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I think #15 is...
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BruceMcF Offline
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Post: #21
RE: I think #15 is...
(05-06-2014 01:14 PM)UConnHusky Wrote:  Other than AAU status (which UConn is getting close to obtaining), I will argue that UConn is much preferable to Kansas.
Yes, Kansas is an example of a school that only comes into consideration as a #16 because of AAU status.
05-06-2014 02:19 PM
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Waterloo Offline
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Post: #22
RE: I think #15 is...
No thanks, I'd still rather have KU.

KU, Mizzou, OU and (insert school here) would be fine by me. If that parenthesis is UConn, UVA or Syracuse is not important, just need a good 4th school to join the aforementioned 3 Midwestern schools listed.

Texas would be a good add of course, but Texas is Notre Dame except bigger. Texas doesn't need the B1G and could easily find a home in the ACC like Notre Dame for its Olympic sports.
05-06-2014 05:04 PM
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UConnHusky Offline
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Post: #23
RE: I think #15 is...
(05-06-2014 05:04 PM)Waterloo Wrote:  No thanks, I'd still rather have KU.

KU, Mizzou, OU and (insert school here) would be fine by me. If that parenthesis is UConn, UVA or Syracuse is not important, just need a good 4th school to join the aforementioned 3 Midwestern schools listed.

Texas would be a good add of course, but Texas is Notre Dame except bigger. Texas doesn't need the B1G and could easily find a home in the ACC like Notre Dame for its Olympic sports.

As an Iowa fan, I think that you are approaching conference expansion with a slight Midwestern bias (which I can understand and I would do the same if I were looking at it from your viewpoint). However, Jim Delany has stated that he wants to look east to grow the footprint (thus the new office in New York City, etc.)

That said, Mizzou is still a better choice than anyone. The question now is if the B1G could pry Mizzou away from the SEC. The B1G has an academic advantage, but the SEC offers tons of money, the best football in the land, and is located in the south where states are constantly exploding with population gains. Would Mizzou give that up? Hard to say. (I personally would - the B1G schools are a better group with which to be affiliated in my opinion.) However, I bet that Mizzou would stay put in the SEC.

While not bad, OU isn't that great of a school academically and Texas is Texas.....they will want to control more than their fair share of conference decisions - would the B1G want to deal with that?
05-07-2014 09:54 AM
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BruceMcF Offline
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Post: #24
RE: I think #15 is...
(05-07-2014 09:54 AM)UConnHusky Wrote:  That said, Mizzou is still a better choice than anyone. The question now is if the B1G could pry Mizzou away from the SEC.
Reckon not ... I think that ship has sailed. Once you join a Big Three conference, you don't back out again.
05-07-2014 06:13 PM
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Waterloo Offline
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Post: #25
RE: I think #15 is...
(05-07-2014 09:54 AM)UConnHusky Wrote:  While not bad, OU isn't that great of a school academically and Texas is Texas.....they will want to control more than their fair share of conference decisions - would the B1G want to deal with that?

No.

B1G doesn't need Texas and all the baggage that goes with it. And if Texas A&M doesn't the the Longhorns, neither does OU.

Like I said, Texas is like Notre Dame except bigger and richer, Like A&M, I could see OU wanting to get out from under that shadow.
05-07-2014 10:07 PM
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He1nousOne Offline
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Post: #26
RE: I think #15 is...
(05-06-2014 05:05 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(05-05-2014 10:46 PM)Waterloo Wrote:  Secondly, I understand the AAU angle, but Nebraska doesn't have their ranking anymore and it's still a great university.
But Nebraska was brought in the door when they still had their AAU ranking, and while the insiders in the Big Ten would have known that Nebraska was just about to lose that status, there's a difference between the insiders who want to make the move knowing something and outsiders who might raise a stink knowing something.

The thing is that if OU were part of a pair, and the other part of the pair was Texas, Texas would be a bright enough bauble for the academic snobs at Wisconsin and That School Up North that they could well decide to hold their nose about OU.

