, I'm interested in when/where the Nats will bring up Anthony Rendon. Hope he can leave the injuries behind him and become a Nats regular.

Just speculating, but I'd guess sometime in 2014. Nats signed LaRoche to a 2 year deal only. That'll open a spot for Rendon at that point...

It'll be interesting to watch for sure. I think the rotation depth after the top 2 slots will be a huge factor for the Nats. Also will be interesting to see how Storen and Clippard adjust to being setup guys. If they can make that adjustment, if Nats are up after 6, it's game over.

I think the emotional story will be the Nats with Davey Johnson- trying to send him out on top. Kind of similar to what Braves dealt with 2 years ago with Bobby Cox.

(02-03-2013 12:25 AM)GoodOwl Wrote:  Ok, congrats to the Nats...they've been waiting a long time for a winner in DC and it will be a heck of a rivalry the next few years. But, although we are a position-player injury away from problems, the Braves staring lineup looks pretty impressive as well:

1. SS Andrelton Simmons, 23, $480,000
2. RF Jason Heyward, 23, $565,000
3. LF Justin Upton, 25, $6,958,333
4. C Brian McCann, 28, $11,500,000 (Gerald Laird, 33, $1,000,000)
5. CF B.J. Upton, 28, $7,000,000
6. 1B Freddie Freeman, 23, $535,000
7. 2B Dan Uglee, I mean Uggla, 32, $13,146,942
8. 3B Chris Johnson, 28, $495,000/Juan Francisco, 25, $480,000
(miss Chipper and Prado)
9. P

Starters:
RHP Kris Medlin, 27, $490,000
RHP Tim Hudson, 37, $9,000,000
LHP Mike Minor, 25, $482,500
LHP Paul Maholm, 30, $4,250,000
RHP Julio Teheran, 22, $480,000
(mid-season RHP Brandon Beachey, 26, $495,000, who led the league in ERA at 2.00 until injured and had Tommy John surg in July 2012)

Closer: RHP Craig Kimbrel, 24, $590,000

along with a few other odds and ends, Braves are just as young as Nats with several signed for a few years under contract. Should be entertaining to watch these two teams the next few years. Will be just as intriguing as Giants-Dodgers out West.

Bring on Baseball season!!!! Go BRAVES!!!!!

i don't get why Braves' fans continue to overrate the Uptons and McCann. On the road in 2012, Upton was .234/.280/.408. What's he gonna do in the cavern-like confines of Turner Field where even jason Heyward has trouble? Hopefully for you, i'm wrong, but BJ is right up there with Delmon Young as one of the laziest ballplayers in the league. He doesn't walk much anymore and he strikes out as often as Michael Bourn. He's incredibly overpaid and no way his 28 HR carries over to Atlanta. Denard Span, who's getting paid a lot less than Upton, had an OPS of .738, which was only 14 pts behind Upton. I used to work for the Durham Bulls when BJ was playing SS for them and even then he was an incredibly moody and lazy player.

last season, away from the launching pad that is Arizona's park, Justin's OPS was .670. Let's see what happens when he plays 100 games in Turner field, Citi Field and Miami's ballpark. He's another lazy player, albeit not as lazy as his brother.

As for McCann, he was once one of the top 2 or 3 catchers in baseball, but injuries and Turner field seem to have really taken their toll. Will he get back to the .817 OPS he posted in 2011? It's hardly a given

(02-03-2013 01:36 PM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  

(02-03-2013 12:25 AM)GoodOwl Wrote:  Ok, congrats to the Nats...they've been waiting a long time for a winner in DC and it will be a heck of a rivalry the next few years. But, although we are a position-player injury away from problems, the Braves staring lineup looks pretty impressive as well:

1. SS Andrelton Simmons, 23, $480,000
2. RF Jason Heyward, 23, $565,000
3. LF Justin Upton, 25, $6,958,333
4. C Brian McCann, 28, $11,500,000 (Gerald Laird, 33, $1,000,000)
5. CF B.J. Upton, 28, $7,000,000
6. 1B Freddie Freeman, 23, $535,000
7. 2B Dan Uglee, I mean Uggla, 32, $13,146,942
8. 3B Chris Johnson, 28, $495,000/Juan Francisco, 25, $480,000
(miss Chipper and Prado)
9. P

