(11-18-2013 04:04 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(11-18-2013 03:52 PM)LSUtah Wrote:  Football drives the $$ bus and hybrid conferences do not work.

More like,

"Football drives the bus and G-5 conferences do not work." No G5 conference really is working right now. None are capable of keeping up with the P5. Anything they can do to maximize earnings and value has to be done---this includes the hybid concept.

The hybrid can work, it just has to be used sparingly and carefully. If used properly, it can boost the performance of a conference while minimizing the degree to which the media deal is split. If football drives the bus, then the hybid allows a conference to add good basketball without having to be stuck with an additonal bad football team. It simply gives a conference more economically viable expansion options.

Agree. Just because it failed in the BE doesn't mean it will fail again.

The BE was a unique situation because you had schools that historically only cared about basketball and added some schools with independent football programs. They formed a football league to get a piece of that BCS money. As the money grew, the direction league members wanted to go was split.

In the case of the AAC/CUSA/any other league exploring the hybrid concept is that only a handful of teams would be non-football members and they'd join knowing on the front end what they're getting into and that they're there to win basketball games and raise the basketball profile of the league.

Circumstances are much different than they used to be.

(11-18-2013 04:21 PM)Niner National Wrote:  

(11-18-2013 04:04 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(11-18-2013 03:52 PM)LSUtah Wrote:  Football drives the $$ bus and hybrid conferences do not work.

More like,

"Football drives the bus and G-5 conferences do not work." No G5 conference really is working right now. None are capable of keeping up with the P5. Anything they can do to maximize earnings and value has to be done---this includes the hybid concept.

The hybrid can work, it just has to be used sparingly and carefully. If used properly, it can boost the performance of a conference while minimizing the degree to which the media deal is split. If football drives the bus, then the hybid allows a conference to add good basketball without having to be stuck with an additonal bad football team. It simply gives a conference more economically viable expansion options.

Agree. Just because it failed in the BE doesn't mean it will fail again.

The BE was a unique situation because you had schools that historically only cared about basketball and added some schools with independent football programs. They formed a football league to get a piece of that BCS money. As the money grew, the direction league members wanted to go was split.

In the case of the AAC/CUSA/any other league exploring the hybrid concept is that only a handful of teams would be non-football members and they'd join knowing on the front end what they're getting into and that they're there to win basketball games and raise the basketball profile of the league.

Circumstances are much different than they used to be.

With regard to the Big East, your statements are not true. The Big East came into existence years before the BCS did, so it was NOT formed to get access to BCS money.

I might add that the league did not fail, given that it stayed together for 22 years.

(11-18-2013 03:52 PM)LSUtah Wrote:  Football drives the $$ bus and hybrid conferences do not work.

So, you're saying that the now hybrid ACC will fail?

(11-13-2013 07:16 PM)vabearcat Wrote:  Sorry, ECU. We've been down the road of basketball only schools. It doesn't work.

The road the Old Big East traveled was unbalanced football/bball divisions, which left the ACC with more flexibility than the Old Big East when it came down to one or the other but not both.

(11-18-2013 03:52 PM)LSUtah Wrote:  Football drives the $$ bus and hybrid conferences do not work.

Money drives the bus regardless of where it comes from. The hybrid Big East worked a lot better than a lot of football conferences. It ended when the membership found the opportunity to make more money elsewhere. That included the C7 basketball schools who are earning more money on basketball alone than the football schools they left behind are earning on football and basketball combined. So. It's obviously not football per se that drives the $$ bus.

(11-18-2013 05:06 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  ... That included the C7 basketball schools who are earning more money on basketball alone than the football schools they left behind are earning on football and basketball combined. So. It's obviously not football per se that drives the $$ bus.

Yes, Power conference football may drive the bus, but when the Old Big East was set to lose its status as a Power football conference that was no longer directly relevant to their situation.

Having read ~2/3 of the posts it seems you are debating 2 different issues. 3 if you count ECU not getting invited to old BE. Associate membership (Navy football, VCU basketball, Villanova rowing, etc.) and hybrid membership (VCU all sports except football).

Associates are fine because they don't have any power and they provide benefits to the conference - better/more TV money, tournament qualification, minimum member requirements for NCAA recognition, scheduling, etc. Hybrid memberships are not so good. That is the problem the OBE had - the FB schools vs the BB schools.

Yes, I see the irony of being an ACC fan when the ACC has a hybrid member. I don't have an issue with ND but I don't like hybrids.

