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"The U: The Sequel"
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nole Offline
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Post: #41
RE: "The U: The Sequel"
(12-21-2014 09:56 AM)Marge Schott Wrote:  Schools like Michigan our Florida won't be down long because they have the money, facilities, infrastructure to get back to the top rather quickly. Does Miami?



Not, but neither does FSU.


The ONLY schools in the ACC with this kind of money.....refuse to compete in football. A CORE problem of the ACC. It is why the conference is weak.
12-21-2014 10:30 AM
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green Offline
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Post: #42
RE: "The U: The Sequel"
(12-21-2014 09:56 AM)Marge Schott Wrote:  Schools like Michigan our Florida won't be down long because they have the money, facilities, infrastructure to get back to the top rather quickly. Does Miami?

http://miamiherald.typepad.com/sports-bu...stove.html

I don’t see why they can’t dominate. Eighty-five percent of the programs in America would kill to change the location [to Miami] and have the weather they have in Miami. And there are more players in Florida now than when I was there, more schools on the West Coast [of the state].

If you don’t have access to players and talent, it doesn’t matter what staff you have because you’re probably not going to win. Miami has that ginormous built-in advantage of all that talent. They have a 30-year history of winning and great players. A lot of those kids lived through those generations. The reality is somebody has to recruit and have an eye for talent and somebody has to coach the [expletive] out of them.
-- Butch Davis via Miami Herald

the University of Miami sits atop the world's most valuable natural resource ...
U get the pick of the litter ...
you pick over the carcass ...
happy hunting ...

SCAVENGER
12-21-2014 02:09 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #43
RE: "The U: The Sequel"
For such a great advantage over everybody else why is it Miami has yet to win more than five games in a season in the ACC even playing in the handicapped division?
12-21-2014 02:30 PM
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green Offline
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Post: #44
RE: "The U: The Sequel"
(12-21-2014 02:30 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  For such a great advantage over everybody else why is it Miami has yet to win more than five games in a season in the ACC even playing in the handicapped division?

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2...-mcclellan

why did Lincoln fire so many generals til hitting on grant ...

HOW WARS BACKFIRE
(This post was last modified: 12-21-2014 03:01 PM by green.)
12-21-2014 03:00 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #45
RE: "The U: The Sequel"
(12-21-2014 03:00 PM)green Wrote:  
(12-21-2014 02:30 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  For such a great advantage over everybody else why is it Miami has yet to win more than five games in a season in the ACC even playing in the handicapped division?

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2...-mcclellan

why did Lincoln fire so many generals til hitting on grant ...

HOW WARS BACKFIRE

Lincoln was impatient. The military leadership always resided in the south. Has he kept McLellan, Pope, or Burnside the results would have been the same. Grant wasn't some magical elixir as his future presidency showed us. The yankees won the war because they had the manufacturing base, plain and simple.

Kinda like what you have been hyping Miami having. Miami should have every advantage with the "state of Miami" and all, yet the only times in it's history where it has won were a result of Miami committing major NCAA violations.

Hard to figure out. Well, unless you have your eyes open.
12-21-2014 09:21 PM
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Marge Schott Offline
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Post: #46
RE: "The U: The Sequel"
(12-21-2014 10:30 AM)nole Wrote:  
(12-21-2014 09:56 AM)Marge Schott Wrote:  Schools like Michigan our Florida won't be down long because they have the money, facilities, infrastructure to get back to the top rather quickly. Does Miami?

Not, but neither does FSU.


The ONLY schools in the ACC with this kind of money.....refuse to compete in football. A CORE problem of the ACC. It is why the conference is weak.

Wtf...
12-21-2014 11:35 PM
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nole Offline
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Post: #47
RE: "The U: The Sequel"
(12-21-2014 11:35 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  
(12-21-2014 10:30 AM)nole Wrote:  
(12-21-2014 09:56 AM)Marge Schott Wrote:  Schools like Michigan our Florida won't be down long because they have the money, facilities, infrastructure to get back to the top rather quickly. Does Miami?

Not, but neither does FSU.


The ONLY schools in the ACC with this kind of money.....refuse to compete in football. A CORE problem of the ACC. It is why the conference is weak.

Wtf...




??? What don't you agree with?
12-22-2014 11:23 AM
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Marge Schott Offline
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Post: #48
RE: "The U: The Sequel"
That FSU doesn't "have the money, facilities or infrastructure to get back to the top rather quickly." Clearly it does.
12-22-2014 12:58 PM
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nole Offline
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Post: #49
RE: "The U: The Sequel"
(12-22-2014 12:58 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  That FSU doesn't "have the money, facilities or infrastructure to get back to the top rather quickly." Clearly it does.



I don't think it does.