Starters:
RHP Kris Medlin, 27, $490,000
RHP Tim Hudson, 37, $9,000,000
LHP Mike Minor, 25, $482,500
LHP Paul Maholm, 30, $4,250,000
RHP Julio Teheran, 22, $480,000
(mid-season RHP Brandon Beachey, 26, $495,000, who led the league in ERA at 2.00 until injured and had Tommy John surg in July 2012)

Closer: RHP Craig Kimbrel, 24, $590,000

along with a few other odds and ends, Braves are just as young as Nats with several signed for a few years under contract. Should be entertaining to watch these two teams the next few years. Will be just as intriguing as Giants-Dodgers out West.

Bring on Baseball season!!!! Go BRAVES!!!!!

i don't get why Braves' fans continue to overrate the Uptons and McCann. On the road in 2012, Upton was .234/.280/.408. What's he gonna do in the cavern-like confines of Turner Field where even jason Heyward has trouble? Hopefully for you, i'm wrong, but BJ is right up there with Delmon Young as one of the laziest ballplayers in the league. He doesn't walk much anymore and he strikes out as often as Michael Bourn. He's incredibly overpaid and no way his 28 HR carries over to Atlanta. Denard Span, who's getting paid a lot less than Upton, had an OPS of .738, which was only 14 pts behind Upton. I used to work for the Durham Bulls when BJ was playing SS for them and even then he was an incredibly moody and lazy player.

last season, away from the launching pad that is Arizona's park, Justin's OPS was .670. Let's see what happens when he plays 100 games in Turner field, Citi Field and Miami's ballpark. He's another lazy player, albeit not as lazy as his brother.

As for McCann, he was once one of the top 2 or 3 catchers in baseball, but injuries and Turner field seem to have really taken their toll. Will he get back to the .817 OPS he posted in 2011? It's hardly a given

true, but catching isn't exactly a position of strength for the Nats either(and will be an interesting position for the Nats this year). Can Suzuki and Ramos get close enough to match McCann? Very interesting question there....

(02-03-2013 03:18 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-03-2013 01:36 PM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  

(02-03-2013 12:25 AM)GoodOwl Wrote:  Ok, congrats to the Nats...they've been waiting a long time for a winner in DC and it will be a heck of a rivalry the next few years. But, although we are a position-player injury away from problems, the Braves staring lineup looks pretty impressive as well:

1. SS Andrelton Simmons, 23, $480,000
2. RF Jason Heyward, 23, $565,000
3. LF Justin Upton, 25, $6,958,333
4. C Brian McCann, 28, $11,500,000 (Gerald Laird, 33, $1,000,000)
5. CF B.J. Upton, 28, $7,000,000
6. 1B Freddie Freeman, 23, $535,000
7. 2B Dan Uglee, I mean Uggla, 32, $13,146,942
8. 3B Chris Johnson, 28, $495,000/Juan Francisco, 25, $480,000
(miss Chipper and Prado)
9. P

Starters:
RHP Kris Medlin, 27, $490,000
RHP Tim Hudson, 37, $9,000,000
LHP Mike Minor, 25, $482,500
LHP Paul Maholm, 30, $4,250,000
RHP Julio Teheran, 22, $480,000
(mid-season RHP Brandon Beachey, 26, $495,000, who led the league in ERA at 2.00 until injured and had Tommy John surg in July 2012)

Closer: RHP Craig Kimbrel, 24, $590,000

along with a few other odds and ends, Braves are just as young as Nats with several signed for a few years under contract. Should be entertaining to watch these two teams the next few years. Will be just as intriguing as Giants-Dodgers out West.

Bring on Baseball season!!!! Go BRAVES!!!!!

i don't get why Braves' fans continue to overrate the Uptons and McCann. On the road in 2012, Upton was .234/.280/.408. What's he gonna do in the cavern-like confines of Turner Field where even jason Heyward has trouble? Hopefully for you, i'm wrong, but BJ is right up there with Delmon Young as one of the laziest ballplayers in the league. He doesn't walk much anymore and he strikes out as often as Michael Bourn. He's incredibly overpaid and no way his 28 HR carries over to Atlanta. Denard Span, who's getting paid a lot less than Upton, had an OPS of .738, which was only 14 pts behind Upton. I used to work for the Durham Bulls when BJ was playing SS for them and even then he was an incredibly moody and lazy player.

last season, away from the launching pad that is Arizona's park, Justin's OPS was .670. Let's see what happens when he plays 100 games in Turner field, Citi Field and Miami's ballpark. He's another lazy player, albeit not as lazy as his brother.

