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Tulsa likely to Big East
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Lord2FLI Away
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Post: #61
RE: Tulsa likely to Big East
(01-20-2013 06:39 PM)ScreamShatter Wrote:  
(01-20-2013 06:32 PM)Lord2FLI Wrote:  
(01-20-2013 06:28 PM)ScreamShatter Wrote:  Let me point out one more school to compare against Tulsa:

Villanova University:
Students 10,482
Undergraduates 6,394
Postgraduates 3,200

Villanova is twice the size of Tulsa, and people on this board ripped the plan of them adding a football team because of their turnout would be low and they just didn't have the financial tools to take their sports to the level that most of our schools are able to do.

Yet again -- i'm not ripping Tulsa. I'm just pointing out the facts. And wondering where the value is and how are they going to benefit this league LONG TERM without the school size and region to support our needs as a conference.

Tulsa more than held their own while competing against six other schools in the nBe, to me, adding them is more about competitive balance than anything.

And you expect those six schools in the nBE to stay at the same level? Because I expect all of us to follow the blueprint of UL and UC. And as we improve, what kind of competitive balance can a small school with no fan base in a small region provide us? They add NO VALUE over the long run to this conference.

And yet, they've managed to do it anyway, take a look at their endowment, they have the money.
01-20-2013 06:42 PM
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TigerTimmy Offline
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Post: #62
RE: Tulsa likely to Big East
Tulsa is next to get invited. They are the best available. The BE needs to get Tulsa before the MWC does.

Tulsa gives the BE 12 FB teams in 2015 if Navy stays in.

If the BE expands or loses schools the next choices are:

Southern Miss
UMASS
Army

No to UNCC, ODU, UTSA.
01-20-2013 06:44 PM
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BigHouston Offline
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Post: #63
RE: Tulsa likely to Big East
(01-20-2013 02:38 PM)ScreamShatter Wrote:  
(01-20-2013 02:25 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(01-20-2013 02:18 PM)CollegeCard Wrote:  My school is not involved with this voting but I can't imagine adding Tulsa creates enough additional revenue to give existing schools more money in the end game then they would get with 10.

Tulsa is not so much about adding revenue over 10 schools. It's about adding a CCG game when we get to 11 with Navy. Between the Tulsa market and the value of the CCG game, I suspect the Tulsa addition will be close to revenue neutral. Navy is revenue positive. So, adding both should increase revenue to each school a bit. It's certainly not going to cut revenue to any significant degree.

In my opinion dogging Tulsa and then pimping schools like UMass (that is NOT in the Boston DMA) and Charolette that hasn't even played a down of football is laughable. Don't get me wrong, both schools may develop, but there will be plenty of time to add said schools in the future if they pan out. No reason to blindly gamble on thier future prospects at this point in time.

I don't see how you can think adding Tulsa would be revenue neutral. They don't add a market comparable to Houston, New Orleans, Philadelphia, Orlando, Cincinnati, Memphis, Dallas, etc. They also have a much smaller school size than the rest of us -- which means smaller alumni base for support. They will not help the exisiting nBE sale more tickets to games, in general. Just knowing those basic facts, I don't think it's possible to see how they add or retain value to the TV contract.

Attackcoog, ScreamShatter makes good valid points... I too believe the Big East should remain at 10... unless of course TV folks want/say otherwise $$$.
01-20-2013 06:45 PM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #64
RE: Tulsa likely to Big East
(01-20-2013 06:23 PM)ScreamShatter Wrote:  These comments are funny. Tulsa is a decent school, but no one has been able to justify why they would ADD VALUE to our TV deal.

University of Tulsa:
Students 4,352
Undergraduates 3,174
Postgraduates 1,178
Region Population 946,962

Let's compare that to a few random nBE members.

University of Houston:
Students 40,747
Undergraduates 31,367
Postgraduates 9,380
Region Population 6,086,538

UCF:
Students 59,767
Undergraduates 50,968
Postgraduates 8,522
Region Population 2,171,360

Tulane:
Students 13,359
Undergraduates 8,338
Postgraduates 5,021
Region Population 1,191,089

Tulsa is half the size of our smallest school and has a metro of 300,000 less than that school. Let's look at some schools we've mentioned as expansion schools:

UNCC:
Students 25,277
Undergraduates 20,283
Postgraduates 4,994
Region Population 1,795,472

UMass:
Students 68,315 (in system)
Amherst 21,370
Region Population 4,591,112


In no way am I saying Tulsa is a bad school, but I'm pointing out that they don't have the fan base, school size, or region that is as large as current schools and the potential schools. I just don't see the VALUE that they bring to the TV deal.

