(07-27-2014 10:24 AM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  

(07-27-2014 06:44 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(07-26-2014 02:43 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  

(07-22-2014 08:02 PM)nole Wrote:  

(07-22-2014 02:30 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  Really? I would think WINNING is all that matters.

Nick Saban at Bama makes $6 million a year (approx.)

Coach K at Duke makes $6 million a year (approx.)



Those wins....they cost money. Without revenue akin to other power 5 conferences......the ACC will struggle to keep their coaches who do win.


Everyone understands that....lets not pretend we don't.


Thankfully.....ACC revenue is fine...for now. The Conference Networks at SEC and B1G might change everything. Hope Swofford and his son have a plan.

Nole, what you seem to be suggesting is that money buys wins. Does it? http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/InstList.aspx

Using the above data based the schools report to the US Department of ED what they spent on football and this is their per win amount they spent in the fall of 2012:

Auburn $12 million a win - $36 million total - 3 wins
Iowa $5.25 million a win - $21 million total - 4 wins
Miami $3.4 million a win - $24 million total - 7 wins
Duke $3.16 million a win - $19 million total - 6 wins
Alabama $3.15 million a win - $41 million total - 13 wins
Tennessee $3.0 million a win - $27 million total - 9 wins
Michigan $2.87 million a win - $23 million total - 8 wins
Michigan State $2.85 million a win - $20 million total - 7 wins
NC State $2.57 million a win - $18 million total - 7 wins
Baylor $2.5 million a win - $20 million total - 8 wins
Iowa State $2.5 million a win - $15 million total - 6 wins
Florida $2.3 million a win - $26 million total - 11 wins
South Carolina $2.27 a win - $25 million total - 11 wins
UNC - 2.0 million a win - $16 million total - 8 wins
FSU - 1.9 million a win - $23 million total - 12 wins
Clemson - 1.81 million a win - $20 million total - 11 wins
TAMU - 1.63 million a win - $18 million total - 11 wins


Other than Alabama and Auburn - the spending on the football programs range between $15 and $27 million. Auburn spent $36 million for it's worst season in modern history and Bama spent $41 million for a BCS championship. $5 million separated their spending.

The really big head coaching salaries come after the results on the field, not prior to the result - essentially Saban and K are getting defacto bonuses. The players still have to play the game.

A great QB, and a great defense is needed to win 10 or more games.

Here's that cohort with 2013 results (spending not available)

Auburn $12 million a win - $36 million total - 3 wins - 12 wins
Iowa $5.25 million a win - $21 million total - 4 wins - 8 wins
Miami $3.4 million a win - $24 million total - 7 wins - 9 wins
Duke $3.16 million a win - $19 million total - 6 wins - 10 wins
Alabama $3.15 million a win - $41 million total - 13 wins 11 wins
Tennessee $3.0 million a win - $27 million total - 9 wins - 8 wins
Michigan $2.87 million a win - $23 million total - 8 wins - 7 wins
Michigan State $2.85 million a win - $20 million total - 7 wins 13 wins
NC State $2.57 million a win - $18 million total - 7 wins - 3 wins
Baylor $2.5 million a win - $20 million total - 8 wins - 11 wins
Iowa State $2.5 million a win - $15 million total - 6 wins - 3 wins
Florida $2.3 million a win - $26 million total - 11 wins - 4 wins
South Carolina $2.27 a win - $25 million total - 11 wins - 11 wins
UNC - 2.0 million a win - $16 million total - 8 wins - 7 wins
FSU - 1.9 million a win - $23 million total - 12 wins - 14 wins
Clemson - 1.81 million a win - $20 million total - 11 wins - 11 wins
TAMU - 1.63 million a win - $18 million total - 11 wins

Money is important, but money simply can't buy wins. It takes more than money.

Moreover, the cost of competing in your conference is the first obstacle you face. What does it cost to make it to your championship game in the B10, versus the SEC, versus the ACC? I think we can all agree that the cost of competition is highest in the SEC and probably lowest in the ACC.

Then the issue becomes what do you do on the field when you meet a team from outside your conference - is the money edge of that much value in such meetings? FSU and Clemson and MSU seem to indicate that the answer is no.

Perhaps the reality of the money is a two tier game:

1. You need a certain base amount to compete in your conference then,
2. You need a certain extra amount to compete for the top of your conference
3. Once you finally mix with the other top 10 on the field for one game, the extra money seems to have a diminishing return.

Those 2012 finances for Clemson are amazing considering 2012 was when we built our $10 million practice facility.

Oh yeah....that isn't those numbers for football.

Neither are coach's salaries.

Neither are recruiting expenses.

Neither are other facility upgrades for the football program.


Now when you look at those numbers provided the only thing that comes to mind is this:

Quote:There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics

Mark Twain

Baloney - you need to argue with the folks at Clemson who supplied the information to the feds. Unless you are claiming that Clemson lied to the feds: http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/InstDetails....353120414d :

I thought Clemson stopped lying when Danny Ford was forced out. Am I wrong?



