(12-07-2013 04:15 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  Three divisions can work if you have a semi-final with a wild card team. However the NCAA has to authorize a 14th regular season game. This is one way to accommodate larger sizes, but don't ignore the basketball issues as well.

1.) When people say "the NCAA needs to approve it," it is important to note that does NOT mean Mark Emmert or anyone else in Indianapolis. Rather, it means members of the Big Five other leagues - or will soon mean that. Why would they vote for that?

That's why I always laugh when the Big East or later the Big 12 say, "We're going to apply for a waiver with the NCAA that would allow us to have a conference championship game despite not having the minimum required number of teams (12)." Why would everyone else agree to that?

None of those other leagues are going to lift a finger to do anything that may give the ACC an advantage.

2.) I don't see the advantages of that system anyway. To me, all it seems to do is to further fragment an already fragile league.

And again, how do you determine the Wild Card? Ranking? Sagarin rating? Tarot cards? Rock/Paper/Scissors? Guess what number I'm thinking of?

3.) I don't understand the point about basketball? As far as I know, there won't ever be any divisions or pods in hoops. Are you suggesting that the pods will apply to basketball as well as football? I wouldn't be for that solution at all.

(12-07-2013 04:18 PM)4x4hokies Wrote:  

(12-07-2013 04:04 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(12-07-2013 03:56 PM)MKPitt Wrote:  

(12-07-2013 03:40 PM)4x4hokies Wrote:  

(12-07-2013 03:11 PM)westmc9th Wrote:  I had heard that the Clemson AD had spoke in an interview recently that divisional realignment may be a very big reality soon. So I got in touch with my friend and this is what I learned. The decision to put Louisville in the Atlantic was a quick decision and has no merit, which means the whole arugment that the two divisions are equal is moot. Clemson is upset it doesn't get to see North Carolina and Virginia, two founding members, but once every decade in Death Valley. FSU wants georgia Tech. At next months winter meetings some intense discussions are supposed to happen, Swofford is in favor of trying some new options which may need some NCAA approval. Such as no divisions at all, or new divisions every year. North Vs South has also been discussed with Wake forest and/or Miami in the north and Virginia in the south. A move back to 9 games may also be back in the cards. Pods that are differently numbered is also a possibility, I don't understand how that would work. There is also a push for just the best two teams to play for the conference title not just Coastal vs Atlantic.

Edit: Apparently one pod idea is two pods of 5 and one of 4 apparently was a suggestion by several ADs. If someone knows how that could work let me know
I will post some more info later, let me know what y'all think

This is how I would do three pods.
Pod 3 are two pairs that get rotated between Division 1 and Division 2. Everyone keeps a permanent rival in the other division. You play your 6 division mates, permanent rival then rotate through the other 4 opponents (Pod 3 plays each other every year). So you play everyone every four years instead of 6 now (Pod 3 would play everyone home/home in four years).

Division 1 Division 2
FSU---- Miami
NCSU--- UNC
Wake--- Duke
Clemson- UVA
GT ----- VT

Pod 3
Syracuse--BC
Louisville--Pitt

Here is another scenario for those that think the North is getting picked on.

Division 1 Division 2
VT ---- UVA
NCSU -- UNC
Wake-- Duke
Pitt ----Syracuse
BC --- Louisville

Pod 3
FSU - Miami
GT -- Clemson

I think scenario one is perfect, annual games with Louisville, BC, and Syracuse and everyone else every other year sounds great to me for Pitt.

Gross.
Pitt playing UL and SU every year and SU playing Pitt and BC every year makes a LOT more sense than Pitt playing BC and SU every year and SU playing Pitt and UL. Change it accordingly and it would work for me. However, losing Pitt and BC as yearly games is a non-starter.

Then just go with option 1. Not everyone gets to play 100% of the teams they want.

You're making it sound like I'm being demanding. There's exactly one existing rivalry game amongst the northern ACC schools and you're trying to separate the two schools for no reason. That's like not making VT-UVA an annual game.

Trade BC and UL and the problem is solved. It really isn't that complicated. UL gets Pitt, Pitt gets SU and UL, SU gets Pitt and BC, and BC gets SU. Everyone wins.

(12-07-2013 04:36 PM)ecuacc4ever Wrote:  My $0.02

First and foremost, this is about a 9 game schedule that includes a modified rotation for cross-division opponents -- so Clemson can get game dates from North Carolina than South Carolina currently does.