2012 Avg Attendance

Tulsa- 20,020
UMass- 10,901
Charlotte- 0

Do we really want make this about fan base size? Bottom line, Tulsa has no professional sports. Tulsa does have some potential to be much more successful within thier market. Even as it stands now, they seem to be a better choice than the two that are being suggested. Plus they have an established sports program performing at a fairly high level given the resources. Given a better conference affiliation, more exposure, a bit more money, and a more effective marketing effort on thier part, there is some room for significant improvement in attendance and fan base size. They are in a metro area of about a million and have no major league sports competition, no reason they cant get to the 30-40K mark in attendance. Like I said before, I dont mind UMass as a basketball only addition. But thier football is among the worst performing and least supported programs in all of FBS football. We dont need that.
(This post was last modified: 01-20-2013 06:55 PM by Attackcoog.)
01-20-2013 06:47 PM
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ScreamShatter Offline
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Post: #65
RE: Tulsa likely to Big East
(01-20-2013 06:42 PM)Lord2FLI Wrote:  
(01-20-2013 06:39 PM)ScreamShatter Wrote:  
(01-20-2013 06:32 PM)Lord2FLI Wrote:  
(01-20-2013 06:28 PM)ScreamShatter Wrote:  Let me point out one more school to compare against Tulsa:

Villanova University:
Students 10,482
Undergraduates 6,394
Postgraduates 3,200

Villanova is twice the size of Tulsa, and people on this board ripped the plan of them adding a football team because of their turnout would be low and they just didn't have the financial tools to take their sports to the level that most of our schools are able to do.

Yet again -- i'm not ripping Tulsa. I'm just pointing out the facts. And wondering where the value is and how are they going to benefit this league LONG TERM without the school size and region to support our needs as a conference.

Tulsa more than held their own while competing against six other schools in the nBe, to me, adding them is more about competitive balance than anything.

And you expect those six schools in the nBE to stay at the same level? Because I expect all of us to follow the blueprint of UL and UC. And as we improve, what kind of competitive balance can a small school with no fan base in a small region provide us? They add NO VALUE over the long run to this conference.

And yet, they've managed to do it anyway, take a look at their endowment, they have the money.

Villanova has a decent endowment and still struggled to meet the demands that the Big East required before letting them upgrade. And even with an endowment, Tulsa isn't going to be able to increase their fan base or the fact that their region would be one of the smallest in the league.

They did very well in the CUSA. But we aren't the CUSA. We are the Big East, and our goal is to rebuild back to the level where we were or better. Tulsa doesn't help with that, and they don't add value to the TV package. Period. It's math.
01-20-2013 06:49 PM
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ScreamShatter Offline
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Post: #66
RE: Tulsa likely to Big East
(01-20-2013 06:47 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(01-20-2013 06:23 PM)ScreamShatter Wrote:  These comments are funny. Tulsa is a decent school, but no one has been able to justify why they would ADD VALUE to our TV deal.

University of Tulsa:
Students 4,352
Undergraduates 3,174
Postgraduates 1,178
Region Population 946,962

Let's compare that to a few random nBE members.

University of Houston:
Students 40,747
Undergraduates 31,367
Postgraduates 9,380
Region Population 6,086,538

UCF:
Students 59,767
Undergraduates 50,968
Postgraduates 8,522
Region Population 2,171,360

Tulane:
Students 13,359
Undergraduates 8,338
Postgraduates 5,021
Region Population 1,191,089

Tulsa is half the size of our smallest school and has a metro of 300,000 less than that school. Let's look at some schools we've mentioned as expansion schools:

UNCC:
Students 25,277
Undergraduates 20,283
Postgraduates 4,994
Region Population 1,795,472

UMass:
Students 68,315 (in system)
Amherst 21,370
Region Population 4,591,112


In no way am I saying Tulsa is a bad school, but I'm pointing out that they don't have the fan base, school size, or region that is as large as current schools and the potential schools. I just don't see the VALUE that they bring to the TV deal.

2012 Avg Attendance

Tulsa- 20,020
UMass- 10,901
Charlotte- 0

Do we really want make this about fan base size? Bottom line, Tulsa has no professional sports. Tulsa does have some potential to be much more successful within thier market. Even as it stands now, they seem to be a better choice than the two that are being suggested. Plus they have an established sports program performing at a fairly high level given the resources. Given a better conference affiliation, more exposure, a bit more money, and a effective marketing effot on thier part, there is some room for significant improvement in attendance and fan base size.