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Search Criteria•Institution name: 'Clemson'

Clemson University Unit ID: 217882
General Information Athletic Department Information

201 Sikes Hall
Clemson, SC 29634
Phone: 864-656-4636

Number of Full-time Undergraduates: 15,570
Men: 8,298
Women: 7,272 Director: Dan Radakovich
PO BOX 31
MCFADDEN BUILDING
CLEMSON, SC 29633-0031

Reporting Year: 7/1/2012 - 6/30/2013
Reporting Official: Graham Neff
Title: Associate Athletic Director
Phone: 864-656-0128
Sanctioning Body: NCAA Division I-A

Participants | Coaching Staff and Salaries | Revenues and Expenses | Supplemental Info

Athletically Related Student Aid
Men's Teams Women's Teams Total
Total $5,794,789 $4,259,507 $10,054,296
Ratio (percent) 58 42 100%
CAVEAT


Recruiting Expenses
Men's Teams Women's Teams Total
Total $967,824 $317,172 $1,284,996
CAVEAT


Operating (Game-Day) Expenses by Team
Men's Teams Women's Teams
Varsity Teams Participants Operating Expenses per Participant By Team Participants Operating Expenses per Participant By Team Total Operating Expenses
Basketball 14 $59,597 $834,361 14 $44,821 $627,494 $1,461,855
Football 115 $42,914 $4,935,053 $4,935,053
Baseball 32 $13,527 $432,863 $432,863
All Track Combined 93 $2,742 $254,984 100 $3,158 $315,765 $570,749
Diving 12 $4,912 $58,938 $58,938
Golf 10 $5,758 $57,575 $57,575
Rowing 76 $2,186 $166,099 $166,099
Soccer 28 $4,094 $114,642 21 $4,218 $88,584 $203,226
Tennis 7 $16,526 $115,681 6 $17,503 $105,015 $220,696
Volleyball 14 $10,003 $140,035 $140,035
Total Operating Expenses Men's and Women's Teams 299 $6,745,159 243 $1,501,930 $8,247,089
CAVEAT


Total Expenses by Team
Varsity Teams Men's Teams Women's Teams Total
Basketball $4,373,940 $2,619,645 $6,993,585
Football $19,969,497 $19,969,497
Total Expenses of all Sports, Except Football and Basketball, Combined $5,727,830 $6,908,817 $12,636,647
Total Expenses Men's and Women's Teams $30,071,267 $9,528,462 $39,599,729
Not Allocated by Gender/Sport $25,861,595
Grand Total Expenses $65,461,324
CAVEAT


Total Revenues by Team
Varsity Teams Men's Teams Women's Teams Total
Basketball $6,245,295 $680,011 $6,925,306
Football $41,273,517 $41,273,517
Total Revenues of all Sports, Except Football and Basketball, Combined $2,536,795 $3,664,553 $6,201,348
Total Revenues Men's and Women's Teams $50,055,607 $4,344,564 $54,400,171
Not Allocated by Gender/Sport $13,763,777
Grand Total for all Teams (includes by team and not allocated by gender/sport) $68,163,948
CAVEAT


Revenues and Expenses Summary

Men's Teams Women's Teams Total
1 Total of Head Coaches' Salaries $4,341,295 $681,079 $5,022,374
2 Total of Assistant Coaches' Salaries $5,192,110 $838,680 $6,030,790
3 Total Salaries (Lines 1+2) $9,533,405 $1,519,759 $11,053,164
4 Athletically Related Student Aid $5,794,789 $4,259,507 $10,054,296
5 Recruiting Expenses $967,824 $317,172 $1,284,996
6 Operating (Game-Day) Expenses $6,745,159 $1,501,930 $8,247,089
7 Summary of Subset Expenses (Lines 3+4+5+6) $23,041,177 $7,598,368 $30,639,545
8 Total Expenses for Teams $30,071,267 $9,528,462 $39,599,729
9 Total Expenses for Teams Minus Subset Expenses (Line 8 – Line 7) $7,030,090 $1,930,094 $8,960,184
10 Not Allocated Expenses $25,861,595
11 Grand Total Expenses (Lines 8+10) $65,461,324
12 Total Revenues for Teams $50,055,607 $4,344,564 $54,400,171
13 Not Allocated Revenues $13,763,777
14 Grand Total Revenues (Lines 12+13) $68,163,948
15 Total Revenues for Teams minus Total Expenses for Teams (Line 12-Line 8) $19,984,340 -$5,183,898 $14,800,442
16 Grand Total Revenues Minus Grand Total Expenses (Line 14- Line 11)

How it's reported is related to how the school classifies each category, and no two school does their accounting the same.

Oh BTW....the EADA report doesn't count the money that IPTAY spends on athletics every year since technically IPTAY is not a part of Clemson University.

In 2012 IPTAY spent money on items like new lights for Death Valley (along with Riggs Field it cost IPTAY $568k), $1,116,000 for new bleachers in the lower bowl of Death Valley, $1.6 million on practice facility needs and enhancements, and $400k on the training table/dining facility in the West Zone. It also annually contributes around $2 million towards the operation of Vickery Hall. None of that is covered in your "report", which is about as useful as something like this:

Quote:I'm going to list all the schools that I think can get the votes to get into the ACC. Not that I like them or that it will happen.

The ACC presidents will not invite a school with an open enrollement component in their undergraduate mission. That means no WVu, no Kentucky, no Louisville, (notice how those schools are clustered in the upper Appalachian/Ohio River/ Coal Belt. Syracuse is not liked by some of the schools and may have blackballed NCSU at the 2001 AAU vote - I don't know that for certain. FSU and Miami will not vote for other Florida schools and GT and Clemson will back them - UNC, Uva and Duke as well.