As for McCann, he was once one of the top 2 or 3 catchers in baseball, but injuries and Turner field seem to have really taken their toll. Will he get back to the .817 OPS he posted in 2011? It's hardly a given

true, but catching isn't exactly a position of strength for the Nats either(and will be an interesting position for the Nats this year). Can Suzuki and Ramos get close enough to match McCann? Very interesting question there....

wasn't comparing them to the Nats, just pointing out how braves' fans constantly overrate their players. Not to mention the media who always seem to treat the braves as if they're god's gift to baseball.

As for the Nats, you have to wonder which Span they'll be getting; last year's version, or the previous two years (although only 70 games in 2011).

(02-03-2013 01:36 PM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  i don't get why Braves' fans continue to overrate the Uptons and McCann. On the road in 2012, Upton was .234/.280/.408. What's he gonna do in the cavern-like confines of Turner Field where even jason Heyward has trouble? Hopefully for you, i'm wrong, but BJ is right up there with Delmon Young as one of the laziest ballplayers in the league. He doesn't walk much anymore and he strikes out as often as Michael Bourn. He's incredibly overpaid and no way his 28 HR carries over to Atlanta. Denard Span, who's getting paid a lot less than Upton, had an OPS of .738, which was only 14 pts behind Upton. I used to work for the Durham Bulls when BJ was playing SS for them and even then he was an incredibly moody and lazy player.

last season, away from the launching pad that is Arizona's park, Justin's OPS was .670. Let's see what happens when he plays 100 games in Turner field, Citi Field and Miami's ballpark. He's another lazy player, albeit not as lazy as his brother.

As for McCann, he was once one of the top 2 or 3 catchers in baseball, but injuries and Turner field seem to have really taken their toll. Will he get back to the .817 OPS he posted in 2011? It's hardly a given

Well, baseball is pretty much all we have as far as a winner here in Atlanta. Before you say the "Fail-coneheads"...well, one and done in the playoffs after leading the NFL all season just repeats that franchise's sad history. So Atlanta has learned that the Braves are the best team to root for (in the NHL, the Flames and Thrashers left, and the Hawks are another on the "can't get out of the early rounds in the NBA" treadmill.)

Now, we weren't going to re-sign Bourne, Braves usually avoid Boras guys these days if they can help it. And we tried to get Span from Minnesota, but Wash. beat us there. Kudos to them-- we'll see how it works out for them. LF has been an adventure for Atlanta for a long time (we even moved Chipper there a few years to try to stabilize it, if you remember) so at least with this outfioeld we have some stability barring injury. Also, these guys will be here for a few years as they are all signed (outfielders).

I guess it would be nice if the Uptons didn't come with their "lazy" reputations, but then if they did not, we wouldn't even have had a chance to get them, would we? Sometimes, a change of scenery does a young player good, sometimes not. Atlanta does have 2 hitting coaches these days, so perhaps the bet is they feel they can bring out their inner superstars? It beats Reed Johnson and Jose "Georgie-boy" Constanza or Jordan Schaffer in LF. And Justin Upton and BJ Upton struck out only a few more times than....Michael Bourne, who is still unsigned as I type this. Bourne is older than BJ, and I think BJ still has more long-term upside than Bourne does at this point.

As for McCann, yes, it seems the injury bug has a hold of him the last few years. He started off strong, but we gave him a 1 year deal to see if he can come back. Problem is, the trade with Texas a few years ago to put them into the WS with all the former Braves for a Teixeira rental was a real organization staller. Saltalamacchia, Neftali Feliz, Elvis Andrus and a couple of others would sure come in handy about now.

Oh, well. We're not the Yankees or the Dodgers, we can't just buy everyone we want, so we have to take calculated risks. This year the Uptons are the calculated risk we feel is the best option given the budget limitations put on by absentee owner Liberty Media, and the free agent market, which wasn't that hot this year for us.

As I said in my post, I like our young starting lineup, but we are very thin position-player wise if anyone gets injured. Of course, it would really help if Dan Uggla reverted to something resembling who he was in Florida, but I suspect some HGH or other PEDs may have played a part with him back then and now it's harder for him to perform without them.