Another football blue blood program that also brings the conference as a whole closer to stronger recruiting grounds. I think Oklahoma would be acceptable.

The pairing of Oklahoma and Kansas means one more blue blood basketball program and one more blue blood football program.

It also means easy divisional makeup where as two more from the East will complicate matters.
05-09-2014 11:47 PM
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BruceMcF Offline
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Post: #27
RE: I think #15 is...
(05-09-2014 11:47 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(05-06-2014 05:05 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(05-05-2014 10:46 PM)Waterloo Wrote:  Secondly, I understand the AAU angle, but Nebraska doesn't have their ranking anymore and it's still a great university.
But Nebraska was brought in the door when they still had their AAU ranking, and while the insiders in the Big Ten would have known that Nebraska was just about to lose that status, there's a difference between the insiders who want to make the move knowing something and outsiders who might raise a stink knowing something.

The thing is that if OU were part of a pair, and the other part of the pair was Texas, Texas would be a bright enough bauble for the academic snobs at Wisconsin and That School Up North that they could well decide to hold their nose about OU.

Another football blue blood program that also brings the conference as a whole closer to stronger recruiting grounds. I think Oklahoma would be acceptable.

The pairing of Oklahoma and Kansas means one more blue blood basketball program and one more blue blood football program.

It also means easy divisional makeup where as two more from the East will complicate matters.

Though Kansas is not a shiny enough bauble on the academic front to distract the academic snobs from Oklahoma.
05-10-2014 10:30 AM
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He1nousOne Offline
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Post: #28
RE: I think #15 is...
(05-10-2014 10:30 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(05-09-2014 11:47 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(05-06-2014 05:05 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(05-05-2014 10:46 PM)Waterloo Wrote:  Secondly, I understand the AAU angle, but Nebraska doesn't have their ranking anymore and it's still a great university.
But Nebraska was brought in the door when they still had their AAU ranking, and while the insiders in the Big Ten would have known that Nebraska was just about to lose that status, there's a difference between the insiders who want to make the move knowing something and outsiders who might raise a stink knowing something.

The thing is that if OU were part of a pair, and the other part of the pair was Texas, Texas would be a bright enough bauble for the academic snobs at Wisconsin and That School Up North that they could well decide to hold their nose about OU.

Another football blue blood program that also brings the conference as a whole closer to stronger recruiting grounds. I think Oklahoma would be acceptable.

The pairing of Oklahoma and Kansas means one more blue blood basketball program and one more blue blood football program.

It also means easy divisional makeup where as two more from the East will complicate matters.

Though Kansas is not a shiny enough bauble on the academic front to distract the academic snobs from Oklahoma.

The major enticements for the pair are not necessarily academic in nature. The academics of the pair though, in my opinion, are just enough to sell the pair of them on the academic end considering the upside in other ways by adding them.

Once again...new rules are coming. The possibilities will be so much more.
05-10-2014 08:39 PM
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BruceMcF Offline
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Post: #29
RE: I think #15 is...
(05-10-2014 08:39 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(05-10-2014 10:30 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  Though Kansas is not a shiny enough bauble on the academic front to distract the academic snobs from Oklahoma.

The major enticements for the pair are not necessarily academic in nature.
That goes without saying. For the top line sports, academics are a hurdle to get over and then a marketing talking point, they aren't the driver of the move. There is no pair of schools where academics alone comes close to adding 1/7 of the perceived total value of the Big Ten.

Quote: The academics of the pair though, in my opinion, are just enough to sell the pair of them on the academic end considering the upside in other ways by adding them.
That's precisely what I expressed skepticism on, and you didn't add anything to suggest that they are enough to sell the pair of them on the academic end.

To be sure, Kansas's academics are good enough for it to clear that hurdle on its own merits, if it made an attractive enough value proposition to consider inviting in the first place. But not good enough to provide cover for another school.