That leaves:

Notre Dame (Most money, but the ACC has to accept a modified football schedual 7 games)
Pittsburg (As I gleen, all the Presidents and Chancellors second choice)
UConn (We are over the litigation and their Attorney General)
Rutgers (A nose holder due to being in New Jersey)
Army (Well respected, not a first choice)
Navy (Well resepected, not a first choice)
Cincinatti (Well respected, not a first choice - someting must be done to Nippert Stadium)
SUNY -Stony Brook (A project for the entire league, but it might bring NYC)
Missouri - Only if the Big XII falls apart
Kansas - Only if the Big XII falls apart
Vandy - The only SEC school that 4 ACC schools do not have a full reason to hate or despise
Indiana - The only Big 10 school that 4 ACC schools do not have a reason to hate or despise
Toronto - (Well respected, but a tertiary option)
McGill - ( See above)
Dailhousie - (See above)

The odds favor the ACC staying at 12, even if we expand we are likely to stay at 14.

Baloney - No one is reporting their debt service in the annual operations expense line item. However I can understand that Clemson would might misreport to the EADA, just like you have misreported your SAT scores in the past.



How it's reported is related to how the school classifies each category, and no two school does their accounting the same.

Oh BTW....the EADA report doesn't count the money that IPTAY spends on athletics every year since technically IPTAY is not a part of Clemson University.

In 2012 IPTAY spent money on items like new lights for Death Valley (along with Riggs Field it cost IPTAY $568k), $1,116,000 for new bleachers in the lower bowl of Death Valley, $1.6 million on practice facility needs and enhancements, and $400k on the training table/dining facility in the West Zone. It also annually contributes around $2 million towards the operation of Vickery Hall. None of that is covered in your "report", which is about as useful as something like this:

(07-27-2014 10:57 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(07-27-2014 10:24 AM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  

(07-27-2014 06:44 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(07-26-2014 02:43 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  

(07-22-2014 08:02 PM)nole Wrote:  Nick Saban at Bama makes $6 million a year (approx.)

Coach K at Duke makes $6 million a year (approx.)



Those wins....they cost money. Without revenue akin to other power 5 conferences......the ACC will struggle to keep their coaches who do win.


Everyone understands that....lets not pretend we don't.


Thankfully.....ACC revenue is fine...for now. The Conference Networks at SEC and B1G might change everything. Hope Swofford and his son have a plan.

Nole, what you seem to be suggesting is that money buys wins. Does it? http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/InstList.aspx

Using the above data based the schools report to the US Department of ED what they spent on football and this is their per win amount they spent in the fall of 2012:

Auburn $12 million a win - $36 million total - 3 wins
Iowa $5.25 million a win - $21 million total - 4 wins
Miami $3.4 million a win - $24 million total - 7 wins
Duke $3.16 million a win - $19 million total - 6 wins
Alabama $3.15 million a win - $41 million total - 13 wins
Tennessee $3.0 million a win - $27 million total - 9 wins
Michigan $2.87 million a win - $23 million total - 8 wins
Michigan State $2.85 million a win - $20 million total - 7 wins
NC State $2.57 million a win - $18 million total - 7 wins
Baylor $2.5 million a win - $20 million total - 8 wins
Iowa State $2.5 million a win - $15 million total - 6 wins
Florida $2.3 million a win - $26 million total - 11 wins
South Carolina $2.27 a win - $25 million total - 11 wins
UNC - 2.0 million a win - $16 million total - 8 wins
FSU - 1.9 million a win - $23 million total - 12 wins
Clemson - 1.81 million a win - $20 million total - 11 wins
TAMU - 1.63 million a win - $18 million total - 11 wins


Other than Alabama and Auburn - the spending on the football programs range between $15 and $27 million. Auburn spent $36 million for it's worst season in modern history and Bama spent $41 million for a BCS championship. $5 million separated their spending.

The really big head coaching salaries come after the results on the field, not prior to the result - essentially Saban and K are getting defacto bonuses. The players still have to play the game.

A great QB, and a great defense is needed to win 10 or more games.

Here's that cohort with 2013 results (spending not available)

Auburn $12 million a win - $36 million total - 3 wins - 12 wins
Iowa $5.25 million a win - $21 million total - 4 wins - 8 wins
Miami $3.4 million a win - $24 million total - 7 wins - 9 wins
Duke $3.16 million a win - $19 million total - 6 wins - 10 wins
Alabama $3.15 million a win - $41 million total - 13 wins 11 wins
Tennessee $3.0 million a win - $27 million total - 9 wins - 8 wins
Michigan $2.87 million a win - $23 million total - 8 wins - 7 wins
Michigan State $2.85 million a win - $20 million total - 7 wins 13 wins
NC State $2.57 million a win - $18 million total - 7 wins - 3 wins
Baylor $2.5 million a win - $20 million total - 8 wins - 11 wins
Iowa State $2.5 million a win - $15 million total - 6 wins - 3 wins
Florida $2.3 million a win - $26 million total - 11 wins - 4 wins
South Carolina $2.27 a win - $25 million total - 11 wins - 11 wins
UNC - 2.0 million a win - $16 million total - 8 wins - 7 wins
FSU - 1.9 million a win - $23 million total - 12 wins - 14 wins
Clemson - 1.81 million a win - $20 million total - 11 wins - 11 wins
TAMU - 1.63 million a win - $18 million total - 11 wins

Money is important, but money simply can't buy wins. It takes more than money.

Moreover, the cost of competing in your conference is the first obstacle you face. What does it cost to make it to your championship game in the B10, versus the SEC, versus the ACC? I think we can all agree that the cost of competition is highest in the SEC and probably lowest in the ACC.