And just FYI, Atlanta was the original "Launching Pad" (nicknamed in the 70's) due to Atlanta being the second-highest MLB city in elevation after Colorado. I don't think the park differential will be as much of a factor as you do, although it may have some small effect. We'll see.

Either way, I'm excited for the season. While it will be interesting for you out west to see if the Giants can hold off/keep up with the Dodger's new crowd, we here in the east will enjoy our battles with the Nationals.

I'm glad the stupor bowled is over tonight. Pitchers and Catchers reporting soon! Spring is in the air!

(02-03-2013 03:31 PM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  wasn't comparing them to the Nats, just pointing out how braves' fans constantly overrate their players. Not to mention the media who always seem to treat the braves as if they're god's gift to baseball.

I'm not sure what media you've been reading...but to me, much of the the national media almost completely ignores the Braves, it seems. Oh, they have some small measure of respect for our organizational ability to develop and resurrect pitchers, but ESPN is basically the Red Sox-Yankees network as far as baseball. And the Giants get a heck of a lot more national attention what with Lincecum, Cain, Buster Posey and Pac Bell Park (or what is it called now?) being such a near-perfect park to play in (I hope to visit it one day--ya'll are real lucky to have that gem, to watch games in.)

No, I think the braves are far down the list as far as national media attention, so I repectfully disagree with you there.

My original post here was to draw attention to a mid-market team, the Braves, having a pretty decent and young team that was affordable. We're not the Yanks or Dodgers or large-market guys, so I think given our limitations, we've done a pretty good job on paper. We''l have to watch and see how it plays out, but I believe this will be an enjoyable season for me as a baseball fan in general and a Braves fan in particular.


As for many Braves posters being "homers", well, I would expect you to stick up for your team(s) too. Perhaps you just root for the Giants, but Billy Beane has done remarkable things with the A's as well. And I loved Moneyball the book and the movie. Wish we could see a sequel. I didn't want the movie to end.

(02-03-2013 11:29 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  

(02-03-2013 01:36 PM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  i don't get why Braves' fans continue to overrate the Uptons and McCann. On the road in 2012, Upton was .234/.280/.408. What's he gonna do in the cavern-like confines of Turner Field where even jason Heyward has trouble? Hopefully for you, i'm wrong, but BJ is right up there with Delmon Young as one of the laziest ballplayers in the league. He doesn't walk much anymore and he strikes out as often as Michael Bourn. He's incredibly overpaid and no way his 28 HR carries over to Atlanta. Denard Span, who's getting paid a lot less than Upton, had an OPS of .738, which was only 14 pts behind Upton. I used to work for the Durham Bulls when BJ was playing SS for them and even then he was an incredibly moody and lazy player.

last season, away from the launching pad that is Arizona's park, Justin's OPS was .670. Let's see what happens when he plays 100 games in Turner field, Citi Field and Miami's ballpark. He's another lazy player, albeit not as lazy as his brother.

As for McCann, he was once one of the top 2 or 3 catchers in baseball, but injuries and Turner field seem to have really taken their toll. Will he get back to the .817 OPS he posted in 2011? It's hardly a given

Well, baseball is pretty much all we have as far as a winner here in Atlanta. Before you say the "Fail-coneheads"...well, one and done in the playoffs after leading the NFL all season just repeats that franchise's sad history. So Atlanta has learned that the Braves are the best team to root for (in the NHL, the Flames and Thrashers left, and the Hawks are another on the "can't get out of the early rounds in the NBA" treadmill.)

Now, we weren't going to re-sign Bourne, Braves usually avoid Boras guys these days if they can help it. And we tried to get Span from Minnesota, but Wash. beat us there. Kudos to them-- we'll see how it works out for them. LF has been an adventure for Atlanta for a long time (we even moved Chipper there a few years to try to stabilize it, if you remember) so at least with this outfioeld we have some stability barring injury. Also, these guys will be here for a few years as they are all signed (outfielders).