If the relative value of BBall is changed by changing the 80% of Big Dance revenue that props up NCAA services or is paid out to cross-subsidize football and non-revenue sports, its conceivable that both UConn and Kansas suddenly come into the frame as realistic #16 options, and between the two, its an East/West fight where the Kansas supporters can use academics to tar UConn.
05-11-2014 04:36 PM
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He1nousOne Offline
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Post: #30
RE: I think #15 is...
Conference tournament, four divisions of four teams that are based upon geography to create more strong rivalries that actually have meaning for the post season...much like with the NFL.

The Networks will want it and they will pay AND the window of negotiation is upon us. Kansas and Oklahoma matter where it counts. Sure the Big Ten would have rather pulled some top schools out east but there is no scenario that can do that anymore.

Oklahoma and Kansas are the best pair possible.
05-13-2014 07:47 PM
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john01992 Offline
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Post: #31
RE: I think #15 is...
as far as uconn is concerned their b10 expansion bid is DOA. most b10 schools have an endowment in the 1 bill-3 bill range and uconn sits at just 300 mill. extremely rural campus and a small enrollment for b10 standards. their only strength is in BB, a sport that time & time again proves to have no meaningful effect on realignment (see ville & kansas). TBH I don't understand how it is even a conversation.

personally id rank all the expansion candidates like this:

tier 1:
notre dame & texas

tier 2:
virginia, washington, oregon, stanford, usc, cal, ucla, unc, duke, colorado

tier 3:
aggie, kansas, mizz, pitt, arizona

tier 4:
oklahoma, virginia tech, syracuse, BC, iowa state, arizona state, NC state

tier 5:
kansas state, oklahoma state, texas tech, uconn, wake forest, navy
05-13-2014 09:38 PM
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ohio1317 Offline
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Post: #32
RE: I think #15 is...
It's certainly possible that eventually, if conferences expand again, that we end up with conference semi-finals (something I don't think we are close to though).

I don't think we'll ever be seeing straight 4 divisions with a 4 team playoff though. Here's various ways, you could arrange it (just because I love playing with these set-ups).

Set-up 1: 4 divisional set-up with the winners of the 4 divisions meeting in a 4 team playoff:
Note: Everyone plays there 3 divisional mates and 6 others (likely with 1 locked crossover). The divisional make-up itself is unimportant and you could set-up this exact same scenario with any set of teams you wanted to.

Division A
Penn State 6-3
Ohio State 5-4
Rutgers 3-6
Maryland 2-7

Division B
Michigan State 8-1 (Michigan State defeated Michigan and Nebraska)
Michigan 8-1
Indiana 4-5
Purdue 2-7

Division C
Wisconsin 5-4
Minnesota 3-6
Northwestern 3-6
Illinois 1-8

Division D
Nebraska 8-1
Oklahoma 7-2
Iowa 5-4
Kansas 2-7

The playoff: Michigan State (8-1) vs. Wisconsin (5-4) and Nebraska (8-1) vs. Penn State (6-3).
Most notably it would leave out co-divisional winner 8-1 Michigan. It would also leave out several teams with the same/better record than Wisconsin.


Set-up 2: 4 divisional set-up with the winners of the 3 divisions meeting in a 4 team playoff and one wildcard:
We're using the same divisions/results as above. Only the top 3 divisional winners are included automatically in this though with the 4th going to a wildcard.

The Playoff: Michigan State (8-1) vs. Penn State (6-3) and Nebraska (8-1) vs. Michigan (8-1)

Set-up 3: Single division, top 4 to playoff.

Note: These are the same results as above, but without divisions.