It seems like a simple calculation - does VCU add enough TV revenue to make more money for the schools? If not, are you willing to reduce your payout for ease of scheduling?

(11-19-2013 07:25 AM)Wolfman Wrote:  It seems like a simple calculation - does VCU add enough TV revenue to make more money for the schools? If not, are you willing to reduce your payout for ease of scheduling?

Not really. The correct question is this. Does VCU add enough TV revenue, NCAA revenue, basketball reputation and help with travel enough to warrant extending an invitation? I think the answer is yes.

FWIW, without taking ANY of the other revenues into consideration VCU only represents a miniscule "drain" on the TV payout per member.

Let's just use a round number of $2,000,000 paid to every football member with a 75% football / 25% basketball split for the heck of it. All full members would get

$2,000,000 x 12 = $24,000,000 per year for the conference roughly.

75% of that is $18,000,000 for football

$18,000,000 / 12 football members = $1,500,000
$6,000,0000 / 11 basketball members = $545,455
$6,000,000 / 12 basketball members = $500,000

So, just using rough numbers a VCU add only represents a loss of about $50,000 per season. Again, that's before factoring in anything that they could bring to the league like NCAA rev, additional TV money, travel savings, etc. For example, anytime a school needs to travel to ECU for a non-revenue sport they can visit VCU in the same trip 3 hours away. CUSA has operated this way for years.

(11-19-2013 02:38 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  

(11-19-2013 07:25 AM)Wolfman Wrote:  It seems like a simple calculation - does VCU add enough TV revenue to make more money for the schools? If not, are you willing to reduce your payout for ease of scheduling?

Not really. The correct question is this. Does VCU add enough TV revenue, NCAA revenue, basketball reputation and help with travel enough to warrant extending an invitation? I think the answer is yes.

FWIW, without taking ANY of the other revenues into consideration VCU only represents a miniscule "drain" on the TV payout per member.

Let's just use a round number of $2,000,000 paid to every football member with a 75% football / 25% basketball split for the heck of it. All full members would get

$2,000,000 x 12 = $24,000,000 per year for the conference roughly.

75% of that is $18,000,000 for football

$18,000,000 / 12 football members = $1,500,000
$6,000,0000 / 11 basketball members = $545,455
$6,000,000 / 12 basketball members = $500,000

So, just using rough numbers a VCU add only represents a loss of about $50,000 per season. Again, that's before factoring in anything that they could bring to the league like NCAA rev, additional TV money, travel savings, etc. For example, anytime a school needs to travel to ECU for a non-revenue sport they can visit VCU in the same trip 3 hours away. CUSA has operated this way for years.

You also have to flip it. Is it worth it for VCU to accept such an invite? Increased travel for a small bump in pay or the same. They would also be getting away from the major markets of the Northeast for more games in the south and Texahoma.

(11-19-2013 06:58 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(11-19-2013 02:38 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  

(11-19-2013 07:25 AM)Wolfman Wrote:  It seems like a simple calculation - does VCU add enough TV revenue to make more money for the schools? If not, are you willing to reduce your payout for ease of scheduling?

Not really. The correct question is this. Does VCU add enough TV revenue, NCAA revenue, basketball reputation and help with travel enough to warrant extending an invitation? I think the answer is yes.

FWIW, without taking ANY of the other revenues into consideration VCU only represents a miniscule "drain" on the TV payout per member.

Let's just use a round number of $2,000,000 paid to every football member with a 75% football / 25% basketball split for the heck of it. All full members would get

$2,000,000 x 12 = $24,000,000 per year for the conference roughly.

75% of that is $18,000,000 for football

$18,000,000 / 12 football members = $1,500,000
$6,000,0000 / 11 basketball members = $545,455
$6,000,000 / 12 basketball members = $500,000

So, just using rough numbers a VCU add only represents a loss of about $50,000 per season. Again, that's before factoring in anything that they could bring to the league like NCAA rev, additional TV money, travel savings, etc. For example, anytime a school needs to travel to ECU for a non-revenue sport they can visit VCU in the same trip 3 hours away. CUSA has operated this way for years.

You also have to flip it. Is it worth it for VCU to accept such an invite? Increased travel for a small bump in pay or the same. They would also be getting away from the major markets of the Northeast for more games in the south and Texahoma.

That's an easy one. The Big East isn't finished. When they raid the A-10 again what's left will not be adequate for VCU. They know it's coming.