I guess it would be nice if the Uptons didn't come with their "lazy" reputations, but then if they did not, we wouldn't even have had a chance to get them, would we? Sometimes, a change of scenery does a young player good, sometimes not. Atlanta does have 2 hitting coaches these days, so perhaps the bet is they feel they can bring out their inner superstars? It beats Reed Johnson and Jose "Georgie-boy" Constanza or Jordan Schaffer in LF. And Justin Upton and BJ Upton struck out only a few more times than....Michael Bourne, who is still unsigned as I type this. Bourne is older than BJ, and I think BJ still has more long-term upside than Bourne does at this point.

As for McCann, yes, it seems the injury bug has a hold of him the last few years. He started off strong, but we gave him a 1 year deal to see if he can come back. Problem is, the trade with Texas a few years ago to put them into the WS with all the former Braves for a Teixeira rental was a real organization staller. Saltalamacchia, Neftali Feliz, Elvis Andrus and a couple of others would sure come in handy about now.

Oh, well. We're not the Yankees or the Dodgers, we can't just buy everyone we want, so we have to take calculated risks. This year the Uptons are the calculated risk we feel is the best option given the budget limitations put on by absentee owner Liberty Media, and the free agent market, which wasn't that hot this year for us.

As I said in my post, I like our young starting lineup, but we are very thin position-player wise if anyone gets injured. Of course, it would really help if Dan Uggla reverted to something resembling who he was in Florida, but I suspect some HGH or other PEDs may have played a part with him back then and now it's harder for him to perform without them.

And just FYI, Atlanta was the original "Launching Pad" (nicknamed in the 70's) due to Atlanta being the second-highest MLB city in elevation after Colorado. I don't think the park differential will be as much of a factor as you do, although it may have some small effect. We'll see.

Either way, I'm excited for the season. While it will be interesting for you out west to see if the Giants can hold off/keep up with the Dodger's new crowd, we here in the east will enjoy our battles with the Nationals.

I'm glad the stupor bowled is over tonight. Pitchers and Catchers reporting soon! Spring is in the air!

I'll address this in parts:

-don't know what "fail-coneheads" means, so i'll skip over it.

-listen, the Braves have more stability in the OF than they - or most teams - have, so that's something. My main point is that the Braves overpaid for a certain amount of frustrating stability, meaning that a guy like Prado is consistent and doesn't give away outs for nothing unlike BJ who will make a lot of unproductive outs.

-why do people keep talking about this whole 2 hitting coaches thing? how does having an extra coach equate to more progress/improvement?

I'll skip over a couple pts and go to the one about the ballpark. Frankly, I don't understand how you can pretend that Turner Field doesn't completely repress hitting. Per game, there were .873 HR hit, which made it the 9th toughest park to hit one out. You really have to muscle up to get it out. That being said, I didn't realize tropicana field was statistically tougher for HR, although I imagine part of that was due to the Rays' complete lack of power as well as the injury to Longoria.

(02-03-2013 11:43 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  

(02-03-2013 03:31 PM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  wasn't comparing them to the Nats, just pointing out how braves' fans constantly overrate their players. Not to mention the media who always seem to treat the braves as if they're god's gift to baseball.

I'm not sure what media you've been reading...but to me, much of the the national media almost completely ignores the Braves, it seems. Oh, they have some small measure of respect for our organizational ability to develop and resurrect pitchers, but ESPN is basically the Red Sox-Yankees network as far as baseball. And the Giants get a heck of a lot more national attention what with Lincecum, Cain, Buster Posey and Pac Bell Park (or what is it called now?) being such a near-perfect park to play in (I hope to visit it one day--ya'll are real lucky to have that gem, to watch games in.)

No, I think the braves are far down the list as far as national media attention, so I repectfully disagree with you there.

My original post here was to draw attention to a mid-market team, the Braves, having a pretty decent and young team that was affordable. We're not the Yanks or Dodgers or large-market guys, so I think given our limitations, we've done a pretty good job on paper. We''l have to watch and see how it plays out, but I believe this will be an enjoyable season for me as a baseball fan in general and a Braves fan in particular.


As for many Braves posters being "homers", well, I would expect you to stick up for your team(s) too. Perhaps you just root for the Giants, but Billy Beane has done remarkable things with the A's as well. And I loved Moneyball the book and the movie. Wish we could see a sequel. I didn't want the movie to end.