You're dreaming. UMass just recently upgraded its program and Charlotte is building. Even with marketing, Tulsa will never be able to increase their attendance to about 25,000. UMass and Charlotte could do that in the future.
01-20-2013 06:53 PM
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Lord2FLI Away
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Post: #67
RE: Tulsa likely to Big East
(01-20-2013 06:49 PM)ScreamShatter Wrote:  
(01-20-2013 06:42 PM)Lord2FLI Wrote:  
(01-20-2013 06:39 PM)ScreamShatter Wrote:  
(01-20-2013 06:32 PM)Lord2FLI Wrote:  
(01-20-2013 06:28 PM)ScreamShatter Wrote:  Let me point out one more school to compare against Tulsa:

Villanova University:
Students 10,482
Undergraduates 6,394
Postgraduates 3,200

Villanova is twice the size of Tulsa, and people on this board ripped the plan of them adding a football team because of their turnout would be low and they just didn't have the financial tools to take their sports to the level that most of our schools are able to do.

Yet again -- i'm not ripping Tulsa. I'm just pointing out the facts. And wondering where the value is and how are they going to benefit this league LONG TERM without the school size and region to support our needs as a conference.

Tulsa more than held their own while competing against six other schools in the nBe, to me, adding them is more about competitive balance than anything.

And you expect those six schools in the nBE to stay at the same level? Because I expect all of us to follow the blueprint of UL and UC. And as we improve, what kind of competitive balance can a small school with no fan base in a small region provide us? They add NO VALUE over the long run to this conference.

And yet, they've managed to do it anyway, take a look at their endowment, they have the money.

Villanova has a decent endowment and still struggled to meet the demands that the Big East required before letting them upgrade. And even with an endowment, Tulsa isn't going to be able to increase their fan base or the fact that their region would be one of the smallest in the league.

They did very well in the CUSA. But we aren't the CUSA. We are the Big East, and our goal is to rebuild back to the level where we were or better. Tulsa doesn't help with that, and they don't add value to the TV package. Period. It's math.

That remains to be seen, it's not fact, it's not period, it's not even math. And, for the record, if the amount of fans that showed up to games mattered then Temple would still be in the MAC. Also, for the record, I'm done discussing it, this being the internet, there is no point in debating, because no minds will be changed.
(This post was last modified: 01-20-2013 06:59 PM by Lord2FLI.)
01-20-2013 06:55 PM
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panicstricken Offline
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Post: #68
RE: Tulsa likely to Big East
At Tulsa we just win conference titles, win our bowl games and we dont let in dumbs.

I guess we should be ashamed of that.
01-20-2013 06:56 PM
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Post: #69
RE: Tulsa likely to Big East
(01-20-2013 06:49 PM)ScreamShatter Wrote:  
(01-20-2013 06:42 PM)Lord2FLI Wrote:  
(01-20-2013 06:39 PM)ScreamShatter Wrote:  
(01-20-2013 06:32 PM)Lord2FLI Wrote:  
(01-20-2013 06:28 PM)ScreamShatter Wrote:  Let me point out one more school to compare against Tulsa:

Villanova University:
Students 10,482
Undergraduates 6,394
Postgraduates 3,200

Villanova is twice the size of Tulsa, and people on this board ripped the plan of them adding a football team because of their turnout would be low and they just didn't have the financial tools to take their sports to the level that most of our schools are able to do.

Yet again -- i'm not ripping Tulsa. I'm just pointing out the facts. And wondering where the value is and how are they going to benefit this league LONG TERM without the school size and region to support our needs as a conference.

Tulsa more than held their own while competing against six other schools in the nBe, to me, adding them is more about competitive balance than anything.

And you expect those six schools in the nBE to stay at the same level? Because I expect all of us to follow the blueprint of UL and UC. And as we improve, what kind of competitive balance can a small school with no fan base in a small region provide us? They add NO VALUE over the long run to this conference.

And yet, they've managed to do it anyway, take a look at their endowment, they have the money.

Villanova has a decent endowment and still struggled to meet the demands that the Big East required before letting them upgrade. And even with an endowment, Tulsa isn't going to be able to increase their fan base or the fact that their region would be one of the smallest in the league.

They did very well in the CUSA. But we aren't the CUSA. We are the Big East, and our goal is to rebuild back to the level where we were or better. Tulsa doesn't help with that, and they don't add value to the TV package. Period. It's math.

I've got to agree with Lord2Fli on this. Money/TV revenue is only one part of the equation. A conference that can yield teams that can consistently compete against the Cartel is equally as important especially with an Access Bowl and 20-40 million on the line. Tulsa is one of the those schools (like a few others) that have been able to athletically achieve more with less for years.
01-20-2013 06:57 PM
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ScreamShatter Offline
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Post: #70
RE: Tulsa likely to Big East
(01-20-2013 06:44 PM)TigerTimmy Wrote:  Tulsa is next to get invited. They are the best available. The BE needs to get Tulsa before the MWC does.

