(03-31-2013 10:35 PM)WakeForestRanger Wrote:  Wake traditionally votes with Duke and UNC on most issues if they had done that in 2003 there would have been no expansion. Wake was the swing vote because everyone else except for UVa because of VT voted the way they were expected to vote.

Duke and UNC opposed expansion because it would end the double round robin in basketball.

"In June 2003, Fox played a role in the expansion of the Atlantic Coast Conference. Reached in Switzerland at a conference, she cast an unexpected and deciding "no" vote against Boston College in the first round of Atlantic Coast Conference expansion.[5] Her unanticipated vote at the 11th hour resulted in months of turmoil in college sports. Miami President Donna Shalala delayed her university's acceptance of the ACC invitation to the last possible day explaining "We had numbers on Boston College-Virginia Tech. We had done numbers on Miami alone. But we had not anticipated that Virginia Tech and Miami would be the only two invitees."[6] The ensuing delay forced the ACC to spend the 2004-5 academic year as an 11-team conference, one shy of the dozen required by the NCAA for the ACC to hold a lucrative championship football game, and resulted in Boston College playing a "lame duck" year in the Big East.[7] Media reports suggested Chancellor Fox, a University of Notre Dame trustee, may have cast her vote against Boston College to provide time for the ACC to consider extending membership to the Fighting Irish.[8]"

There was no vote on BC in June of 2003. That is an error that has crept in over time as well as the error about Miami being voted in first.

From the actual articles of that time President Moeser and President Keohane were quoted as saying right afterward, "Who stops at 11?" In other words they were surprised that since their Miami only proposal to 10 was voted down first that night, why didn't they just go to 12? In other words, there was no vote on either BC or SU or they'd have mentioned it as proof positive that even the others weren't sure they wanted to go to 12, not just them.

There was a reason why there was no vote on either BC or SU that night. The reason was because going into that meeting the presidents had a plan whereby they had hoped to trap Keohane into relenting so that the original plan of Miami, BC, and SU could take place.

The presidents knew that VT had to be voted on first in order to get Virginia on board for Miami. So as the yes votes for VT mounted, it came down to Fox, Keohane, and Moeser. When it came time to vote, Fox told Keohane that she would vote yes to VT unless Nan relented and went along with the original expansion to 12. The hope was that Duke would relent rather than see VT join the league. But Nan Keohane didn't relent so Fox voted yes to VT with UNC and Duke voting no. Then the Miami vote was made, with Virginia now freed up to vote for Miami to get them the needed number of votes.

Since the presidents for expansion to 12 had no idea how their plan would work out, they tabled expansion altogether to get their acts together. They needed a break from it considering the sh!&storm that expansion caused in the media. GT president Clough, said right after the meeting that he believed the majority of the presidents still favored expansion to 12.

This stall was about "vision". The original vision of an ACC being meaningful to the entire East Coast versus the now SEC-lite vision. They basically chose SEC-lite and knew they were boxed in. As I mentioned in the previous posts, the ACC continued their on-going discussions with ND, but they knew there was no way the Irish would join an entirely southern conference. If ND wanted to box themselves in, they'd could do that in the Big Ten.

As for SEC-lite, unfortunately, there was no "southern" team they could reasonably get, so eventually they had to come back to BC which by this point was basically an outcast in the Big East.

Cheers,
Neil

The ACC had been after ND to join since the days that former ND AD Gene Corrigan was conference commissioner.

If Wake were not in the ACC, I see them going the way of William & Mary.

(04-01-2013 08:59 AM)AtlanticLeague Wrote:  If Wake were not in the ACC, I see them going the way of William & Mary.

Fascinating insight.

"The Atlantic Coast Conference has re-opened exploratory conversations with the Irish to see if there is a scenario that is acceptable to both sides that would allow the school to become the conference's 12th team."

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2003...-acc-games

All this talk reminds me of how everyone said Duke and Carolina were always against expansion. in 2003 yes, but the last 4 additions not true, Syracuse and Louisville were pushed HEAVILY by both but especially Duke. Pitt was brought up by MD and a couple other institutions when WVU was brought up as well. It can be said Duke and Carolina were the deciders that killed WVU chances. Wake and Clemson played the biggest roles in getting ND, when discussions first arose, the premise was 3 games a year and an opening game in charlotte once every 3 years. Working with wake and Clemson we now have the deal we have with ND.

The OP seemed like an attempt to flame / troll whatever word you wish to use... nothing more. I am looking forward to our games against Wake much more than any of the Big East schools that we left behind. I am really a fan of all the schools in our new conference.