I'm not referring to the volume with which the media talks about the Braves, so much as the reverence with which they're spoken about. This goes back to the 90's when the Braves would consistently do nothing with some of the greatest rotations of all time. Evidence of this absurd bias can be found in a recent ESPN article talking about how the braves now have three 5-tool outfielders. Do people not realize that "hitting" is one of the tools? BJ hasn't hit above .246 since 2008. Justin is a career .278 hitter and hit a lousy 26 road HR in the past 3 seasons combined. But in typical sports media fashion, everything the Braves touch will turn to gold, doesn't matter that they've come up short in basically every year since Sid Bream.

And if we want to include the Giants in this discussion, let's mention how they're constantly ranked lower than the Braves, yet have won 2 of the past 3 world series and have been to 3 in the last decade. Yet Braves players are automatically going to improve year after year. It's really incredible how often the Braves are blown by the media.

As for Moneyball, come on man! That movie was not only boring, btu so biased and inaccurate. For one, they spent half the freakin movie, lauding the acquisition of Chad Bradford, but what most people don't realize is that Bradford was with the A's for all of 2001, a year before the A's supposedly adopted the Moneyball philosophy. The movie also skates over the fact that their first "moneyball" draft basically produced a pile of crap. They also fail to mention that the Twins, who beat them to advance to the ALCS, had a similarly meager payroll with which to work. The movie made it seem as if the A's went up against some kind of spendthrift juggernaut, when in reality it was the pauper-like Twins

(02-04-2013 09:44 PM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  I'll address this in parts:

-don't know what "fail-coneheads" means, so i'll skip over it.

the Falcons (it's a nickname I've heard a few locals use here for them.)

(02-04-2013 09:44 PM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  -listen, the Braves have more stability in the OF than they - or most teams - have, so that's something. My main point is that the Braves overpaid for a certain amount of frustrating stability, meaning that a guy like Prado is consistent and doesn't give away outs for nothing unlike BJ who will make a lot of unproductive outs.

not saying we didn't overpay a bit for them. And we all miss Prado here in Atlanta--that fact has been on almost every comment bboard around by almost every Atlantan. But Prado was offered and refused to sign here. We needed to go ahead and realize he wanted more dollars than his value to us and/or to test free agency, so we got some value for him.
I love the kind of player Prado is, but the writing was on the wall he was gone next year.

I'm thinking the Uptons just aren't flashy enough for many. Their pedestrian lay looks a bit lazier than perhaps it really is. Example: BJ struck out only slightly more than Bourne did last year. I think Justin is young enough that the jury is still out on the kind of player he can be. We'll see.

(02-04-2013 09:44 PM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  -why do people keep talking about this whole 2 hitting coaches thing? how does having an extra coach equate to more progress/improvement?

Because it's still a bit unusual and may in fact help in these kinds of situations where more scrutiny might help the player(s).

(02-04-2013 09:44 PM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  I'll skip over a couple pts and go to the one about the ballpark. Frankly, I don't understand how you can pretend that Turner Field doesn't completely repress hitting. Per game, there were .873 HR hit, which made it the 9th toughest park to hit one out. You really have to muscle up to get it out. That being said, I didn't realize tropicana field was statistically tougher for HR, although I imagine part of that was due to the Rays' complete lack of power as well as the injury to Longoria.

Didn't know that about Troipicana either. My impression of our field in Atlanta might be skewed from growing up watching the Braves at the original launching pad across the street (Atlanta-Fulton County Stadium was torn down after the Olympics.)

(02-04-2013 09:56 PM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  I'm not referring to the volume with which the media talks about the Braves, so much as the reverence with which they're spoken about. This goes back to the 90's when the Braves would consistently do nothing with some of the greatest rotations of all time. Evidence of this absurd bias can be found in a recent ESPN article talking about how the braves now have three 5-tool outfielders. Do people not realize that "hitting" is one of the tools? BJ hasn't hit above .246 since 2008. Justin is a career .278 hitter and hit a lousy 26 road HR in the past 3 seasons combined. But in typical sports media fashion, everything the Braves touch will turn to gold, doesn't matter that they've come up short in basically every year since Sid Bream.

