(07-28-2014 12:22 PM)Brokeback Flamer Wrote:  

(07-28-2014 12:07 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  The drones I said was to take out missile batteries. I would think those are towed behind a vehicle of some sort. If the rockets are fired from a building then yes it would be a legitimate target. Unfortunately I don't believe that this is the case.

Just to clarify, you are talking about just this one building, not the 100's of others that have been destroyed?
Secondly, you don't feel targeting an enemy combatant or the people giving them aide and comfort are legitimate targets?

Yea, some reason he won't touch this one.

Pointed out above, that's some dangerous ish to be fooling around with.

(07-28-2014 09:18 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Did you read the article? This was not a machine gun nest or a storage depot. They targeted a Hamas leader. Taking out other families didn't concern them.
THAT"S WRONG.

No, it isn't. If that's what you have to do to get him, then that's what you have to do to get him.

I realize that may offend some American sensitivities. We need to get over that.

Yes, I am talking about this building and any building going forward. I'm saying in this occasion and every other occasion going forward you should not target any building with innocent civilians in them ESPECIALLY CHILDREN. I do realize that Hamas will hide behind them. You will have to use other legitimate means. I know they have gotten to people with C4 in their cell phones. You can target people without significant collateral damage. That we have over 900 innocent Palestinians should speak for itself. You WOULD think that would be common sense. It's obviously not.

My political adversaries on here obviously have escaped the fact that I have said Hamas does not escape criticism either. The best thing they could do is turn over all of their weapons. They can not win in that battlefield.

(07-28-2014 12:37 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Yes, I am talking about this building and any building going forward. I'm saying in this occasion and every other occasion going forward you should not target any building with innocent civilians in them ESPECIALLY CHILDREN. I do realize that Hamas will hide behind them. You will have to use other legitimate means. I know they have gotten to people with C4 in their cell phones. You can target people without significant collateral damage. That we have over 900 innocent Palestinians should speak for itself. You WOULD think that would be common sense. It's obviously not.

My political adversaries on here obviously have escaped the fact that I have said Hamas does not escape criticism either. The best thing they could do is turn over all of their weapons. They can not win in that battlefield.

Any of these 900 "innocent civilians" hanging out and breaking bread with these Hamas terrorists? Feeding them? Harboring them?

What reliable, non-bias source do you have to establish this claim of "innocence?

(07-28-2014 12:37 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Yes, I am talking about this building and any building going forward. I'm saying in this occasion and every other occasion going forward you should not target any building with innocent civilians in them ESPECIALLY CHILDREN. I do realize that Hamas will hide behind them. You will have to use other legitimate means. I know they have gotten to people with C4 in their cell phones. You can target people without significant collateral damage. That we have over 900 innocent Palestinians should speak for itself. You WOULD think that would be common sense. It's obviously not.

No, it isn't common sense. It absolutely isn't. Number one, that the 900 Palestinians were "innocent" is an assumption on your part, without support as far as I know. Number two, you cannot prosecute a war by avoiding any building with civilians, nor does international law require that you do so. Number three, when Hamas is hiding behind civilians, targeting them IS a legitimate action. Mach, you're applying standards that are inappropriate in the situation. It's why I've asked you several times whether you have served in combat. Combat is a different world, and people who have not been there simply don't understand just how different.

Bottom line. The US has fought wars in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan using the rules of engagement that you would impose. How have those wars turned out? Proportionality does not work in asymmetric warfare. I would argue that proportionality in asymmetric warfare is actually a violation of international law. Why? Simple. The "just war" concept upon which much of the Geneva Conventions rest requires that a successful outcome must be reasonably possible before entering a war. Proportionality makes a successful outcome impossible, because it guarantees quagmire and stalemate. It's one thing for the US to fight a stalemate thousands of miles away in Vietnam or Iraq or Afghanistan. It's quite a different thing for Israel to fight a stalemate in Gaza.

Quote:My political adversaries on here obviously have escaped the fact that I have said Hamas does not escape criticism either. The best thing they could do is turn over all of their weapons. They can not win in that battlefield.

They are not going to do that ever. Their goal is not getting the best deal for the Palestinians, but prolonging the conflict with Israel for their Iranian masters. They don't want it to end. So the only option is to make the price of continuing it too high for them.