(11-19-2013 10:05 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(11-19-2013 06:58 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(11-19-2013 02:38 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  

(11-19-2013 07:25 AM)Wolfman Wrote:  It seems like a simple calculation - does VCU add enough TV revenue to make more money for the schools? If not, are you willing to reduce your payout for ease of scheduling?

Not really. The correct question is this. Does VCU add enough TV revenue, NCAA revenue, basketball reputation and help with travel enough to warrant extending an invitation? I think the answer is yes.

FWIW, without taking ANY of the other revenues into consideration VCU only represents a miniscule "drain" on the TV payout per member.

Let's just use a round number of $2,000,000 paid to every football member with a 75% football / 25% basketball split for the heck of it. All full members would get

$2,000,000 x 12 = $24,000,000 per year for the conference roughly.

75% of that is $18,000,000 for football

$18,000,000 / 12 football members = $1,500,000
$6,000,0000 / 11 basketball members = $545,455
$6,000,000 / 12 basketball members = $500,000

So, just using rough numbers a VCU add only represents a loss of about $50,000 per season. Again, that's before factoring in anything that they could bring to the league like NCAA rev, additional TV money, travel savings, etc. For example, anytime a school needs to travel to ECU for a non-revenue sport they can visit VCU in the same trip 3 hours away. CUSA has operated this way for years.

You also have to flip it. Is it worth it for VCU to accept such an invite? Increased travel for a small bump in pay or the same. They would also be getting away from the major markets of the Northeast for more games in the south and Texahoma.

That's an easy one. The Big East isn't finished. When they raid the A-10 again what's left will not be adequate for VCU. They know it's coming.

I don't think VCU is an option for the Big East. They currently have all catholic private schools with the exception of Butler (But still founded by christians). I think the Big East will add Dayton and Saint Louis. VCU is a huge public university I don't think they will make an exception. That being said, at that point the A-10 will be completely watered down and VCU will need to make a move. The American seems like the only option. The American may have a small TV payout, but it has an extreme amount of exposure which will only increase the brand.

(11-21-2013 08:24 AM)Jganon93 Wrote:  

(11-19-2013 10:05 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(11-19-2013 06:58 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(11-19-2013 02:38 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  

(11-19-2013 07:25 AM)Wolfman Wrote:  It seems like a simple calculation - does VCU add enough TV revenue to make more money for the schools? If not, are you willing to reduce your payout for ease of scheduling?

Not really. The correct question is this. Does VCU add enough TV revenue, NCAA revenue, basketball reputation and help with travel enough to warrant extending an invitation? I think the answer is yes.

FWIW, without taking ANY of the other revenues into consideration VCU only represents a miniscule "drain" on the TV payout per member.

Let's just use a round number of $2,000,000 paid to every football member with a 75% football / 25% basketball split for the heck of it. All full members would get

$2,000,000 x 12 = $24,000,000 per year for the conference roughly.

75% of that is $18,000,000 for football

$18,000,000 / 12 football members = $1,500,000
$6,000,0000 / 11 basketball members = $545,455
$6,000,000 / 12 basketball members = $500,000

So, just using rough numbers a VCU add only represents a loss of about $50,000 per season. Again, that's before factoring in anything that they could bring to the league like NCAA rev, additional TV money, travel savings, etc. For example, anytime a school needs to travel to ECU for a non-revenue sport they can visit VCU in the same trip 3 hours away. CUSA has operated this way for years.

You also have to flip it. Is it worth it for VCU to accept such an invite? Increased travel for a small bump in pay or the same. They would also be getting away from the major markets of the Northeast for more games in the south and Texahoma.

That's an easy one. The Big East isn't finished. When they raid the A-10 again what's left will not be adequate for VCU. They know it's coming.

I don't think VCU is an option for the Big East. They currently have all catholic private schools with the exception of Butler (But still founded by christians). I think the Big East will add Dayton and Saint Louis. VCU is a huge public university I don't think they will make an exception. That being said, at that point the A-10 will be completely watered down and VCU will need to make a move. The American seems like the only option. The American may have a small TV payout, but it has an extreme amount of exposure which will only increase the brand.

Extreme? No, it does not have an extreme amount of exposure. We have still yet to see the level of exposure once UofL and Rutgers leave. Will ESPN nationally televise the VCU vs Tulane/ECU/Tulsa/USF/UCF/Houston/SMU games?

Oh and VCU is certainly in the mix for a BE spot. If they continue the high level of play it might force the BE hand. There are four legit contenders for the last two spots. SLU, VCU, Dayton and Richmond. Dayton is being blocked by Xavier. Also there are some valid claims that that market is already being covered and that we should expand into new territory. Do not for a second think VCU isn't high on the list of quite a few members of the Big East.