For the newbies -- the Clemson/North Carolina football rivalry was as nasty, intense and antagonistic as any in the nation.

Secondarily, I believe Clemson is kinda speaking up for Virginia who, I'm pretty sure, is not happy being assigned as Louisville's cross-dvision rivalry.

This really has nothing to do with Clemson being unhappy in a division with FSU. While we fans *think* a Clemson/FSU pair in the ACCCG would be best, remember that:

1) The original divisions were crafted so we'd see a pairing that's yet to happen -- FSU/Miami, and
2) Clemson and FSU are likely very happy with the gate $$$$ each season.

So.. in addition to adopting a 9-game schedule, what school switches places with Louisville…?

Scenario I:

- North Carolina, Virginia and Duke are tied to the hip, so rule them out.

- Virginia Tech is tied to the hip with Virginia, AND moving them to the Atlantic would create a perceived imbalance.

- North Carolina is not giving up semi-annual trips to Atlanta, so rule Georgia Tech out.

That leaves Miami or Pitt.

Moving Miami creates the same kind of perceived division imbalance that would happen with a VT move.

That leaves Pitt.

Next up -- readjusting the cross-division rivalries:

FSU - Miami
Clemson - GT
NC State - North Carolina
Wake Forest - Duke
Syracuse - Virginia
BC - Virginia Tech
Pitt - Louisville (and the ACC continues to rub WV's nose in it.)

Now, VT is reunited with its Metro brother while keeping its rivalries with Virginia, Carolina and Duke.

Virginia doesn't "lose" Louisville, but it gains an annual game with Syracuse, while keeping its annual game with Carolina and VT.

Louisville gains an annual game with North Carolina which I bet they'd prefer to an annual game with NC State, AND in most years, they'd only see FSU and Clemson in the ACCCG.

I would make Pitt/VT a crossover due to their history of good games and have Syracuse play Louisivlle as a nod to their basketball rivalry. That leaves UVA with BC...they both lost out by losing Maryland so they can get over it together.

Geographic with existing membership:

ACC Coastal:
Florida State
Clemson
Georgia Tech
North Carolina
Duke
NC State
Wake Forest

ACC Atlantic:
Syracuse
Boston College
Pittsburgh
Louisville
Virginia
Virginia Tech
Miami


That is the least suck. Sadly divisions are going to suck until we get ND as a full member and pods.

With Pods:

ACC Coastal South:
Florida State
Miami
Georgia Tech
Clemson

ACC Coastal North:
North Carolina
Duke
Wake Forest
NC State

ACC Atlantic North:
Pittsburgh
Boston College
Syracuse
Notre Dame

ACC Atlantic South:
Virginia
Virginia Tech
Louisville
(Expansion ... Cincinnati/Pedo State/?)

(12-07-2013 04:45 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  

(12-07-2013 04:15 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  Three divisions can work if you have a semi-final with a wild card team. However the NCAA has to authorize a 14th regular season game. This is one way to accommodate larger sizes, but don't ignore the basketball issues as well.

1.) When people say "the NCAA needs to approve it," it is important to note that does NOT mean Mark Emmert or anyone else in Indianapolis. Rather, it means members of the Big Five other leagues - or will soon mean that. Why would they vote for that?

That's why I always laugh when the Big East or later the Big 12 say, "We're going to apply for a waiver with the NCAA that would allow us to have a conference championship game despite not having the minimum required number of teams (12)." Why would everyone else agree to that?

None of those other leagues are going to lift a finger to do anything that may give the ACC an advantage.

2.) I don't see the advantages of that system anyway. To me, all it seems to do is to further fragment an already fragile league.

And again, how do you determine the Wild Card? Ranking? Sagarin rating? Tarot cards? Rock/Paper/Scissors? Guess what number I'm thinking of?

3.) I don't understand the point about basketball? As far as I know, there won't ever be any divisions or pods in hoops. Are you suggesting that the pods will apply to basketball as well as football? I wouldn't be for that solution at all.

7

(12-07-2013 04:06 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  12. GT wants to play FSU or Clemson every year

GT wants to play Clemson every year. UGAg matters most. Then Clemson. Compared to those two games, we could care less about the rest of the schedule.