You confuse going through great times now, which clearly FSU is, and having the means to always buy it's way back in.


When you evaluate wealth in higher ed and athletics, FSU is middle of the road and CLEARLY beneath the truly elite wealthy schools.

There is no absolute equation, but it starts with things like endowment. An endowment allows for high end colleges that produce wealthy grads who give large sums of money (to both academics and athletics). FSU's endowment ranks at #150 in the nation. Far from elite or a level that assures FSU will always have the wealth needed. FSU does much better with athletic endowment, but the $60 million ish it has now is short the $200 million to full endow and does not assure future success. FSU has no major billionaire benefactor ala Maryland, Oregon, Ok state who FSU can lean on, or local corporations (ala Oregon, Louisville, etc) to keep FSU at an elite level. FSU's gift level for it's foundation rarely tops $100 Million. UF regularly tops $200 Million and the higher level schools see well above that on a regular basis. FSU's research monies are OK, but not near what an AAU level school would need and it's future positioning is weak due to COM and COE issues. None of this touches on being in the weakest P5 financial conference.

FSU gets by DESPITE money....not because of it. It is definitely not something that FSU can depend on to will it back to elite levels.


One could argue due to geographic location that FSU has enough wealth to always get back into competition......I think maybe.....but it is debatable.


You will see the ACC fall behind other P5 conferences and FSU's wealth will be tested to see if it can keep up.



But by HOW I DEFINE it, what schools have elite money to assure they can always choose to compete if they want? That list is small and involves dollar figures in the billions:

Stanford, Texas, UF, Michigan, Ohio State, Notre Dame.


Others might join that list, I think FSU has a small chance to someday, but that isn't just about wins on a football field. That means getting a full blown Med school, it's own COE, increase research dollars, getting the endowment WELL over a billion $, increase donor base by a HUGE amount, etc. Those things all contribute to schools getting to the level where they will always have the money needed to compete (which is a moving target).
12-22-2014 02:30 PM
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omniorange Offline
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Post: #50
RE: "The U: The Sequel"
Endowments by conference -

Over 2 billion -

BiG - 7
ACC - 4
PAC - 3
SEC - 2
B12 - 1

Between 1 billion and 2 billion

BiG - 5
ACC - 4
B12 - 4
SEC - 3
PAC - 2

In terms of endowments, only the BiG is a huge step above everyone else with 12 of 14 institutions a billion or above - the two not there yet are Maryland and Rutgers.

Then the ACC with 8 of 14

Then the other three with 5 of either 10, 12, or 14.

SEC is the poorest endowed of the conferences, yet is the best in football overall and it's not close.

Endowments have a place in the discussion, but they are a tertiary factor at best.

Cheers,
Neil
(This post was last modified: 12-22-2014 03:10 PM by omniorange.)
12-22-2014 03:08 PM
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nole Offline
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Post: #51
RE: "The U: The Sequel"
"Endowments have a place in the discussion, but they are tertiary at best."



Basically what I said.


I listed about 4-6 items and that was one of them.




FEW schools have the resources to always assure the revenue needed to buy themselves back to a competitive level.


FSU is NOT one of them. Miami certainly is not.



Not all schools with the elite level resources, use them to buy themselves into a competitive level of football.

UNC (2nd largest athletic endowment) is one such school.



SEC schools wealth primarily comes from being the dominating public school in their state (and thus in no danger of falling short in state support) and a similar dominance for their football program which generates huge revenue. Texas A&M has billion endowments, Ark has Tyson foods and Walmart backing it, UF has billions and HUGE state support assured/built in due to professional programs, UGA owns the state, Bama owns state, LSU owns state.


FSU is one of 12 state schools and is poorly positioned in endowment (ranked #150), state support, academic infrastructure that produces wealthy grads, etc, etc.


Not sure what, if anything, folks are disagreeing with here, but facts and reality of the situation are simple.


The loaded schools in the ACC don't choose to compete....and ones that do (or try) don't have the resources. Thankfully, FSU is a great football region, has had some luck, great coaching, and knows better than anyone how to stretch a penny. But these are all bad things for the ACC to rely on. HOPE is not a strategy.
12-22-2014 03:17 PM
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omniorange Offline
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Post: #52
RE: "The U: The Sequel"
Not to nitpick, but I will anyway, you did say 4-6 things but that it "starts with endowment" and in the earlier post, implied that those in the ACC who have such endowments are not using them for football.

So perhaps you can understand why I think what you have posted so far would have indicated you place a much higher value on endowment than I do?

Cheers,
Neil
12-22-2014 03:50 PM
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nole Offline
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Post: #53
RE: "The U: The Sequel"
(12-22-2014 03:50 PM)omniorange Wrote:  Not to nitpick, but I will anyway, you did say 4-6 things but that it "starts with endowment" and in the earlier post, implied that those in the ACC who have such endowments are not using them for football.