Then the issue becomes what do you do on the field when you meet a team from outside your conference - is the money edge of that much value in such meetings? FSU and Clemson and MSU seem to indicate that the answer is no.

Perhaps the reality of the money is a two tier game:

1. You need a certain base amount to compete in your conference then,
2. You need a certain extra amount to compete for the top of your conference
3. Once you finally mix with the other top 10 on the field for one game, the extra money seems to have a diminishing return.

Those 2012 finances for Clemson are amazing considering 2012 was when we built our $10 million practice facility.

Oh yeah....that isn't those numbers for football.

Neither are coach's salaries.

Neither are recruiting expenses.

Neither are other facility upgrades for the football program.


Now when you look at those numbers provided the only thing that comes to mind is this:

Quote:There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics

Mark Twain

Baloney - you need to argue with the folks at Clemson who supplied the information to the feds. Unless you are claiming that Clemson lied to the feds: http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/InstDetails....353120414d :

I thought Clemson stopped lying when Danny Ford was forced out. Am I wrong?



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Search Criteria•Institution name: 'Clemson'

Clemson University Unit ID: 217882
General Information Athletic Department Information

201 Sikes Hall
Clemson, SC 29634
Phone: 864-656-4636

Number of Full-time Undergraduates: 15,570
Men: 8,298
Women: 7,272 Director: Dan Radakovich
PO BOX 31
MCFADDEN BUILDING
CLEMSON, SC 29633-0031

Reporting Year: 7/1/2012 - 6/30/2013
Reporting Official: Graham Neff
Title: Associate Athletic Director
Phone: 864-656-0128
Sanctioning Body: NCAA Division I-A

Participants | Coaching Staff and Salaries | Revenues and Expenses | Supplemental Info

Athletically Related Student Aid
Men's Teams Women's Teams Total
Total $5,794,789 $4,259,507 $10,054,296
Ratio (percent) 58 42 100%
CAVEAT


Recruiting Expenses
Men's Teams Women's Teams Total
Total $967,824 $317,172 $1,284,996
CAVEAT


Operating (Game-Day) Expenses by Team
Men's Teams Women's Teams
Varsity Teams Participants Operating Expenses per Participant By Team Participants Operating Expenses per Participant By Team Total Operating Expenses
Basketball 14 $59,597 $834,361 14 $44,821 $627,494 $1,461,855
Football 115 $42,914 $4,935,053 $4,935,053
Baseball 32 $13,527 $432,863 $432,863
All Track Combined 93 $2,742 $254,984 100 $3,158 $315,765 $570,749
Diving 12 $4,912 $58,938 $58,938
Golf 10 $5,758 $57,575 $57,575
Rowing 76 $2,186 $166,099 $166,099
Soccer 28 $4,094 $114,642 21 $4,218 $88,584 $203,226
Tennis 7 $16,526 $115,681 6 $17,503 $105,015 $220,696
Volleyball 14 $10,003 $140,035 $140,035
Total Operating Expenses Men's and Women's Teams 299 $6,745,159 243 $1,501,930 $8,247,089
CAVEAT


Total Expenses by Team
Varsity Teams Men's Teams Women's Teams Total
Basketball $4,373,940 $2,619,645 $6,993,585
Football $19,969,497 $19,969,497
Total Expenses of all Sports, Except Football and Basketball, Combined $5,727,830 $6,908,817 $12,636,647
Total Expenses Men's and Women's Teams $30,071,267 $9,528,462 $39,599,729
Not Allocated by Gender/Sport $25,861,595
Grand Total Expenses $65,461,324
CAVEAT


Total Revenues by Team
Varsity Teams Men's Teams Women's Teams Total
Basketball $6,245,295 $680,011 $6,925,306
Football $41,273,517 $41,273,517
Total Revenues of all Sports, Except Football and Basketball, Combined $2,536,795 $3,664,553 $6,201,348
Total Revenues Men's and Women's Teams $50,055,607 $4,344,564 $54,400,171
Not Allocated by Gender/Sport $13,763,777
Grand Total for all Teams (includes by team and not allocated by gender/sport) $68,163,948
CAVEAT


Revenues and Expenses Summary

Men's Teams Women's Teams Total
1 Total of Head Coaches' Salaries $4,341,295 $681,079 $5,022,374
2 Total of Assistant Coaches' Salaries $5,192,110 $838,680 $6,030,790
3 Total Salaries (Lines 1+2) $9,533,405 $1,519,759 $11,053,164
4 Athletically Related Student Aid $5,794,789 $4,259,507 $10,054,296
5 Recruiting Expenses $967,824 $317,172 $1,284,996
6 Operating (Game-Day) Expenses $6,745,159 $1,501,930 $8,247,089
7 Summary of Subset Expenses (Lines 3+4+5+6) $23,041,177 $7,598,368 $30,639,545
8 Total Expenses for Teams $30,071,267 $9,528,462 $39,599,729
9 Total Expenses for Teams Minus Subset Expenses (Line 8 – Line 7) $7,030,090 $1,930,094 $8,960,184
10 Not Allocated Expenses $25,861,595
11 Grand Total Expenses (Lines 8+10) $65,461,324
12 Total Revenues for Teams $50,055,607 $4,344,564 $54,400,171
13 Not Allocated Revenues $13,763,777
14 Grand Total Revenues (Lines 12+13) $68,163,948
15 Total Revenues for Teams minus Total Expenses for Teams (Line 12-Line 8) $19,984,340 -$5,183,898 $14,800,442
16 Grand Total Revenues Minus Grand Total Expenses (Line 14- Line 11)

How it's reported is related to how the school classifies each category, and no two school does their accounting the same.