(12-07-2013 04:47 PM)4x4hokies Wrote:  I would make Pitt/VT a crossover due to their history of good games and have Syracuse play Louisivlle as a nod to their basketball rivalry. That leaves UVA with BC...they both lost out by losing Maryland so they can get over it together.

Yeah… no, I don't think that's how the ACC office would treat one of the (virtual) original members. If it came to it, I can see UVA getting some "priority" say on choosing the cross-division school.

Another way to help address this issue is to go to a nine game league schedule and to eliminate some of the annual crossover games. Keep the biggies but the truth is some (the majority) of them are merely placeholders. I think people would prefer variety over some of these "traditional rivalry games."

florida state for Miami wouldn't seem like a bad option and is probably the easiest to accomplish especially if it came with going to 9 conference games.

Atlantic----------------------------------------Coastal
Miami------------------------------------------Florida State
Clemson---------------------------------------Georgia Tech
Louisville---------------------------------------Virginia Tech
Boston College---------------------------------Virginia
Syracuse---------------------------------------Pittsburgh
NC State---------------------------------------North Carolina
Wake Forest-----------------------------------Duke

another option :
Atlantic----------------------------------------Coastal
Miami------------------------------------------Florida State
Virginia Tech----------------------------------Virginia
Clemson---------------------------------------Georgia Tech
NC State---------------------------------------North Carolina
Wake Forest-----------------------------------Duke
Syracuse---------------------------------------Pittsburgh
Boston College--------------------------------Louisvile

(12-07-2013 05:04 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  Another way to help address this issue is to go to a nine game league schedule and to eliminate some of the annual crossover games. Keep the biggies but the truth is some (the majority) of them are merely placeholders. I think people would prefer variety over some of these "traditional rivalry games."

The newbies may think these games are placeholders, but I think Lumber outlined the "showstoppers" pretty well.

There is virtually no way to eliminate them and prevent anarchy at the same time.

(12-07-2013 04:49 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  ACC Coastal South:
Florida State
Miami
Georgia Tech
Clemson

ACC Coastal North:
North Carolina
Duke
Wake Forest
NC State

ACC Atlantic North:
Pittsburgh
Boston College
Syracuse
Notre Dame

ACC Atlantic South:
Virginia
Virginia Tech
Louisville
(Expansion ... Cincinnati/Pedo State/?)

My pods handle all requirements (modified some from lumbar's listing):

You play everybody in your pod. You play one permanent cross over in every other pod. You rotate one game in every other pod. Nine games.

Required:
- UNC/NCSU must play each year
- UNC/UVA must play each year
- UNC/Duke must play each year
- NCSU/Clemson must play each year
- FSU/Miami must play each year
- GT/Clemson must play each year
- FSU/Clemson must play each year
- BC/Cuse must play each year
- VT/UVA must play each year
- VT must have one game a year in the State of NC

Preferred:
- Everybody in NC plays everybody else in NC
- FSU wants to avoid Duke and WF

From what I am hearing there are a number of things being brought up in this thread as being important that aren't very important at all.

I am also hearing that Clemson wants FSU and GT on the schedule every year. Year in and year out they have proven to be the only consistent home draws in conference and we aren't going to give that up without compensation. Gameday isn't coming to Clemson for a game against the NC schools.

Also Miami every other year is a no-go unless we lose both Syracuse and BC as divisional opponents. We are not going to be happy if we have to go from one end of the conference to the other unless the ACC picks up the entire travel cost.

Please not us in the north again. It's a divided subject among UM fans and personally I hate the idea of it.

(12-07-2013 06:36 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  From what I am hearing there are a number of things being brought up in this thread as being important that aren't very important at all.

I am also hearing that Clemson wants FSU and GT on the schedule every year. Year in and year out they have proven to be the only consistent home draws in conference and we aren't going to give that up without compensation. Gameday isn't coming to Clemson for a game against the NC schools.

Also Miami every other year is a no-go unless we lose both Syracuse and BC as divisional opponents. We are not going to be happy if we have to go from one end of the conference to the other unless the ACC picks up the entire travel cost.

Wait...BC and Wake Forest had a higher attendance number at Clemson than GT did this year. How is it that GT is a consistent home draw? I also think Clemson draws well at home with UNC and NC State.

I think FSU and Clemson should be split up. Having them in the Atlantic and then with Louisville is causing that division to be too top heavy. Now if Miami, VT, GT, UNC step up then it's no issue.