(07-28-2014 12:49 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-28-2014 12:37 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Yes, I am talking about this building and any building going forward. I'm saying in this occasion and every other occasion going forward you should not target any building with innocent civilians in them ESPECIALLY CHILDREN. I do realize that Hamas will hide behind them. You will have to use other legitimate means. I know they have gotten to people with C4 in their cell phones. You can target people without significant collateral damage. That we have over 900 innocent Palestinians should speak for itself. You WOULD think that would be common sense. It's obviously not.

No, it isn't common sense. It absolutely isn't. Number one, that the 900 Palestinians were "innocent" is an assumption on your part, without support as far as I know. Number two, you cannot prosecute a war by avoiding any building with civilians, nor does international law require that you do so. Number three, when Hamas is hiding behind civilians, targeting them IS a legitimate action. Mach, you're applying standards that are inappropriate in the situation. It's why I've asked you several times whether you have served in combat. Combat is a different world, and people who have not been there simply don't understand just how different.

Bottom line. The US has fought wars in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan using the rules of engagement that you would impose. How have those wars turned out? Proportionality does not work in asymmetric warfare. I would argue that proportionality in asymmetric warfare is actually a violation of international law. Why? Simple. The "just war" concept upon which much of the Geneva Conventions rest requires that a successful outcome must be reasonably possible before entering a war. Proportionality makes a successful outcome impossible, because it guarantees quagmire and stalemate. It's one thing for the US to fight a stalemate thousands of miles away in Vietnam or Iraq or Afghanistan. It's quite a different thing for Israel to fight a stalemate in Gaza.

Quote:My political adversaries on here obviously have escaped the fact that I have said Hamas does not escape criticism either. The best thing they could do is turn over all of their weapons. They can not win in that battlefield.

They are not going to do that ever. Their goal is not getting the best deal for the Palestinians, but prolonging the conflict with Israel. They don't want it to end. So the only option is to make the price of continuing it too high for them.

All the while the worlds eyes and energies are focused on this Hatfields and McCoys, relatively speaking, the better for Iran. We aren't talking about their Nuke program, and they are doing a pretty good job keeping Israel preoccupied.

(07-28-2014 12:37 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Yes, I am talking about this building and any building going forward. I'm saying in this occasion and every other occasion going forward you should not target any building with innocent civilians in them ESPECIALLY CHILDREN. I do realize that Hamas will hide behind them. You will have to use other legitimate means. I know they have gotten to people with C4 in their cell phones. You can target people without significant collateral damage. That we have over 900 innocent Palestinians should speak for itself. You WOULD think that would be common sense. It's obviously not.

My political adversaries on here obviously have escaped the fact that I have said Hamas does not escape criticism either. The best thing they could do is turn over all of their weapons. They can not win in that battlefield.

What other legitimate means are you referring too? This isn't a video games where collateral damaged can be butterflied away, Hamas actively put civilians in harms way because it works. You've advocating that Israel essentially stay on the defensive because to attack puts Israel in a more quagmire. That is a losing proposition for Israel since not retaliating won't stop Hamas and won't engender international assistance.

(07-28-2014 01:00 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  What other legitimate means are you referring too? This isn't a video games where collateral damaged can be butterflied away, Hamas actively put civilians in harms way because it works. You've advocating that Israel essentially stay on the defensive because to attack puts Israel in a more quagmire. That is a losing proposition for Israel since not retaliating won't stop Hamas and won't engender international assistance.

I don't think Mach understands the differences between video games, law enforcement, and war. He's wanting answers that simply are not possible. Hamas has no interest in stopping until Israel makes the price of continuing too high. That's the only way to end this.

You know we have all used the words quagmire and hellhole and it's absolutely correct. The situation is untenable on so many fronts. That I have invested as much time in this thread as I have is the very definition of insanity. That I have become sympathetic to one side won't make a microscopic change in what happens over there. I am an observer. I'm bowing out of this thread unless something drastic happens over there. I'm going to enjoy the summer. A beautiful 74 degree day outside and blue skies. WTF is the matter with me? So much better ways to spend my day. You guys take care. I wish you all well. Even the yahoos who take the cheap shots!!!

(07-28-2014 12:37 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  I know they have gotten to people with C4 in their cell phones.

Let's just let this one sink in.

(07-28-2014 01:20 PM)jh Wrote:  

(07-28-2014 12:37 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  I know they have gotten to people with C4 in their cell phones.