I designed an advanced computer simulation of what the world would look like today if Wake Forest was not an original member of the ACC.

I hope it clarifies any questions that any posters might have.

Here is the youtube video of my results:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cta8KBPAjE

(04-01-2013 09:21 AM)WakeForestRanger Wrote:  "The Atlantic Coast Conference has re-opened exploratory conversations with the Irish to see if there is a scenario that is acceptable to both sides that would allow the school to become the conference's 12th team."

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2003...-acc-games

That was well after the first exploratory stage that was taking place from late May through the middle of September. ND basically said no then and the ACC tried to re-open those talks but the die had been cast. Within three days of this article, both ND and ACC said the talks were done.

Only a handful of the articles about expansion back then are still available on line. But one can go and review the conference realignment threads/posts over on CollegeSportsInfo.com with what were the actual article links (though the article links no longer work).

The first article to mention ND reaching out to the ACC was posted back on May 30, 2003. Another reared its head in June, and still another in July, but neither had much information in it just mostly speculation.

Then around September 12, the rumor was that ND said no. Shalala went to the September 20, 2003 Miami-Eagles game to gauge BC's interest. September 25 articles appeared like the above about renewed talks and then on Sunday September 28 the ACC made a public announcement that there would be no partial members and ND made a public statement that negotiations with the ACC had ended.

Cheers,
Neil

In a nutshell, 2003 realignment went like this.

1. Swofford presents plan to add Miami, BC and Syracuse to capture tv markets, add a championship game and to get a 2nd BCS game.
2. UNC and Duke oppose any expansion because it meant the end of the double round robin in basketball.
3. Virginia governor uses UVa to halt any expansion unless it includes VT.
4. All schools except UNC and Duke reluctantly agree. VT and Miami (the prize of this expansion) are approved.
5. NC State's Mary Ann Fox lets it be known that she will vote with UNC and Duke to block 12th member unless a serious run is made at Notre Dame.
6. ACC and Notre Dame negotiate, but ND refuses to join as full member and ACC refuses to budge on partial membership.
7. BC is approved as 12th member because of tv market, Miami's preference and the public hesitation of some Syracuse officials.
8. Notre Dame is approached as 13th member in November, but once again the Irish refuse to join in full.

"Once again, the rumors are swirling that Notre Dame may join the Atlantic Coast Conference.

The Irish have made serious overtures about joining the ACC, two officials within the conference with knowlege of the moves told USA Today in Thursday's editions.

Notre Dame is a member of the Big East in most sports, including basketball -- but the football team has been independent for more than a century. A move to the ACC would certainly change all that."

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=1660664

(04-01-2013 07:08 PM)WakeForestRanger Wrote:  In a nutshell, 2003 realignment went like this.

1. Swofford presents plan to add Miami, BC and Syracuse to capture tv markets, add a championship game and to get a 2nd BCS game.
2. UNC and Duke oppose any expansion because it meant the end of the double round robin in basketball.
3. Virginia governor uses UVa to halt any expansion unless it includes VT.
4. All schools except UNC and Duke reluctantly agree. VT and Miami (the prize of this expansion) are approved.
5. NC State's Mary Ann Fox lets it be known that she will vote with UNC and Duke to block 12th member unless a serious run is made at Notre Dame.
6. ACC and Notre Dame negotiate, but ND refuses to join as full member and ACC refuses to budge on partial membership.
7. BC is approved as 12th member because of tv market, Miami's preference and the public hesitation of some Syracuse officials.
8. Notre Dame is approached as 13th member in November, but once again the Irish refuse to join in full.

Pitt should've been the 12th instead of BC. I remember the past time Pitt played at BC and we knew that BC was leaving, Pittsburgh TV stations had to send camera crews up there to get game highlights for the news because no Boston TV stations were even covering the game for news highlights. Talk about apathy from your own market?

(04-01-2013 07:08 PM)WakeForestRanger Wrote:  In a nutshell, 2003 realignment went like this.

1. Swofford presents plan to add Miami, BC and Syracuse to capture tv markets, add a championship game and to get a 2nd BCS game.
2. UNC and Duke oppose any expansion because it meant the end of the double round robin in basketball.
3. Virginia governor uses UVa to halt any expansion unless it includes VT.
4. All schools except UNC and Duke reluctantly agree. VT and Miami (the prize of this expansion) are approved.
5. NC State's Mary Ann Fox lets it be known that she will vote with UNC and Duke to block 12th member unless a serious run is made at Notre Dame.
6. ACC and Notre Dame negotiate, but ND refuses to join as full member and ACC refuses to budge on partial membership.
7. BC is approved as 12th member because of tv market, Miami's preference and the public hesitation of some Syracuse officials.
8. Notre Dame is approached as 13th member in November, but once again the Irish refuse to join in full.