Oh BTW....the EADA report doesn't count the money that IPTAY spends on athletics every year since technically IPTAY is not a part of Clemson University.

In 2012 IPTAY spent money on items like new lights for Death Valley (along with Riggs Field it cost IPTAY $568k), $1,116,000 for new bleachers in the lower bowl of Death Valley, $1.6 million on practice facility needs and enhancements, and $400k on the training table/dining facility in the West Zone. It also annually contributes around $2 million towards the operation of Vickery Hall. None of that is covered in your "report", which is about as useful as something like this:

Quote:I'm going to list all the schools that I think can get the votes to get into the ACC. Not that I like them or that it will happen.

The ACC presidents will not invite a school with an open enrollement component in their undergraduate mission. That means no WVu, no Kentucky, no Louisville, (notice how those schools are clustered in the upper Appalachian/Ohio River/ Coal Belt. Syracuse is not liked by some of the schools and may have blackballed NCSU at the 2001 AAU vote - I don't know that for certain. FSU and Miami will not vote for other Florida schools and GT and Clemson will back them - UNC, Uva and Duke as well.

That leaves:

Notre Dame (Most money, but the ACC has to accept a modified football schedual 7 games)
Pittsburg (As I gleen, all the Presidents and Chancellors second choice)
UConn (We are over the litigation and their Attorney General)
Rutgers (A nose holder due to being in New Jersey)
Army (Well respected, not a first choice)
Navy (Well resepected, not a first choice)
Cincinatti (Well respected, not a first choice - someting must be done to Nippert Stadium)
SUNY -Stony Brook (A project for the entire league, but it might bring NYC)
Missouri - Only if the Big XII falls apart
Kansas - Only if the Big XII falls apart
Vandy - The only SEC school that 4 ACC schools do not have a full reason to hate or despise
Indiana - The only Big 10 school that 4 ACC schools do not have a reason to hate or despise
Toronto - (Well respected, but a tertiary option)
McGill - ( See above)
Dailhousie - (See above)

The odds favor the ACC staying at 12, even if we expand we are likely to stay at 14.

OK, hindsight makes this really funny. Even using foresight, makes this pretty funny. Who said this? Was it Lumber?

http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/11597/


While rankings manipulation often takes the form of fraudulent reporting of data, many university administrators have been able to raise their respective schools’ rankings through seemingly arbitrary and useless measures. For instance, in 2009, Clemson University staff members brought to light several methods of rankings manipulation, including increasing the number of small classes (while also enlarging already massive ones), and increasing the size of the alumni donor network through small, insignificant donations.

Cuse

This was from 2010 when a conversation began over what would happen if the ACC were to fall apart and the ACC had to go outside the box. Obviously things have change since 2010.

I guess Baloney desperately needs to find something that was wrong. I was wrong about the ACC and Louisville, however I do know that back in 2010, not every ACC president/chancellor was enamored with Syracuse and since the post is based on how I thought the majority of Chancellors and Presidents felt about the particular school - I think I was fairly accurate.

PS. Someone will crack the Canadian market despite the difference between Canadian college football and their semi-pro level for kids that age, if football lasts long enough or solves the concussion problem.

Quote:I'm going to list all the schools that I think can get the votes to get into the ACC. Not that I like them or that it will happen.

The ACC presidents will not invite a school with an open enrollement component in their undergraduate mission. That means no WVu, no Kentucky, no Louisville, (notice how those schools are clustered in the upper Appalachian/Ohio River/ Coal Belt. Syracuse is not liked by some of the schools and may have blackballed NCSU at the 2001 AAU vote - I don't know that for certain. FSU and Miami will not vote for other Florida schools and GT and Clemson will back them - UNC, Uva and Duke as well.

That leaves:

Notre Dame (Most money, but the ACC has to accept a modified football schedual 7 games)
Pittsburg (As I gleen, all the Presidents and Chancellors second choice)
UConn (We are over the litigation and their Attorney General)
Rutgers (A nose holder due to being in New Jersey)
Army (Well respected, not a first choice)
Navy (Well resepected, not a first choice)
Cincinatti (Well respected, not a first choice - someting must be done to Nippert Stadium)
SUNY -Stony Brook (A project for the entire league, but it might bring NYC)
Missouri - Only if the Big XII falls apart
Kansas - Only if the Big XII falls apart
Vandy - The only SEC school that 4 ACC schools do not have a full reason to hate or despise
Indiana - The only Big 10 school that 4 ACC schools do not have a reason to hate or despise
Toronto - (Well respected, but a tertiary option)
McGill - ( See above)
Dailhousie - (See above)

The odds favor the ACC staying at 12, even if we expand we are likely to stay at 14.