Let's just let this one sink in.

yea, was thinking about that as well. Hope little Aalia doesn't get a hold of daddy's phone when the "different" ring comes this time!

I want to leave. Didn't want to check back but I did. Oh well....what they did was to make sure the target they wanted was on the cell then they set it off. Cell phones were a great device. You could id the guy and kill him at the same time.

(07-28-2014 01:45 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  I want to leave. Didn't want to check back but I did. Oh well....what they did was to make sure the target they wanted was on the cell then they set it off. Cell phones were a great device. You could id the guy and kill him at the same time.

You should leave. You certainly aren't helping yourself here. Go outside and enjoy the day. Perhaps you could ruminate about the practicalities of using cell phones to assassinate large numbers of people while minimizing collateral damage. I would suggest happier topics, but perhaps then you would understand why people are having a hard time taking your positions seriously.

(07-28-2014 01:45 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  I want to leave. Didn't want to check back but I did. Oh well....what they did was to make sure the target they wanted was on the cell then they set it off. Cell phones were a great device. You could id the guy and kill him at the same time.

You're out of your depth here. You're trying to make points that seem sensible to you, and would be in certain contexts, but they ignore the realities of this specific situation.

(07-28-2014 12:37 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  That we have over 900 innocent Palestinians should speak for itself. You WOULD think that would be common sense. It's obviously not.

As I have stated and request before, that number is likely absolute BS, derived from nothing more than HAMAS propaganda. I posted something early on that had data tied to names, and projected to demonstrate that between 50-75% of the dead were HAMAS or other militants, depending on how generous you were in interpreting the data. I have not seen anyone post anything other than articles derived from "the UN estimated that 70% were civilians". No actual quote of the UN statement itself or where it got its data.

edit: Those that complain about repeating propaganda should take note here.

(07-28-2014 03:07 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(07-28-2014 12:37 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  That we have over 900 innocent Palestinians should speak for itself. You WOULD think that would be common sense. It's obviously not.

As I have stated and request before, that number is likely absolute BS, derived from nothing more than HAMAS propaganda. I posted something early on that had data tied to names, and projected to demonstrate that between 50-75% of the dead were HAMAS or other militants, depending on how generous you were in interpreting the data. I have not seen anyone post anything other than articles derived from "the UN estimated that 70% were civilians". No actual quote of the UN statement itself or where it got its data.

edit: Those that complain about repeating propaganda should take note here.

I strongly suspect that both the 900 and the innocent are quite badly wrong. And if it actually were 900 and innocent, that would not be indicative of war crimes or malfeasance on Israel's part. What is crystal clear as a matter of international law is that Hamas's and the Palestinians's use of human shields is a major violation. That's the one clear-cut and unequivocal violation so far.

here's a new one for you... were videos EDITED to make it seem as though Israel didn't give warning?

from The Blaze

And they make a good argument, particularly if you look at the shadow in the lower left in paritcular.

(07-28-2014 01:23 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(07-28-2014 01:20 PM)jh Wrote:  

(07-28-2014 12:37 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  I know they have gotten to people with C4 in their cell phones.

Let's just let this one sink in.

yea, was thinking about that as well. Hope little Aalia doesn't get a hold of daddy's phone when the "different" ring comes this time!

It's actually a great story.
http://www.amazon.com/Hunt-Engineer-Isra...0756754429

Here is another
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/...23096.html

These are ingenious ways to eliminate specific targets. However, it can not be used in a case as this. The 2 main reason being finding someone close enough to the target willing to switch the phone (and then promptly relocate) and the time it takes to coordinate the strike.
The Mossad is rather clever. If it is now public knowledge that Mossad operates this way you can't even imagine what they use now.

(07-28-2014 03:40 PM)DaSaintFan Wrote:  here's a new one for you... were videos EDITED to make it seem as though Israel didn't give warning?

from The Blaze

And they make a good argument, particularly if you look at the shadow in the lower left in paritcular.

Demonstrativly propaganda. It's like campaign propaganda, they throw everything against the wall to see what sticks. Does anyone see Israel resorting to such propaganda tactics? No. Hamas is winning the PR war and the US regime is being the feckless idiot, falling for the PR propaganda.

Kerry promotes it.

(07-28-2014 01:05 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Israel has no interest in stopping until Hamas makes the price of continuing too high. That's the only way to end this.

FIFY