Well, you're getting warmer with point #8.

As for points #5 and #6, it appears that you believe the ACC and ND started these serious negotiations on September 25 and then they abruptly ended on September 28. How serious do you think they could have been in such a short period of time. Miami was wooed for almost two years before finally agreeing.

Again, the run for Notre Dame was already on by the end of May 2003 while the ACC was attempting to get Miami, BC, and SU in and prior to VT becoming a necessity.

That run with ND was all about partial membership for 7 years with a commitment for full membership then as #13 with #14 being either PSU or Pitt. Once VT took one of those envisioned slots of 10,11,12,13, and 14 everything changed.

Fox, as one of like 100 BOT members of ND, was not stupid enough to believe that the Irish would join the ACC fully as #12 (as you want us to believe) in what was basically an entirely southern conference at the point in time you are referencing (VT and Miami voted in). So the ACC needed time to discover what additions ND would be comfortable with as 12 and before it joined fully as 13, who they would want as 14.

If you can't understand this fundamental point about ND never, ever joining a fully southern conference as a full member, then this conversation is even more pointless now then when it began.

Also, please note, that even though BC accepted as #12, the ACC continued to pursue ND, which even though not stated, included the same deal they were attempting to navigate from late May through mid-September, one that had partial membership and a scheduling commitment from ND's side and a commitment for full membership 7 years down the road on the ACC's side.

Btw, here is a link to one of many key data elements the consultants used in coming up with some of the different scenarios -

http://m.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Journal...-POLL.aspx

For the vision of an ACC that controlled the Eastern Seaboard of the country focus on the New England, Mid-Atlantic, and South Atlantic Regions and tell us which 5 schools in addition to the 9 the ACC already had you think would best accomplish this vision?

And knowing ND's reluctance to join their football to any conference, which three Big East teams do you think would be best to expand to 12 (to stabilize at 12, as both Yow and Clough were quoted as saying back in end of May early June while the site visits were taking place) to let ND know they were serious about that vision in order to entice ND to agree with partial membership with an eventual commitment to full membership 7 years down the road?

Information is power. But critical thinking skills to understand the wealth of information out there is crucial as well.

Anyway, I'm done with the back and forth at this point.

Peace,
Neil

I agree with Neil, for what it is worth. ND was never going to join in full a totally southern conference. The chances of that were below zero. The proof is that ND got what it wanted as far as a partial membership and that occurred after Northern schools like Pitt and Syracuse were added.

I think that the vision of an ACC dominated Eastern Seaboard would have been further advanced if the ACC had offered West Virginia, Rutgers and UConn, along with Pitt, Syracuse, Louisville and a partial with ND. Navy could have come in for football only to mirror ND.

That may have boxed out the Big Ten from the Northeast and given the ACC a strong 18 school conference.

Would that have caused ESPN to reopen the TV contract?

Either way, with the new additions, the old "Tobacco Road" dominated, Southern rooted ACC is a thing of the past, even if it survives The Dude and Conference Armageddon.

I never thought Notre Dame would join a "fully Southern conference" and they didn't. Doesn't mean the ACC didn't try to get them to do it.

(04-01-2013 10:26 PM)TerryD Wrote:  I agree with Neil, for what it is worth. ND was never going to join in full a totally southern conference. The chances of that were below zero. The proof is that ND got what it wanted as far as a partial membership and that occurred after Northern schools like Pitt and Syracuse were added.

I think that the vision of an ACC dominated Eastern Seaboard would have been further advanced if the ACC had offered West Virginia, Rutgers and UConn, along with Pitt, Syracuse, Louisville and a partial with ND. Navy could have come in for football only to mirror ND.

That may have boxed out the Big Ten from the Northeast and given the ACC a strong 18 school conference.

Would that have caused ESPN to reopen the TV contract?

Either way, with the new additions, the old "Tobacco Road" dominated, Southern rooted ACC is a thing of the past, even if it survives The Dude and Conference Armageddon.

So you did want us

(04-01-2013 10:43 PM)WakeForestRanger Wrote:  I never thought Notre Dame would join a "fully Southern conference" and they didn't. Doesn't mean the ACC didn't try to get them to do it.

Don't disagree with this sentiment. But John Swofford and the ACC presidents (other than maybe Wetherell) knew such a tactic was like Mike Tranghese asking ND to join the Big East for full membership, which he periodically did. In other words, no way it was happening.