(11-21-2013 01:21 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(11-21-2013 08:24 AM)Jganon93 Wrote:  

(11-19-2013 10:05 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(11-19-2013 06:58 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(11-19-2013 02:38 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  Not really. The correct question is this. Does VCU add enough TV revenue, NCAA revenue, basketball reputation and help with travel enough to warrant extending an invitation? I think the answer is yes.

FWIW, without taking ANY of the other revenues into consideration VCU only represents a miniscule "drain" on the TV payout per member.

Let's just use a round number of $2,000,000 paid to every football member with a 75% football / 25% basketball split for the heck of it. All full members would get

$2,000,000 x 12 = $24,000,000 per year for the conference roughly.

75% of that is $18,000,000 for football

$18,000,000 / 12 football members = $1,500,000
$6,000,0000 / 11 basketball members = $545,455
$6,000,000 / 12 basketball members = $500,000

So, just using rough numbers a VCU add only represents a loss of about $50,000 per season. Again, that's before factoring in anything that they could bring to the league like NCAA rev, additional TV money, travel savings, etc. For example, anytime a school needs to travel to ECU for a non-revenue sport they can visit VCU in the same trip 3 hours away. CUSA has operated this way for years.

You also have to flip it. Is it worth it for VCU to accept such an invite? Increased travel for a small bump in pay or the same. They would also be getting away from the major markets of the Northeast for more games in the south and Texahoma.

That's an easy one. The Big East isn't finished. When they raid the A-10 again what's left will not be adequate for VCU. They know it's coming.

I don't think VCU is an option for the Big East. They currently have all catholic private schools with the exception of Butler (But still founded by christians). I think the Big East will add Dayton and Saint Louis. VCU is a huge public university I don't think they will make an exception. That being said, at that point the A-10 will be completely watered down and VCU will need to make a move. The American seems like the only option. The American may have a small TV payout, but it has an extreme amount of exposure which will only increase the brand.

Extreme? No, it does not have an extreme amount of exposure. We have still yet to see the level of exposure once UofL and Rutgers leave. Will ESPN nationally televise the VCU vs Tulane/ECU/Tulsa/USF/UCF/Houston/SMU games?
Oh and VCU is certainly in the mix for a BE spot. If they continue the high level of play it might force the BE hand. There are four legit contenders for the last two spots. SLU, VCU, Dayton and Richmond. Dayton is being blocked by Xavier. Also there are some valid claims that that market is already being covered and that we should expand into new territory. Do not for a second think VCU isn't high on the list of quite a few members of the Big East.

The contract was negotiated with full knowledge that the C-7 as well as Louisville and Rutgers were leaving. The exposure is the exact same for all 7 years of the basketball contract. In fact, it should be noted that the exposure level was actually negotiated by NBC---ESPN simply matched. NBC added very high levels of exposure thinking ESPN would never match. So when Louisville and Rutgers leave--nothing contractually changes and there is nothing "yet to see" unless you have a link that says otherwise.

As for adding VCU, I'd love to add them---but if the Big East wants them, be my guest. The reality is that all 4 potential Big East additions are solid basketball schools that fit the AAC profile. We would do just fine adding the ones the Big East leaves out--and those two schools would likely jump at the invite. That may in fact be why we have not invited a 12th basketball school--we are simply waiting to see what the Big East does.

(11-21-2013 01:49 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(11-21-2013 01:21 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(11-21-2013 08:24 AM)Jganon93 Wrote:  

(11-19-2013 10:05 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(11-19-2013 06:58 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  You also have to flip it. Is it worth it for VCU to accept such an invite? Increased travel for a small bump in pay or the same. They would also be getting away from the major markets of the Northeast for more games in the south and Texahoma.

That's an easy one. The Big East isn't finished. When they raid the A-10 again what's left will not be adequate for VCU. They know it's coming.

I don't think VCU is an option for the Big East. They currently have all catholic private schools with the exception of Butler (But still founded by christians). I think the Big East will add Dayton and Saint Louis. VCU is a huge public university I don't think they will make an exception. That being said, at that point the A-10 will be completely watered down and VCU will need to make a move. The American seems like the only option. The American may have a small TV payout, but it has an extreme amount of exposure which will only increase the brand.