So perhaps you can understand why I think what you have posted so far would have indicated you place a much higher value on endowment than I do?

Cheers,
Neil


This is splitting hairs a bit, but I'll try and communicate here.

Endowments are more of a symptom that can help paint the picture of a schools wealth. Odds are that if a school has a small endowment that they are not 'wealthy' in terms of football. Bama is one such exception, but Texas, Michigan, Stanford, Notre Dame are ones that do explain that.

That ONE of 4-6 examples I pointed out (but didn't necessarily intended to list in level of importance) is not an absolutely, is one of many metrics that can help paint the full picture.


Folks often want to paint the picture in absolutes with very limited set of variables because in today's world, folks don't like to be very deep.


But again, in an attempt to get out of the weeds.......in almost every way you can look at wealth in terms of what is needed to sustain a national title level football program.....VERY few schools have the raw wealth to sustain a huge down turn for a significant period of time and have the money to buy their way back to a competitive level.


Just one area where wealth is needed, for example, is coaches salaries. Head Coaches are making $4 million plus now....asst. are at $1 million.

Miami can't compete with that....that can get lucky hire a coach who does well, but if he is too successful, these richer schools are hiring him away for lateral jobs (HC to HC).


FSU and Miami are odd examples because they are 'poor' but are in football rich areas, but as I have seen it written. Wealthier schools, in the last 10 years, have really amped up how to leverage their strengths that make it EXTREMELY difficult for less wealthy schools to complete.

Thankfully, FSU has leveraged it's strengths to the fullest and has a great coach, but what folks ignore everytime I write it......the ACC has an unstable foundation. It's wealthy schools refuse to compete and the few that do, are poor and thus success is more difficult to sustain.
12-22-2014 04:54 PM
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Marge Schott Offline
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Post: #54
RE: "The U: The Sequel"
I don't confuse anything.

FSU was very mediocre when Bowden's career ended. It hired Fisher. It built a $15M IPF. It built a new football dorm. It's rumored to be in the process of paying Jimbo $5M/year. Assistant salaries at FSU have doubled since Bowden's last year. The training table and strength programs were completely overhauled (ie, better methods, more assistants/personnel). Sports psychologists were brought in. FSU pioneered the "sports bro" in American athletics. FSU is about to convert current bleacher seating into about 6,000 high-end club seats. The football facilities received renovations (locker room, display rooms, meeting rooms, etc) and the weight room and other areas are said to be receiving upgrades as well.

FSU is NOT capable of supporting the program with the facilities, coaches and infrastructure to rise up again after a lengthy period of being down? That's what you're saying. And it's simply not true. You don't have to be the wealthiest program to show dedication and support to it.

Last year FSU athletic department revenue was $104M+. UF was $118M+. UM was $72M+. One of these is substantially lower than the others. One of these doesn't have their own stadium, has awful attendance, plays in basically a different county, doesn't pay their coaches competitive salaries or have a respected strength/nutrition program.

UM (Michigan) had revenue of $135M. That's a larger difference from Michigan to UF than UF to FSU, and the difference between Michigan and FSU is SMALLER than the difference between FSU and Miami. But hey. Whatever you say.
12-22-2014 05:01 PM
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Marge Schott Offline
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Post: #55
RE: "The U: The Sequel"
(12-22-2014 04:54 PM)nole Wrote:  
(12-22-2014 03:50 PM)omniorange Wrote:  Not to nitpick, but I will anyway, you did say 4-6 things but that it "starts with endowment" and in the earlier post, implied that those in the ACC who have such endowments are not using them for football.

So perhaps you can understand why I think what you have posted so far would have indicated you place a much higher value on endowment than I do?

Cheers,
Neil


This is splitting hairs a bit, but I'll try and communicate here.

Endowments are more of a symptom that can help paint the picture of a schools wealth. Odds are that if a school has a small endowment that they are not 'wealthy' in terms of football. Bama is one such exception, but Texas, Michigan, Stanford, Notre Dame are ones that do explain that.

That ONE of 4-6 examples I pointed out (but didn't necessarily intended to list in level of importance) is not an absolutely, is one of many metrics that can help paint the full picture.


Folks often want to paint the picture in absolutes with very limited set of variables because in today's world, folks don't like to be very deep.


But again, in an attempt to get out of the weeds.......in almost every way you can look at wealth in terms of what is needed to sustain a national title level football program.....VERY few schools have the raw wealth to sustain a huge down turn for a significant period of time and have the money to buy their way back to a competitive level.


Just one area where wealth is needed, for example, is coaches salaries. Head Coaches are making $4 million plus now....asst. are at $1 million.