My point continues to be that the serious discussions that were taking place back in May 2003 through September 2003 were all about what was actually a realistic possibility back then - ND to the ACC as a partial with a commitment for full membership 7 years down the road. It was these discussions that had El Kabong over on ND Nation announce that ND was about to join the ACC.

Cheers,
Neil

(04-01-2013 10:26 PM)TerryD Wrote:  I think that the vision of an ACC dominated Eastern Seaboard would have been further advanced if the ACC had offered West Virginia, Rutgers and UConn, along with Pitt, Syracuse, Louisville and a partial with ND. Navy could have come in for football only to mirror ND.

That may have boxed out the Big Ten from the Northeast and given the ACC a strong 18 school conference.

Would that have caused ESPN to reopen the TV contract?

Either way, with the new additions, the old "Tobacco Road" dominated, Southern rooted ACC is a thing of the past, even if it survives The Dude and Conference Armageddon.

I know there are plenty of scenarios out there that have 20 team mega-conferences, but how likely is that to occur?

And going back to 2003, I think the ultimate goal then of 14 teams would have had Miami, BC, SU, ND, and PSU. Then after some period of stabilization at 14, take Pitt and VT to get to 16 and stop. If PSU didn't come move Pitt up and then wait to see if either PSU changed their minds or if Rutgers developed.

But, as they say, the best laid plans.

In 2010, I firmly believe the rumor out of Indianapolis that the BiG's plan to 16 (after Nebraska as #12 looked solid) was ND, Rutgers, Maryland, and SU. ND threw the monkey wrench in that one as well.

Cheers,
Neil

(04-02-2013 06:37 AM)omniorange Wrote:  

(04-01-2013 10:26 PM)TerryD Wrote:  I think that the vision of an ACC dominated Eastern Seaboard would have been further advanced if the ACC had offered West Virginia, Rutgers and UConn, along with Pitt, Syracuse, Louisville and a partial with ND. Navy could have come in for football only to mirror ND.

That may have boxed out the Big Ten from the Northeast and given the ACC a strong 18 school conference.

Would that have caused ESPN to reopen the TV contract?

Either way, with the new additions, the old "Tobacco Road" dominated, Southern rooted ACC is a thing of the past, even if it survives The Dude and Conference Armageddon.

I know there are plenty of scenarios out there that have 20 team mega-conferences, but how likely is that to occur?

And going back to 2003, I think the ultimate goal then of 14 teams would have had Miami, BC, SU, ND, and PSU. Then after some period of stabilization at 14, take Pitt and VT to get to 16 and stop. If PSU didn't come move Pitt up and then wait to see if either PSU changed their minds or if Rutgers developed.

But, as they say, the best laid plans.

In 2010, I firmly believe the rumor out of Indianapolis that the BiG's plan to 16 (after Nebraska as #12 looked solid) was ND, Rutgers, Maryland, and SU. ND threw the monkey wrench in that one as well.

Cheers,
Neil

1) I hope not likely at all, but the Big Ten under Delany may be on the prowl.

2) Jim Delany is not a very big fan of ND (and visa versa).

3) I am a big fan of monkey wrenches thrown into best laid plans. It appeals to the anarchist, non-conformist, anti-social, loner in me. :)

(04-02-2013 06:37 AM)omniorange Wrote:  

(04-01-2013 10:26 PM)TerryD Wrote:  I think that the vision of an ACC dominated Eastern Seaboard would have been further advanced if the ACC had offered West Virginia, Rutgers and UConn, along with Pitt, Syracuse, Louisville and a partial with ND. Navy could have come in for football only to mirror ND.

That may have boxed out the Big Ten from the Northeast and given the ACC a strong 18 school conference.

Would that have caused ESPN to reopen the TV contract?

Either way, with the new additions, the old "Tobacco Road" dominated, Southern rooted ACC is a thing of the past, even if it survives The Dude and Conference Armageddon.

I know there are plenty of scenarios out there that have 20 team mega-conferences, but how likely is that to occur?

And going back to 2003, I think the ultimate goal then of 14 teams would have had Miami, BC, SU, ND, and PSU. Then after some period of stabilization at 14, take Pitt and VT to get to 16 and stop. If PSU didn't come move Pitt up and then wait to see if either PSU changed their minds or if Rutgers developed.

But, as they say, the best laid plans.

In 2010, I firmly believe the rumor out of Indianapolis that the BiG's plan to 16 (after Nebraska as #12 looked solid) was ND, Rutgers, Maryland, and SU. ND threw the monkey wrench in that one as well.

Cheers,
Neil

Those were the days..........