(07-27-2014 11:03 AM)cuseroc Wrote:  

(07-27-2014 10:57 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(07-27-2014 10:24 AM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  

(07-27-2014 06:44 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(07-26-2014 02:43 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  Nole, what you seem to be suggesting is that money buys wins. Does it? http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/InstList.aspx

Using the above data based the schools report to the US Department of ED what they spent on football and this is their per win amount they spent in the fall of 2012:

Auburn $12 million a win - $36 million total - 3 wins
Iowa $5.25 million a win - $21 million total - 4 wins
Miami $3.4 million a win - $24 million total - 7 wins
Duke $3.16 million a win - $19 million total - 6 wins
Alabama $3.15 million a win - $41 million total - 13 wins
Tennessee $3.0 million a win - $27 million total - 9 wins
Michigan $2.87 million a win - $23 million total - 8 wins
Michigan State $2.85 million a win - $20 million total - 7 wins
NC State $2.57 million a win - $18 million total - 7 wins
Baylor $2.5 million a win - $20 million total - 8 wins
Iowa State $2.5 million a win - $15 million total - 6 wins
Florida $2.3 million a win - $26 million total - 11 wins
South Carolina $2.27 a win - $25 million total - 11 wins
UNC - 2.0 million a win - $16 million total - 8 wins
FSU - 1.9 million a win - $23 million total - 12 wins
Clemson - 1.81 million a win - $20 million total - 11 wins
TAMU - 1.63 million a win - $18 million total - 11 wins


Other than Alabama and Auburn - the spending on the football programs range between $15 and $27 million. Auburn spent $36 million for it's worst season in modern history and Bama spent $41 million for a BCS championship. $5 million separated their spending.

The really big head coaching salaries come after the results on the field, not prior to the result - essentially Saban and K are getting defacto bonuses. The players still have to play the game.

A great QB, and a great defense is needed to win 10 or more games.

Here's that cohort with 2013 results (spending not available)

Auburn $12 million a win - $36 million total - 3 wins - 12 wins
Iowa $5.25 million a win - $21 million total - 4 wins - 8 wins
Miami $3.4 million a win - $24 million total - 7 wins - 9 wins
Duke $3.16 million a win - $19 million total - 6 wins - 10 wins
Alabama $3.15 million a win - $41 million total - 13 wins 11 wins
Tennessee $3.0 million a win - $27 million total - 9 wins - 8 wins
Michigan $2.87 million a win - $23 million total - 8 wins - 7 wins
Michigan State $2.85 million a win - $20 million total - 7 wins 13 wins
NC State $2.57 million a win - $18 million total - 7 wins - 3 wins
Baylor $2.5 million a win - $20 million total - 8 wins - 11 wins
Iowa State $2.5 million a win - $15 million total - 6 wins - 3 wins
Florida $2.3 million a win - $26 million total - 11 wins - 4 wins
South Carolina $2.27 a win - $25 million total - 11 wins - 11 wins
UNC - 2.0 million a win - $16 million total - 8 wins - 7 wins
FSU - 1.9 million a win - $23 million total - 12 wins - 14 wins
Clemson - 1.81 million a win - $20 million total - 11 wins - 11 wins
TAMU - 1.63 million a win - $18 million total - 11 wins

Money is important, but money simply can't buy wins. It takes more than money.

Moreover, the cost of competing in your conference is the first obstacle you face. What does it cost to make it to your championship game in the B10, versus the SEC, versus the ACC? I think we can all agree that the cost of competition is highest in the SEC and probably lowest in the ACC.

Then the issue becomes what do you do on the field when you meet a team from outside your conference - is the money edge of that much value in such meetings? FSU and Clemson and MSU seem to indicate that the answer is no.

Perhaps the reality of the money is a two tier game:

1. You need a certain base amount to compete in your conference then,
2. You need a certain extra amount to compete for the top of your conference
3. Once you finally mix with the other top 10 on the field for one game, the extra money seems to have a diminishing return.

Those 2012 finances for Clemson are amazing considering 2012 was when we built our $10 million practice facility.

Oh yeah....that isn't those numbers for football.

Neither are coach's salaries.

Neither are recruiting expenses.

Neither are other facility upgrades for the football program.


Now when you look at those numbers provided the only thing that comes to mind is this:

Quote:There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics

Mark Twain

Baloney - you need to argue with the folks at Clemson who supplied the information to the feds. Unless you are claiming that Clemson lied to the feds: http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/InstDetails....353120414d :

I thought Clemson stopped lying when Danny Ford was forced out. Am I wrong?



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Search Criteria•Institution name: 'Clemson'

Clemson University Unit ID: 217882
General Information Athletic Department Information

201 Sikes Hall
Clemson, SC 29634
Phone: 864-656-4636

Number of Full-time Undergraduates: 15,570
Men: 8,298
Women: 7,272 Director: Dan Radakovich
PO BOX 31
MCFADDEN BUILDING
CLEMSON, SC 29633-0031

Reporting Year: 7/1/2012 - 6/30/2013
Reporting Official: Graham Neff
Title: Associate Athletic Director
Phone: 864-656-0128
Sanctioning Body: NCAA Division I-A

Participants | Coaching Staff and Salaries | Revenues and Expenses | Supplemental Info

Athletically Related Student Aid
Men's Teams Women's Teams Total
Total $5,794,789 $4,259,507 $10,054,296
Ratio (percent) 58 42 100%
CAVEAT


Recruiting Expenses
Men's Teams Women's Teams Total
Total $967,824 $317,172 $1,284,996
CAVEAT


Operating (Game-Day) Expenses by Team
Men's Teams Women's Teams
Varsity Teams Participants Operating Expenses per Participant By Team Participants Operating Expenses per Participant By Team Total Operating Expenses
Basketball 14 $59,597 $834,361 14 $44,821 $627,494 $1,461,855
Football 115 $42,914 $4,935,053 $4,935,053
Baseball 32 $13,527 $432,863 $432,863
All Track Combined 93 $2,742 $254,984 100 $3,158 $315,765 $570,749
Diving 12 $4,912 $58,938 $58,938
Golf 10 $5,758 $57,575 $57,575
Rowing 76 $2,186 $166,099 $166,099
Soccer 28 $4,094 $114,642 21 $4,218 $88,584 $203,226
Tennis 7 $16,526 $115,681 6 $17,503 $105,015 $220,696
Volleyball 14 $10,003 $140,035 $140,035
Total Operating Expenses Men's and Women's Teams 299 $6,745,159 243 $1,501,930 $8,247,089
CAVEAT


