I will turn this into a somewhat recurring item. The idea here is to make clear to those who entrust government with power to beware what happens when the heady mix of government good intentions, unaccountability, and absolute power go off the rails.

"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche



This thread is for the Allied bombing of Dresden. The firebombing of Dresden, a huge art and cultural center, was of minor importance. It had ammunition and communication installations. But it also had hundreds of thousands of civilians and refugees. It was bombed at the end of the war in 1945 after victory was well in hand. The resulting firestorm from the bombing and subsequent firebombing of Dresden was devastating. Estimated causalities were over 20,000 but may be as high as 100,000. The fire produced its own weather system, with gale force winds sucking into the fire core from the city outskirts. Reports of people actually being sucked into the fire were common. The fire was well over 1,500 C and melted steel and asphalt.

That's amazing. Great find.

It was pushed by the British they were even horrified at the amount of death and destruction.

Sad history. Great band name.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorry_About_Dresden

(06-04-2014 12:26 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  I will turn this into a somewhat recurring item. The idea here is to make clear to those who entrust government with power to beware what happens when the heady mix of government good intentions, unaccountability, and absolute power go off the rails.

"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche



This thread is for the Allied bombing of Dresden. The firebombing of Dresden, a huge art and cultural center, was of minor importance. It had ammunition and communication installations. But it also had hundreds of thousands of civilians refugees. It was bombed at the end of the war in 1945 after victory was well in hand. The resulting firestorm from the bombing and subsequent firebombing of Dresden was the most intense and deadliest fire on record. Estimated causalities were over 20,000 but may be as high as 100,000. The fire produced its own weather system, with gale force winds sucking into the fire core from the city outskirts. Reports of people actually being sucked into the fire were common. The fire was well over 1,500 C and melted steel and asphalt.

I agree entirely with the bolded statement as well as Nietzsche's quote. But I'm going to defend the bombing of Dresden and area bombing in general as a legitimate tenet of total warfare. Restraint in use of such tactics is predicated on reciprocity. This was achieved with the restrictions on Chemical Warfare by all sides. But it was Germany who put area bombing as a tactical option on the table.

Everyone like to armchair QB this thing (along with the use of the Atomic Bomb) by stating that the outcome was already decided and all the Allies needed to do was wait the enemy out. That kind of mentality led to a little skirmish known as the Battle of the Bulge. After enduring that counteroffensive, any presumptions of the war being over before reaching Berlin were thrown out the window by the Western Allies.

Marshall, like Sherman before him and Ho Chi Minh after, knew that if you want a war to truly end, you have to affect the citizenry. Elected officials and military leaders typically have too much pride wrapped up state engagements to acknowledge a lost cause.

Was totally not necessary. Always thought Air Marshall Bomber Harris
was the chief cause of such a massive raid. He saw action in WWI and
seemed to want retribution for England for earlier German bombing.

Operation Keelhaul was far worse.

Nanjing Massacre.

Wounded Knee massacre

Hell, our non-nuclear firebombing in Japan killed a lot more people than anything we did in Germany. Plus Dresden was mostly a British operation.

(06-04-2014 09:32 PM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  Operation Keelhaul was far worse.

(06-05-2014 06:05 AM)AngryAphid Wrote:  Nanjing Massacre.

(06-05-2014 11:57 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Wounded Knee massacre

(06-05-2014 01:43 PM)49RFootballNow Wrote:  Hell, our non-nuclear firebombing in Japan killed a lot more people than anything we did in Germany. Plus Dresden was mostly a British operation.

This series will have many more posts to come.

All you need to do is study history. Hundreds of examples will leap off the pages.

I think anyone that argues that Dresden or the atomic bombs should remember we had to drop two to get them to surrender. I think that tells you everything you need to know. Japanese pilots were flying their plans into allied ships after their navy was gone. Bonzie attacks were increasingly common. You don't think without those horrific displays of power that we could have just walked in do you? Negative. Totally justified for people that supported those regimes.

(06-05-2014 09:37 PM)stAtecamera13 Wrote:  I think anyone that argues that Dresden or the atomic bombs should remember we had to drop two to get them to surrender. I think that tells you everything you need to know. Japanese pilots were flying their plans into allied ships after their navy was gone. Bonzie attacks were increasingly common. You don't think without those horrific displays of power that we could have just walked in do you? Negative. Totally justified for people that supported those regimes.

I get that argument for the atomic bombs.

Now how is Dresden relevant to that?

(06-05-2014 10:33 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(06-05-2014 09:37 PM)stAtecamera13 Wrote:  I think anyone that argues that Dresden or the atomic bombs should remember we had to drop two to get them to surrender. I think that tells you everything you need to know. Japanese pilots were flying their plans into allied ships after their navy was gone. Bonzie attacks were increasingly common. You don't think without those horrific displays of power that we could have just walked in do you? Negative. Totally justified for people that supported those regimes.

I get that argument for the atomic bombs.

Now how is Dresden relevant to that?

Because hitler ordered a fight to the last man the same as the emperor did. Only difference is that Japanese were serious about it. That and I don't think the British expected the carnage that ensued.

Japan is a totally different argument. Think of the timing,
February 1945. Thousands of Germans were surrendering.
They had little to hold back the western allies after the Battle
of the Bulge. Was like using a big hammer just because you
have it. The Russians actually pushed for the bombing of Dresden
because of it's location, but always thought the British over
emphasized their request.

(06-05-2014 10:37 PM)stAtecamera13 Wrote:  Because hitler ordered a fight to the last man the same as the emperor did.

He was also moving around imaginary divisions in his bunker at that point too.

Germany was no Japan.

(06-06-2014 12:39 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(06-05-2014 10:37 PM)stAtecamera13 Wrote:  Because hitler ordered a fight to the last man the same as the emperor did.

He was also moving around imaginary divisions in his bunker at that point too.

Germany was no Japan.

While that is true, nothing ends a war faster than bringing the cost of war to the agressors people. I don't remember who but someone said about ww1 that "if the public really knew what was going on the war would be over in a week" or something along those lines. I'm not saying it was right, but it worked.