Hitting. If the Braves didn't get that homerun from David Justice in 1995, they would have been o-for their WS appearances. And they came up short in the Sid Bream (Slide, Sid, Slide!) year as well. I was there. The Braves are lauded for their pitching in spite of their poor hitting because some of us like pitching more, kind of like the Dodgers were lauded for their great organizational development of pitchers in the 70's and 80s and they kept coming up short as well. Some of us just like 1-0 and 2-1 games a lot more than 9-8 or 15-12 games in baseball. I find the lower scoring games much more tense and engaging than homerfests. Just personal preference. And the Braves have had success in turning around players a bit more so than the average franchise, so maybe their repuataion is somewhat deserved? Even Ugglee( Uggla) has a crappy average, but is much better in his OBP.

Remember, the Braves are mid-market and Giants are Big market. You're supposed to win more than we do and be better more often, have better players, facilities, etc.... The Braves are exactly mid-market so I'm pleased with what we've been able to do for the options and price we're at. They're not perfect, but I'm certainly happier with them now than in the late 70's and 80s.

(02-04-2013 09:56 PM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  And if we want to include the Giants in this discussion, let's mention how they're constantly ranked lower than the Braves, yet have won 2 of the past 3 world series and have been to 3 in the last decade. Yet Braves players are automatically going to improve year after year. It's really incredible how often the Braves are blown by the media.

Man, I think you'd be satisfied that ya'll were world champs twice in 3 years and not complain as much! Isn't it better to be considered a bit lower and just prove it on the field as the Giants have recently done? Don't worry, be happy! And I see lots of stories touting the Giants and how good they've been, and also how good they're set up to be. Your glass is half-full, so enjoy!

(02-04-2013 09:56 PM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  As for Moneyball, come on man! That movie was not only boring, btu so biased and inaccurate. For one, they spent half the freakin movie, lauding the acquisition of Chad Bradford, but what most people don't realize is that Bradford was with the A's for all of 2001, a year before the A's supposedly adopted the Moneyball philosophy. The movie also skates over the fact that their first "moneyball" draft basically produced a pile of crap. They also fail to mention that the Twins, who beat them to advance to the ALCS, had a similarly meager payroll with which to work. The movie made it seem as if the A's went up against some kind of spendthrift juggernaut, when in reality it was the pauper-like Twins

I'm a Michael Lewis fan, having read Liar's Poker in college, so I enjoy his stuff. I enjoyed the movie thoroughly, didn't sweat that they took some artistic license to make the story flow better on film (it was never stated to be a documnetary) and enjoyed the cinematography (that 70's era feel with the low lighting was brilliant compared to all the computer gereated digital junk of today's recent filmmaking), the actors (liked what Brad Pitt did as well as the supporting cast), even liked the daughter's song which I heard on the radio again this morning.

I look at baseball as by far the most romantic sport, so don't rain on my parade, okay?! A baseball movie, even "The Slugger's Wife" (and that was a bad baseball movie) has an inherent appeal to me.

As much as pro football and pro basketball bore me to tears these days,(didn't even watch the super bowl again this year and didn't miss it) baseball is just that much more enjoyable for me. You are free to differ, but you have plenty to celebrate with in San Francisco.

I think it's going to be another great year--even if my team loses out again in the one game playoff. Evenm though we lost to the Cards in somewhat painful fashion, it was still an enjoyable game from a baseball fan's perspective. It had drama (Medlin and Chipper and Lohse),. some uncharacteristic miscues (Chipper's error and the "outfield fly ruling by the umps that we'll talk about for a long time here), good play by the cards and the riveting finality of the first one game wild card game. I think Cards fans would agree.

Hey, I enjoy following and reading about all the Cubs have been and are doing, even though I don't live there. I think Theo & co will eventually get them over the hump like they did the Red Sox, and that's exciting. About the only team I'm never jazzed about is the Yankees, and even then, I respect what they've done. Like the saying goes: location, location, location.

LOL sorry, I had to respond to the last comment first. You really think that idiot Epstein will get the Cubs over the top? He was the one who left the Sox in disarray with the contracts he gave to Lackey, Crawford, Beckett, Daisuke and Gonzalez, as well as trading Lowrie for Melancon. I'll give Epstein his due for the great moves he made before 2009, but it's basically been downhill since. And now he's restarted the trend in Chicago with the absurd contract to Edwin Jackson, whose ERA this year will probably jump to nearly 4.50.

Also, how can you hate on basketball? Baseball will always be the sport I learned about first, but NBA is definitely more fun to watch on a nightly basis. Football I'll agree with you on