Total Expenses by Team
Varsity Teams Men's Teams Women's Teams Total
Basketball $4,373,940 $2,619,645 $6,993,585
Football $19,969,497 $19,969,497
Total Expenses of all Sports, Except Football and Basketball, Combined $5,727,830 $6,908,817 $12,636,647
Total Expenses Men's and Women's Teams $30,071,267 $9,528,462 $39,599,729
Not Allocated by Gender/Sport $25,861,595
Grand Total Expenses $65,461,324
CAVEAT


Total Revenues by Team
Varsity Teams Men's Teams Women's Teams Total
Basketball $6,245,295 $680,011 $6,925,306
Football $41,273,517 $41,273,517
Total Revenues of all Sports, Except Football and Basketball, Combined $2,536,795 $3,664,553 $6,201,348
Total Revenues Men's and Women's Teams $50,055,607 $4,344,564 $54,400,171
Not Allocated by Gender/Sport $13,763,777
Grand Total for all Teams (includes by team and not allocated by gender/sport) $68,163,948
CAVEAT


Revenues and Expenses Summary

Men's Teams Women's Teams Total
1 Total of Head Coaches' Salaries $4,341,295 $681,079 $5,022,374
2 Total of Assistant Coaches' Salaries $5,192,110 $838,680 $6,030,790
3 Total Salaries (Lines 1+2) $9,533,405 $1,519,759 $11,053,164
4 Athletically Related Student Aid $5,794,789 $4,259,507 $10,054,296
5 Recruiting Expenses $967,824 $317,172 $1,284,996
6 Operating (Game-Day) Expenses $6,745,159 $1,501,930 $8,247,089
7 Summary of Subset Expenses (Lines 3+4+5+6) $23,041,177 $7,598,368 $30,639,545
8 Total Expenses for Teams $30,071,267 $9,528,462 $39,599,729
9 Total Expenses for Teams Minus Subset Expenses (Line 8 – Line 7) $7,030,090 $1,930,094 $8,960,184
10 Not Allocated Expenses $25,861,595
11 Grand Total Expenses (Lines 8+10) $65,461,324
12 Total Revenues for Teams $50,055,607 $4,344,564 $54,400,171
13 Not Allocated Revenues $13,763,777
14 Grand Total Revenues (Lines 12+13) $68,163,948
15 Total Revenues for Teams minus Total Expenses for Teams (Line 12-Line 8) $19,984,340 -$5,183,898 $14,800,442
16 Grand Total Revenues Minus Grand Total Expenses (Line 14- Line 11)

How it's reported is related to how the school classifies each category, and no two school does their accounting the same.

Oh BTW....the EADA report doesn't count the money that IPTAY spends on athletics every year since technically IPTAY is not a part of Clemson University.

In 2012 IPTAY spent money on items like new lights for Death Valley (along with Riggs Field it cost IPTAY $568k), $1,116,000 for new bleachers in the lower bowl of Death Valley, $1.6 million on practice facility needs and enhancements, and $400k on the training table/dining facility in the West Zone. It also annually contributes around $2 million towards the operation of Vickery Hall. None of that is covered in your "report", which is about as useful as something like this:

Quote:I'm going to list all the schools that I think can get the votes to get into the ACC. Not that I like them or that it will happen.

The ACC presidents will not invite a school with an open enrollement component in their undergraduate mission. That means no WVu, no Kentucky, no Louisville, (notice how those schools are clustered in the upper Appalachian/Ohio River/ Coal Belt. Syracuse is not liked by some of the schools and may have blackballed NCSU at the 2001 AAU vote - I don't know that for certain. FSU and Miami will not vote for other Florida schools and GT and Clemson will back them - UNC, Uva and Duke as well.

That leaves:

Notre Dame (Most money, but the ACC has to accept a modified football schedual 7 games)
Pittsburg (As I gleen, all the Presidents and Chancellors second choice)
UConn (We are over the litigation and their Attorney General)
Rutgers (A nose holder due to being in New Jersey)
Army (Well respected, not a first choice)
Navy (Well resepected, not a first choice)
Cincinatti (Well respected, not a first choice - someting must be done to Nippert Stadium)
SUNY -Stony Brook (A project for the entire league, but it might bring NYC)
Missouri - Only if the Big XII falls apart
Kansas - Only if the Big XII falls apart
Vandy - The only SEC school that 4 ACC schools do not have a full reason to hate or despise
Indiana - The only Big 10 school that 4 ACC schools do not have a reason to hate or despise
Toronto - (Well respected, but a tertiary option)
McGill - ( See above)
Dailhousie - (See above)

The odds favor the ACC staying at 12, even if we expand we are likely to stay at 14.

OK, hindsight makes this really funny. Even using foresight, makes this pretty funny. Who said this? Was it Lumber?

None other.

What's really funny is that Baloney has to go back nearly 5 years to find an error on my part. That's real Clemson intellect there.

Of course he has to take it out of context and forgets that MD's exit as it happened was not something that most say coming.

It's not a direct connection like Clemson football and NCAA sanctions.