Tulsa gives the BE 12 FB teams in 2015 if Navy stays in.

If the BE expands or loses schools the next choices are:

Southern Miss
UMASS
Army

No to UNCC, ODU, UTSA.

I have no doubts that Tulsa is next to be invited because we have bad managers running this conference. Simple numbers show they aren't worth it. The same is true with Southern Miss. They add no value to a TV deal.

Army, while not having a wonderful team, pulls ratings and has attendance and a very active alumni base. UMass has potential and sits in one of the largest metros that we aren't in. UNCC is another market and a school with potential -- they are light years better of a choice than Southern Miss.
01-20-2013 06:59 PM
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ScreamShatter Offline
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Post: #71
RE: Tulsa likely to Big East
(01-20-2013 06:56 PM)panicstricken Wrote:  At Tulsa we just win conference titles, win our bowl games and we dont let in dumbs.

I guess we should be ashamed of that.

You can do all that, but still doesn't make you profitable for the Big East.
01-20-2013 07:00 PM
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Post: #72
RE: Tulsa likely to Big East
(01-20-2013 06:56 PM)panicstricken Wrote:  At Tulsa we just win conference titles, win our bowl games and we dont let in dumbs.

I guess we should be ashamed of that.

At the Big East headquarters we just make horrible expansionary decisions and we do let in dumbs.

I guess that means Tulsa is going to get in, and I am ashamed...
01-20-2013 07:02 PM
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ScreamShatter Offline
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Post: #73
RE: Tulsa likely to Big East
(01-20-2013 06:57 PM)ECUPirated Wrote:  
(01-20-2013 06:49 PM)ScreamShatter Wrote:  
(01-20-2013 06:42 PM)Lord2FLI Wrote:  
(01-20-2013 06:39 PM)ScreamShatter Wrote:  
(01-20-2013 06:32 PM)Lord2FLI Wrote:  Tulsa more than held their own while competing against six other schools in the nBe, to me, adding them is more about competitive balance than anything.

And you expect those six schools in the nBE to stay at the same level? Because I expect all of us to follow the blueprint of UL and UC. And as we improve, what kind of competitive balance can a small school with no fan base in a small region provide us? They add NO VALUE over the long run to this conference.

And yet, they've managed to do it anyway, take a look at their endowment, they have the money.

Villanova has a decent endowment and still struggled to meet the demands that the Big East required before letting them upgrade. And even with an endowment, Tulsa isn't going to be able to increase their fan base or the fact that their region would be one of the smallest in the league.

They did very well in the CUSA. But we aren't the CUSA. We are the Big East, and our goal is to rebuild back to the level where we were or better. Tulsa doesn't help with that, and they don't add value to the TV package. Period. It's math.

I've got to agree with Lord2Fli on this. Money/TV revenue is only one part of the equation. A conference that can yield teams that can consistently compete against the Cartel is equally as important especially with an Access Bowl and 20-40 million on the line. Tulsa is one of the those schools (like a few others) that have been able to athletically achieve more with less for years.

They are able to achieve bowl invites by competing against some pretty weak CUSA teams. In the long run, they won't be able to do that in the Big East. And then they'll just become a drag on us financially.
01-20-2013 07:03 PM
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Post: #74
RE: Tulsa likely to Big East
(01-20-2013 06:28 PM)ScreamShatter Wrote:  Let me point out one more school to compare against Tulsa:

Villanova University:
Students 10,482
Undergraduates 6,394
Postgraduates 3,200

Villanova is twice the size of Tulsa, and people on this board ripped the plan of them adding a football team because of their turnout would be low and they just didn't have the financial tools to take their sports to the level that most of our schools are able to do.

No, the people who ripped the idea of adding Villanova are long gone to the ACC, Big 12 and maybe Big 10 boards.

If Temple didn't exist, people would be talking about Villanova as a possibility alongside UMass, Charlotte, ODU, UTSA etc.

Quote:Yet again -- i'm not ripping Tulsa. I'm just pointing out the facts. And wondering where the value is and how are they going to benefit this league LONG TERM without the school size and region to support our needs as a conference.

I don't know that you're wrong. I just wanted to point out that the people you're trying to have this argument with are gone.
01-20-2013 07:04 PM
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ScreamShatter Offline
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Post: #75
RE: Tulsa likely to Big East
(01-20-2013 07:02 PM)Bearcat_Bounce Wrote:  
(01-20-2013 06:56 PM)panicstricken Wrote:  At Tulsa we just win conference titles, win our bowl games and we dont let in dumbs.