Miami can't compete with that....that can get lucky hire a coach who does well, but if he is too successful, these richer schools are hiring him away for lateral jobs (HC to HC).


FSU and Miami are odd examples because they are 'poor' but are in football rich areas, but as I have seen it written. Wealthier schools, in the last 10 years, have really amped up how to leverage their strengths that make it EXTREMELY difficult for less wealthy schools to complete.

Thankfully, FSU has leveraged it's strengths to the fullest and has a great coach, but what folks ignore everytime I write it......the ACC has an unstable foundation. It's wealthy schools refuse to compete and the few that do, are poor and thus success is more difficult to sustain.





FSU is not "poor" and is nothing like Miami.
12-22-2014 05:04 PM
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nole Offline
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Post: #56
RE: "The U: The Sequel"
"I don't confuse anything."


Yea, you did......by a long shot. Don't think you are going to grasp things here.
12-22-2014 05:56 PM
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Marge Schott Offline
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Post: #57
RE: "The U: The Sequel"
Sorry dood. You classify FSU as poor and in the same class as Miami despite the actual evidence suggesting otherwise.
12-22-2014 07:08 PM
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nole Offline
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Post: #58
RE: "The U: The Sequel"
(12-22-2014 07:08 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  Sorry dood. You classify FSU as poor and in the same class as Miami despite the actual evidence suggesting otherwise.



What I stated more specifically was very "FEW" schools...maybe top 10% of the 120 some odd teams playing FBS football have elite level wealthy to always assure themselves of being able to have the resources to compete at the VERY highest level (ie national titles).

So within that concept, maybe 12ISH schools have this type of money. The other 110ISH schools are in a SIMILAR class (as in not the ELITE LEVEL of wealth), but not the same. Certainly Miami doesn't have FSU's resources....that was never claimed. But it is true that neither FSU or Miami have the resources of the elite schools. Neither have the resources to put them at that level.


This VERY recent article has the 20 'most valuable teams' and FSU wasn't in their top 20.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmith/2...eams-2014/


Just one example of my point.


Hope some day FSU can solidify it's position financially....it certainly has done an amazing job with what it has had to work with. But it does NOT have the wealth to feel comfortable like the rare elite wealthy schools have.

Going back to original point.....in the ACC, the elite wealthy schools refuse to compete in football and the few that do compete in football don't have elite resources. It is a core issue for the ACC.
12-22-2014 09:57 PM
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Marge Schott Offline
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Post: #59
RE: "The U: The Sequel"
That link is nice and all, but they say programs like Washington and Arkansas are "more valuable" than FSU...
12-22-2014 10:28 PM
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omniorange Offline
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RE: "The U: The Sequel"
(12-22-2014 09:57 PM)nole Wrote:  
(12-22-2014 07:08 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  Sorry dood. You classify FSU as poor and in the same class as Miami despite the actual evidence suggesting otherwise.



What I stated more specifically was very "FEW" schools...maybe top 10% of the 120 some odd teams playing FBS football have elite level wealthy to always assure themselves of being able to have the resources to compete at the VERY highest level (ie national titles).

So within that concept, maybe 12ISH schools have this type of money. The other 110ISH schools are in a SIMILAR class (as in not the ELITE LEVEL of wealth), but not the same. Certainly Miami doesn't have FSU's resources....that was never claimed. But it is true that neither FSU or Miami have the resources of the elite schools. Neither have the resources to put them at that level.


This VERY recent article has the 20 'most valuable teams' and FSU wasn't in their top 20.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmith/2...eams-2014/


Just one example of my point.


Hope some day FSU can solidify it's position financially....it certainly has done an amazing job with what it has had to work with. But it does NOT have the wealth to feel comfortable like the rare elite wealthy schools have.

Going back to original point.....in the ACC, the elite wealthy schools refuse to compete in football and the few that do compete in football don't have elite resources. It is a core issue for the ACC.

I wouldn't put a lot of stock into the Forbes List. They are weighing heavily two specific items from the OPE site - how much was spent on football and how much was made on football.

For Forbes #7 Tennessee that difference was just under $50 million. However on the OPE site they have additional revenue (beyond football and men's basketball) totaling $5.67 million and an additional amount of revenue not generated by sport of about $3 million. That's 8.3% of their total revenue.

For FSU the totals of those last two items (not used by Forbes) were about $33 million accounting for 31.5% of their total revenue. Had they done what Tennessee did and only assigned 8.3% of their total revenue to those two items and put the rest in football revenue, the difference between the expenses for football and the revenue generated from football the profit would have been just under $52 million.

So with profit about equal, brand takes over and FSU would likely have finished ahead of both Auburn and Tennessee. At the very least the Noles would have been in the Top 10.

Cheers,
Neil
12-22-2014 10:31 PM
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