Clemson Coaches Guilty Of Stupidity

DAVID TEEL


January 12, 1990|By DAVID TEEL Columnist


Prior to the 1984 season, Clemson football players strutted around campus wearing t-shirts with the team's motto: "On probation and still kickin' ass."

It seemed harmless at the time. Borderline humorous. Certainly true. Sanctions for recruiting violations couldn't mask the fact that Clemson was the Atlantic Coast Conference's premier program.








More than five years later, with Clemson sinking fast in another quagmire of NCAA violations, the t-shirts symbolize a sickness that still infects Clemson football. Probation wasn't a punishment. It was a badge of courage. Forget remorse. Just kick ass.

Such arrogance. Such stupidity.

Mere months after winning the 1981 national championship, Clemson was slapped with a two-year NCAA probation for serious recruiting violations. Most of the nastiness occurred under former coach Charley Pell. Some occurred under Danny Ford, Pell's successor.

The ACC added an extra year of sanctions, barring Clemson from postseason play in 1984. School officials were furious and talked of leaving the conference. The talk was cheap.

Now we learn that talk of reform was just as cheap. According to the NCAA, Clemson coaches made 11 improper recruiting contacts between November, 1984 and September, 1987. Translation: Clemson was ignoring the rules even while on probation.

And that's just one of 14 violations.

But don't dare believe that the Tigers are victims of some obscure, ambiguous NCAA regulation, of which there are many. Recruiting dead periods are clearly defined, and Clemson ignored them.

Why? Clemson already had the ACC's premier program. Its facilities are incomparable on a national scale. You don't have to cheat to recruit at Clemson.

But after the 1981 national championship, Clemson aspired to more than mere ACC titles. Major bowl bids and top-10 rankings were the goals. Clemson expanded its recruiting base and courted players previously reserved for the Notre Dames, Miamis, Auburns and Southern Californias.

Ford and his staff held their own. Their recruiting classes were touted as among the nation's best, and those players produced on the field, leading the Tigers to three ACC championships, and a combined 38-8-2 record from 1986-89. During that time Clemson defeated marquee programs Penn State, Oklahoma and West Virginia in bowl games.

"The program is in better shape than it's ever been," assistant coach Chuck Ready said during the 1989 season. "The last four-five years we've gradually broadened our recruiting base. Every year we seem to get into another area."

Many head coaches plead ignorance when their assistants are nabbed for recruiting violations. Ford won't have that luxury.

"He's more involved in recruiting probably than any head coach in the country," Ready said. "We meet every week on recruiting and talk about every player. We have about 200 names on the board, and he wants to know about them all."






That's why Danny Ford has coached his last game at Clemson. When he was named Clemson's athletic director in 1985, Bobby Robinson vowed to purge all rule breakers from Clemson's athletic department. He has not retracted that promise.

Ford's resignation or dismissal may be the only measure that can save Clemson's program from an NCAA-ordered shutdown. The NCAA would have shut down Kentucky basketball if the school hadn't canned Coach Eddie Sutton. And cheating while on probation, which Clemson did, is just as serious as the skullduggery at Kentucky.

Speculation concerning Ford's successor already has started. North Carolina State's Dick Sheridan has been mentioned, which is foolish. Sheridan is a straight-laced South Carolina grad who last season rejected offers from his alma mater and Georgia.

William and Mary's Jimmye Laycock is a former Clemson assistant - before any NCAA violations - with an excellent reputation. Furman Coach Jimmy Satterfield guides a successful Division I-AA program right up the road from Clemson. Air Force Coach Fisher DeBerry's son is a sophomore on the Clemson baseball team.

Many others - big names - will be interested. Clemson is a tremendous job. Cheating is not a prerequisite to national success.

Cheating anywhere is shameful. Cheating at Clemson is arrogant and stupid.

Glass houses and all

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NC_State_Wo...s_.5B42.5D

Quote:NCAA Sanctions [42]

The NC State men's basketball program is one of the more punished programs in the history of the NCAA.[43] Throughout its history, NC State men's basketball has been placed on probation by the NCAA on four separate occasions (1954–55, 1956–60, 1972–73, and 1989–91) and also sanctioned for multiple players’ roles in a massive point shaving scandal in the early 1960s. The Wolfpack were ineligible for the NCAA tournament in at least one season of each of those occasions.

• Put on probation in 1954-55 and declared ineligible for postseason play due to payments made to player Ronnie Shavlik

• Put on probation from 1956–60 and declared ineligible for postseason play due to payments made to recruit Jackie Moreland

• Point shaving by players Don Gallagher, Anton Muehlbauer, Stan Niewierowski, and Terry Litchfield led to an investigation by the North Carolina SBI, cancellation of the Dixie Classic, scholarship and recruiting limitations, schedule limitations in 1962, and players were forbidden from participating in summer competition. Players from the North Carolina Tar Heels men's basketball were also implicated in the scandal, with the school receiving the same penalties.[44]

• Put on probation in 1972-73 and declared ineligible for postseason play due to multiple recruiting violations regarding David Thompson

• Put on probation from 1989–91 and declared ineligible for postseason play due to a lack of institutional control. This investigation originally stemmed from Peter Golenbock’s Personal Fouls - The Broken Promises and Shattered Dreams of Big Money Basketball at Jim Valvano's North Carolina State,[45] which documented alleged multiple instances of drug use, payments to players, and widespread academic misconduct. The NCAA investigation verified claims of players selling complimentary tickets and sneakers provided to them by the school.[46]