Michigan State 8-1 (Michigan State defeated Michigan and Nebraska)
Michigan 8-1
Nebraska 8-1
Oklahoma 7-2
Penn State 6-3
Iowa 5-4
Ohio State 5-4
Wisconsin 5-4
Indiana 4-5
Minnesota 3-6
Northwestern 3-6
Rutgers 3-6
Maryland 2-7
Kansas 2-7
Purdue 2-7
Illinois 1-8

The playoff: Michigan State (8-1) vs. Oklahoma (7-2) and Michigan (8-1) vs. Nebraska (8-1)

Alternatives: You could also have 2 divisions (not necessary with round robin play) with either the top team or top 2 teams locked in.
05-13-2014 10:01 PM
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DexterDevil Offline
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Post: #33
RE: I think #15 is...
Id set up the 4x4 divisions like this;
(if Kansas and OU are added) West: Nebraska, Oklahoma, Iowa, Kansas
Central: Illinois, Northwestern, Indiana, Purdue
North: Michigan, Sparty, Minny, Wisky
East: Ohio State, Penn State, Maryland, Rutgers

If UConn and Syracuse/BC/Virginia are added;
East: Maryland, Rutgers, UConn, other
West: Iowa, Nebraska, Minny, Wisky
South: Indiana, Purdue, Illinois, Northwestern
North: Michigan, Sparty, Bucknuts, and Penn State
Im biased and prefer facing Wisky with a rivalry growing while Michigan keeps the Brown Jug rivalry active with Minny.

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05-13-2014 10:37 PM
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BruceMcF Offline
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Post: #34
RE: I think #15 is...
Well, you know me, I'd set up 4x4 divisions like this: don't do it.
05-16-2014 08:58 AM
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DexterDevil Offline
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Post: #35
RE: I think #15 is...
Any chance we get too big and split?

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05-16-2014 06:16 PM
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He1nousOne Offline
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Post: #36
RE: I think #15 is...
(05-16-2014 06:16 PM)DexterDevil Wrote:  Any chance we get too big and split?

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No
05-16-2014 09:27 PM
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ohio1317 Offline
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Post: #37
RE: I think #15 is...
(05-16-2014 06:16 PM)DexterDevil Wrote:  Any chance we get too big and split?

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Long term, absolutely.

I think there is actually very big risks if you get conferences too big of them breaking up. History is already on that side. The old Southern Conference consisted of most the core ACC and SEC and it broke apart. In the modern era, the WAC was the first conference to 16. The top programs didn't like the set-up there and left and formed the Mountain West.

Conferences expand because of economic realities/precieved realities. Once those realities change though, it's almost impossible to kick out members and the way out is to leave the conference and start anew.

I think the leaders of the conferences kind of know this though and I think they will allow things to sit at 14 for quite awhile before we get our next 16 team conference.
05-16-2014 11:50 PM
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He1nousOne Offline
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Post: #38
RE: I think #15 is...
(05-16-2014 11:50 PM)ohio1317 Wrote:  
(05-16-2014 06:16 PM)DexterDevil Wrote:  Any chance we get too big and split?

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Long term, absolutely.

I think there is actually very big risks if you get conferences too big of them breaking up. History is already on that side. The old Southern Conference consisted of most the core ACC and SEC and it broke apart. In the modern era, the WAC was the first conference to 16. The top programs didn't like the set-up there and left and formed the Mountain West.

Conferences expand because of economic realities/precieved realities. Once those realities change though, it's almost impossible to kick out members and the way out is to leave the conference and start anew.

I think the leaders of the conferences kind of know this though and I think they will allow things to sit at 14 for quite awhile before we get our next 16 team conference.

You honestly believe there is a threat of The Big Ten breaking up? I'm sorry but I think you are letting your beliefs hinder your judgement on this one if that is really the case.

The Big Ten would NEVER expand if everyone wasn't on board with it and I mean EVERYONE. So the idea of any expansion causing a split is just silly. We live in a different age. Regionalism at the level that matters is dying. Calls for some of these schools to leave the Big Ten would fall upon deaf ears.
05-17-2014 03:50 PM
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BruceMcF Offline
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Post: #39
RE: I think #15 is...
(05-17-2014 03:50 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  You honestly believe there is a threat of The Big Ten breaking up? I'm sorry but I think you are letting your beliefs hinder your judgement on this one if that is really the case.
It would require a complete change in the economics of college sports ... and the most likely dividing line would seem to be between the original Big Ten schools and the newbies, but I think that in another decade, both Penn State and Nebraska will be sufficiently well integrated that that fault line may not be there by the time that the economics of college sports shifts.
05-17-2014 06:45 PM
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ohio1317 Offline
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Post: #40
RE: I think #15 is...
(05-17-2014 03:50 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  You honestly believe there is a threat of The Big Ten breaking up? I'm sorry but I think you are letting your beliefs hinder your judgement on this one if that is really the case.