Nobody ever wants to give in these situations but somebody has to. Hopefully everybody will put their big boy pants on for these conversations and do what's best for the conference as a whole.

Honestly, I don't care what division Pitt is in or who their annual game is anymore. I'd think preserving the annual game with Syracuse would be a priority but we've got history with quite a few of the schools from the former Big East. If we can't keep the annual game with Syracuse, so be it.

(12-07-2013 06:45 PM)jaminandjachin Wrote:  Wait...BC and Wake Forest had a higher attendance number at Clemson than GT did this year. How is it that GT is a consistent home draw?

GT this year was a Thursday night game. It was our first in 11 years because of where we are in the state we don't draw on Thursday night, and we wouldn't have played this one if it were not forced upon us by the ACC.

The last time before that we hosted a Thursday night game the attendance was listed as 74k vs NC State, but that was tickets sold. If there were 65k fans in the stands that night we were lucky. You could clearly see the TIGERS painted in the north stands.

Quote: I also think Clemson draws well at home with UNC and NC State.

Not unless we are having a year like last year or this year. None of the NC teams brings an appreciable crowd, with UNC, NC State and surprisingly Wake all being about the same. Duke brings a couple hundred. Every FCS team we play brings more fans than Duke, with SC State and Furman probably equaling the other NC schools.

Quote:I think FSU and Clemson should be split up. Having them in the Atlantic and then with Louisville is causing that division to be too top heavy. Now if Miami, VT, GT, UNC step up then it's no issue.

Competitive balance was why FSU and Miami were split up and how did that work out?

The last thing UNC should want if they ever want to play for ACC championships is for either Clemson or FSU to be in their division. History shows that they simply can't compete year in and year out against either team, even in the few years in history UNC actually tried to win at football.

So is the expansion to 16 just a guess or what. So I will play ACC expands to 17 (16 + Notre Dame) in all sports but football. In football, we add Cincinnati and UConn.

Boston College
Connecticut
Syracuse
Pitt

Cincinnati
Louisville
Virginia Tech
Virginia

North Carolina
North Carolina State
Wake Forest
Duke

Clemson
George Tech
FSU
Miami

(12-07-2013 09:55 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(12-07-2013 06:45 PM)jaminandjachin Wrote:  Wait...BC and Wake Forest had a higher attendance number at Clemson than GT did this year. How is it that GT is a consistent home draw?

GT this year was a Thursday night game. It was our first in 11 years because of where we are in the state we don't draw on Thursday night, and we wouldn't have played this one if it were not forced upon us by the ACC.

The last time before that we hosted a Thursday night game the attendance was listed as 74k vs NC State, but that was tickets sold. If there were 65k fans in the stands that night we were lucky. You could clearly see the TIGERS painted in the north stands.

Quote: I also think Clemson draws well at home with UNC and NC State.

Not unless we are having a year like last year or this year. None of the NC teams brings an appreciable crowd, with UNC, NC State and surprisingly Wake all being about the same. Duke brings a couple hundred. Every FCS team we play brings more fans than Duke, with SC State and Furman probably equaling the other NC schools.

Quote:I think FSU and Clemson should be split up. Having them in the Atlantic and then with Louisville is causing that division to be too top heavy. Now if Miami, VT, GT, UNC step up then it's no issue.

Competitive balance was why FSU and Miami were split up and how did that work out?

The last thing UNC should want if they ever want to play for ACC championships is for either Clemson or FSU to be in their division. History shows that they simply can't compete year in and year out against either team, even in the few years in history UNC actually tried to win at football.

Actually in the late 90s under Mack Brown, UNC competed very well. Consecutive top 10 finishes so I know it can be done.

(12-07-2013 10:00 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  So is the expansion to 16 just a guess or what. So I will play ACC expands to 17 (16 + Notre Dame) in all sports but football. In football, we add Cincinnati and UConn.

Boston College
Connecticut
Syracuse
Pitt

Cincinnati
Louisville
Virginia Tech
Virginia

North Carolina
North Carolina State
Wake Forest
Duke

Clemson
George Tech
FSU
Miami

You win for worst possible scenario.

And that was the worst period of Clemson football in 30 years. When Clemson even halfway tries UNC can't overcome them.

We know that there is no way we could ever overcome the advantage you have in basketball. We might get lucky once or twice in twenty years or so, but overall we aren't going to pass you because of the basketball first culture in Chapel Hill. The reverse is true in football.