I guess we should be ashamed of that.

At the Big East headquarters we just make horrible expansionary decisions and we do let in dumbs.

I guess that means Tulsa is going to get in, and I am ashamed...

Amen.
01-20-2013 07:04 PM
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ScreamShatter Offline
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RE: Tulsa likely to Big East
(01-20-2013 07:04 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(01-20-2013 06:28 PM)ScreamShatter Wrote:  Let me point out one more school to compare against Tulsa:

Villanova University:
Students 10,482
Undergraduates 6,394
Postgraduates 3,200

Villanova is twice the size of Tulsa, and people on this board ripped the plan of them adding a football team because of their turnout would be low and they just didn't have the financial tools to take their sports to the level that most of our schools are able to do.

No, the people who ripped the idea of adding Villanova are long gone to the ACC, Big 12 and maybe Big 10 boards.

If Temple didn't exist, people would be talking about Villanova as a possibility alongside UMass, Charlotte, ODU, UTSA etc.

Quote:Yet again -- i'm not ripping Tulsa. I'm just pointing out the facts. And wondering where the value is and how are they going to benefit this league LONG TERM without the school size and region to support our needs as a conference.

I don't know that you're wrong. I just wanted to point out that the people you're trying to have this argument with are gone.

Yea -- I'm more so just trying to make a comparison for all these new CUSA schools who think expansion is just a code word for adding former rivals that don't add value to the league overall.

There's a reason why the Villanova idea was opposed by schools who went on to greener fields. And we need to realize, we can't increase our value by adding schools that don't help with that mission over the long run.
01-20-2013 07:08 PM
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Kronke Offline
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Post: #77
RE: Tulsa likely to Big East
Anyone that has a problem with an addition of Tulsa, go play them in football and get your ass beat. There isn't a school in the nBE that TU can't hang with.
01-20-2013 07:09 PM
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panicstricken Offline
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Post: #78
RE: Tulsa likely to Big East
(01-20-2013 07:02 PM)Bearcat_Bounce Wrote:  
(01-20-2013 06:56 PM)panicstricken Wrote:  At Tulsa we just win conference titles, win our bowl games and we dont let in dumbs.

I guess we should be ashamed of that.

At the Big East headquarters we just make horrible expansionary decisions and we do let in dumbs.

I guess that means Tulsa is going to get in, and I am ashamed...

Its gonna be fun to beat Cinncy like a drum in 2014.
01-20-2013 07:10 PM
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RE: Tulsa likely to Big East
(01-20-2013 07:03 PM)ScreamShatter Wrote:  
(01-20-2013 06:57 PM)ECUPirated Wrote:  
(01-20-2013 06:49 PM)ScreamShatter Wrote:  
(01-20-2013 06:42 PM)Lord2FLI Wrote:  
(01-20-2013 06:39 PM)ScreamShatter Wrote:  And you expect those six schools in the nBE to stay at the same level? Because I expect all of us to follow the blueprint of UL and UC. And as we improve, what kind of competitive balance can a small school with no fan base in a small region provide us? They add NO VALUE over the long run to this conference.

And yet, they've managed to do it anyway, take a look at their endowment, they have the money.

Villanova has a decent endowment and still struggled to meet the demands that the Big East required before letting them upgrade. And even with an endowment, Tulsa isn't going to be able to increase their fan base or the fact that their region would be one of the smallest in the league.

They did very well in the CUSA. But we aren't the CUSA. We are the Big East, and our goal is to rebuild back to the level where we were or better. Tulsa doesn't help with that, and they don't add value to the TV package. Period. It's math.

I've got to agree with Lord2Fli on this. Money/TV revenue is only one part of the equation. A conference that can yield teams that can consistently compete against the Cartel is equally as important especially with an Access Bowl and 20-40 million on the line. Tulsa is one of the those schools (like a few others) that have been able to athletically achieve more with less for years.

They are able to achieve bowl invites by competing against some pretty weak CUSA teams. In the long run, they won't be able to do that in the Big East. And then they'll just become a drag on us financially.

Now does that statement really validate / make sense with the point you're trying to make? Several of those "weak" teams as you are calling them are headed to the nBE. How could they "NOT" do the same thing in the nBE?
01-20-2013 07:10 PM
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panicstricken Offline
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RE: Tulsa likely to Big East
Tulsa was 4-1 against the nBE this year.

I cant explain what happened in Dallas. Its the Ford curse.
01-20-2013 07:14 PM
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