Extreme? No, it does not have an extreme amount of exposure. We have still yet to see the level of exposure once UofL and Rutgers leave. Will ESPN nationally televise the VCU vs Tulane/ECU/Tulsa/USF/UCF/Houston/SMU games?
Oh and VCU is certainly in the mix for a BE spot. If they continue the high level of play it might force the BE hand. There are four legit contenders for the last two spots. SLU, VCU, Dayton and Richmond. Dayton is being blocked by Xavier. Also there are some valid claims that that market is already being covered and that we should expand into new territory. Do not for a second think VCU isn't high on the list of quite a few members of the Big East.

The contract was negotiated with full knowledge that the C-7 as well as Louisville and Rutgers were leaving. The exposure is the exact same for all 7 years of the basketball contract. In fact, it should be noted that the exposure level was actually negotiated by NBC---ESPN simply matched. NBC added very high levels of exposure thinking ESPN would never match. So when Louisville and Rutgers leave--nothing contractually changes and there is nothing "yet to see" unless you have a link that says otherwise.

As for adding VCU, I'd love to add them---but if the Big East wants them, be my guest. The reality is that all 4 potential Big East additions are solid basketball schools that fit the AAC profile. We would do just fine adding the ones the Big East leaves out--and those two schools would likely jump at the invite. That may in fact be why we have not invited a 12th basketball school--we are simply waiting to see what the Big East does.

My issue is with the wording of "Extreme exposure". The SEC and B1G gets EXTREME EXPOSURE! I do not think for a second the American will get that level. I think the big four of the american in BBall will get plenty of play on espn, while the rest most likely find themselves on espn news/U. Like I said, we have yet to see the actual level of exposure the conference will get. Next season will be more telling.

(11-21-2013 02:47 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(11-21-2013 01:49 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(11-21-2013 01:21 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(11-21-2013 08:24 AM)Jganon93 Wrote:  

(11-19-2013 10:05 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  That's an easy one. The Big East isn't finished. When they raid the A-10 again what's left will not be adequate for VCU. They know it's coming.

I don't think VCU is an option for the Big East. They currently have all catholic private schools with the exception of Butler (But still founded by christians). I think the Big East will add Dayton and Saint Louis. VCU is a huge public university I don't think they will make an exception. That being said, at that point the A-10 will be completely watered down and VCU will need to make a move. The American seems like the only option. The American may have a small TV payout, but it has an extreme amount of exposure which will only increase the brand.

Extreme? No, it does not have an extreme amount of exposure. We have still yet to see the level of exposure once UofL and Rutgers leave. Will ESPN nationally televise the VCU vs Tulane/ECU/Tulsa/USF/UCF/Houston/SMU games?
Oh and VCU is certainly in the mix for a BE spot. If they continue the high level of play it might force the BE hand. There are four legit contenders for the last two spots. SLU, VCU, Dayton and Richmond. Dayton is being blocked by Xavier. Also there are some valid claims that that market is already being covered and that we should expand into new territory. Do not for a second think VCU isn't high on the list of quite a few members of the Big East.

The contract was negotiated with full knowledge that the C-7 as well as Louisville and Rutgers were leaving. The exposure is the exact same for all 7 years of the basketball contract. In fact, it should be noted that the exposure level was actually negotiated by NBC---ESPN simply matched. NBC added very high levels of exposure thinking ESPN would never match. So when Louisville and Rutgers leave--nothing contractually changes and there is nothing "yet to see" unless you have a link that says otherwise.

As for adding VCU, I'd love to add them---but if the Big East wants them, be my guest. The reality is that all 4 potential Big East additions are solid basketball schools that fit the AAC profile. We would do just fine adding the ones the Big East leaves out--and those two schools would likely jump at the invite. That may in fact be why we have not invited a 12th basketball school--we are simply waiting to see what the Big East does.

My issue is with the wording of "Extreme exposure". The SEC and B1G gets EXTREME EXPOSURE! I do not think for a second the American will get that level. I think the big four of the american in BBall will get plenty of play on espn, while the rest most likely find themselves on espn news/U. Like I said, we have yet to see the actual level of exposure the conference will get. Next season will be more telling.

I don't disagree. There is no doubt that ESPN-News slots as well as a healthy helping of CBS-Sports Network (as can be seen this year) will be involved with basketball. That said, the end result will be every single conference basketball game being nationally televised. So I'd say that's right up there with the top conferences in exposure terms.

ESPNU/ESPN3/some ESPN2 > whatever Tulane, SMU, Tulsa, UH, etc. were getting in C-USA.

It's all relative.