The Big Ten would NEVER expand if everyone wasn't on board with it and I mean EVERYONE. So the idea of any expansion causing a split is just silly. We live in a different age. Regionalism at the level that matters is dying. Calls for some of these schools to leave the Big Ten would fall upon deaf ears.

What I think you are greatly underestimating here is the effect of time. You are right that right now, that's silly. How many things in sports would have been impossible in an earlier age, but are happening now. I can tell you that only about 5-6 years ago, I created a post on a different Big Ten message board and set-up a fairly wild scenario to get us 16/18 team conferences. The almost universal response was that's insane, but a lot of what we got went along those kind of lines and would have gone a lot further along those if Texas had decided to leave the Big 12. The fact that expansion has been the theme of the past couple of decades suggests it will be in the foreseeable future too, but it also increases the risk of the opposite happening.

To me, the key to looking at the future is not correctly guessing any one move, but looking at key changes and considering the long term impact those could have. I'm not saying a break-up will happen, but the odds of one increase with a bigger conference as the easiest way out of a big conference is a break-up. There is a great connection within the Big Ten right now, but if you alter a few variables and play that out long enough, it's one of several possible scenarios.

Here's a few scenarios for the next 30 years of college play that I can think of that have a reasonable degree of happening:

1. Merger of conferences: Fewer conferences means that there is much less room for the networks to play one off the other (a big reason you saw ESPN pay the Big 12 more to stop the PAC-16). In theory this means that the best way to make money is not to have 5 major conferences, but only 1. Right now, if you are ESPN, you can accept loosing one of the major conferences knowing there are others. If there is only one, you have to have a contract with them or you get no major football. That means ESPN is probably going to be willing to pay extra.

Now, maybe you keep the existing conference structure for other sports and maybe even keep the base set-up in football, but from a pure TV money perspective, it might not hurt to unite all the major conferences and Notre Dame.

2. Merger of schools: Let's take #1, but instead of conferences merging, imagine schools. Let's say the economy really sucks in 10 years and everyone is desperate for money. Is it really impossible to imagine that the top 40 programs would be willing to leave their current conferences if the new set-up offered 3x the average TV money per school. They might do so reluctantly, but if they are desperate in a bad economy they'll probably be no different than Maryland which reluctantly broke long standing ties with the ACC.


3. Status Quo or smaller expansion: It's possible the basic structure we have now is the best way to make profits and will be steady enough to last decades. Maybe we end up with 16 team conferences too, but the basic framework of 4/5 power conferences remains and a full merger never materializes because the conferences (or at least the strongest conferences) don't see enough benefit.

4. Break-up due to lack of popularity: 60 years ago the biggest sports in America were baseball, horse racing, and boxing. Football will not be where it is forever. Let's say the sport loses a lot of its following, especially at the college level. If college football stops being a big money maker in TV dollars, then all of a sudden smaller regional conferences start to make more sense again and all of this travel is just throwing away money. Now the CIC would probably survive that, but it's more than possible you could see the sports conferences themselves break into smaller units.

5. Break-up due to bigger not being better: Everyone right now is assuming that bigger is usually better and they are probably right. What if they aren't though? I'll guarantee you that in the Big 12, a much higher percent of the teams will be regularly competing and winning championships than in the bigger conferences. It's a lot easier for a program like Kansas State or Baylor to have value in the Big 12 set-up than in a 14/16 team conference. Let's say that after a decade and half of the current set-up, the big schools in various conference realize this. If that's the case, then they'd be better served by leaving their current conference and taking with them the programs they want to associate with in a newer smaller conference.

My actual belief is #3 as the most probable, but we've had very few years with big conferences and I think any are possible.
05-18-2014 01:43 AM
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