(01-23-2015 02:52 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(01-23-2015 01:48 PM)colohank Wrote:  

(01-23-2015 01:44 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  

(01-23-2015 01:22 PM)7thHeaven Wrote:  Their is no doubt in my mind that IF ND joined their would be some big schools that would be interested to join with them, Cincy and UCONN would get their shot in another conference if that happen.

Like who?

Well let's see, there's the Seattle Seahawks and the Boston Patriots. Why settle for some lousy college team when you can snag a pro franchise and put your conference above all the rest?

Don't sell them short. It's the New England Patriots.

Fair enough. And we're the Ohio Bearcats.

(01-23-2015 03:24 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(01-23-2015 03:12 PM)ecuacc4ever Wrote:  

(01-23-2015 12:43 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  But you know damn well that PSU and Tennessee are never joining the ACC. So the two question remain:

1) Notre Dame as 15 and who would be 16? However, it does not appear Notre Dame is interested.

2) Do we go 17 teams for all-sports but football? And who would be 15 and 16? Cincinnati, Connecticut, and West Virginia?

And I also know damn well it makes no fiscal sense to add your pet project (re: Cincinnati) just to reach that "magical" 16 that most think we need to be at, while sacrificing revenue.

Marge and Kaplony (welcome back, fella) would raise holy hell if they LOST money on any arrangement, and we'd have to suffer through reading about it.

14, with Notre Dame playing 5 (or 6) games per season, is working terribly fine from what I see.

So, when you can convince me that adding Cincinnati generates $2M for your school (Louisville) and everyone else's school(s), then I'll come off my stance.

This is like folks in the SEC arguing "we need to get to 16, so let's ask Memphis to join".

The stance should be (and likely is) the ACC will stand pat until they HAVE to consider expansion because some school like Penn State, Tennessee (or even Texas) have expressed a legit desire to join.

Or, if enough votes exist to consider West Virginia.

I do think that there is a chance that PSU jumps. In all honesty, all of PSU's historic major rivalry games are against ACC teams. And, yes, I know PSU sees OSU as a rival, but realistically the average OSU grad couldn't find State College on a labeled map. They care about Michigan, and only Michigan. And yes, I know UMD and RU see PSU as a rival, but UMD is something like 1-39 against PSU and RU might actually be worse (and definitely not much better).

Money being roughly equal, PSU comes to the ACC. I'm not sure if the money will ever be roughly equal, but if the ACCN does happen and if it does make gobs of cash (I'm not as optimistic as some, but I'll suspect disbelief), then I can see a world where the ACC + PSU is roughly equal to the current B1G, especially if someone fairly substantial joined with PSU (ideally ND, Tennessee, or Texas, but WVU might also work).

Wow, Syracuse has been in the ACC for two years or so, and you're already looking down your nose at some potential additions to the conference because you doubt they might bring an additional $2M to your coffers.

How much additional money, if any, has football-powerhouse Syracuse generated for its ACC brethren? I'm trying real hard to imagine the lights dimming all across the United States when tens of millions of folks simultaneously turn on their TV sets to watch Syracuse play.

(01-23-2015 06:01 PM)colohank Wrote:  

(01-23-2015 03:24 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(01-23-2015 03:12 PM)ecuacc4ever Wrote:  

(01-23-2015 12:43 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  But you know damn well that PSU and Tennessee are never joining the ACC. So the two question remain:

1) Notre Dame as 15 and who would be 16? However, it does not appear Notre Dame is interested.

2) Do we go 17 teams for all-sports but football? And who would be 15 and 16? Cincinnati, Connecticut, and West Virginia?

And I also know damn well it makes no fiscal sense to add your pet project (re: Cincinnati) just to reach that "magical" 16 that most think we need to be at, while sacrificing revenue.

Marge and Kaplony (welcome back, fella) would raise holy hell if they LOST money on any arrangement, and we'd have to suffer through reading about it.

14, with Notre Dame playing 5 (or 6) games per season, is working terribly fine from what I see.

So, when you can convince me that adding Cincinnati generates $2M for your school (Louisville) and everyone else's school(s), then I'll come off my stance.

This is like folks in the SEC arguing "we need to get to 16, so let's ask Memphis to join".

The stance should be (and likely is) the ACC will stand pat until they HAVE to consider expansion because some school like Penn State, Tennessee (or even Texas) have expressed a legit desire to join.

Or, if enough votes exist to consider West Virginia.

I do think that there is a chance that PSU jumps. In all honesty, all of PSU's historic major rivalry games are against ACC teams. And, yes, I know PSU sees OSU as a rival, but realistically the average OSU grad couldn't find State College on a labeled map. They care about Michigan, and only Michigan. And yes, I know UMD and RU see PSU as a rival, but UMD is something like 1-39 against PSU and RU might actually be worse (and definitely not much better).

Money being roughly equal, PSU comes to the ACC. I'm not sure if the money will ever be roughly equal, but if the ACCN does happen and if it does make gobs of cash (I'm not as optimistic as some, but I'll suspect disbelief), then I can see a world where the ACC + PSU is roughly equal to the current B1G, especially if someone fairly substantial joined with PSU (ideally ND, Tennessee, or Texas, but WVU might also work).

Wow, Syracuse has been in the ACC for two years or so, and you're already looking down your nose at some potential additions to the conference because you doubt they might bring an additional $2M to your coffers.

How much additional money, if any, has football-powerhouse Syracuse generated for its ACC brethren? I'm trying real hard to imagine the lights dimming all across the United States when tens of millions of folks simultaneously turn on their TV sets to watch Syracuse play.

For starters, the ECU fan bashed UC, not me. I just said that I think our historic rival, PSU, might jump to the ACC under the right circumstances, given that PSU also has, or could have, substantial rivalries with Miami, ND, VT, UVA (maybe), UL (maybe), Pitt, FSU, and Clemson. That has nothing to do with UC. In fact, I actively like UC. If you look at a number of my previous posts, I have repeatedly said that I think UC would be a fantastic addition to the B12. I'm not exactly a UC hater or a poster bent on keeping UC down.

But, since you asked, Syracuse generated a ton of money. Along with Pitt, we moved the ACC media payout north by from $13 million/year/school to $17 million/year/school which is about $4 million per school, per year (3 to 4 * 12 other schools = $36 to $48 additional million into the hands of the existing conference members per year). And, SU has delivered solid ratings (in football and basketball) and packed houses in basketball for 2 years now. We also brought a bowl (Pinstripe Bowl) and I'm guessing you missed our BCS bowls in the '80's and 90's, because exactly what you described (lights dimming while the nation watched) is literally what happened.

In short, next time you explode, 1) explode at the right person (this may require reading) and 2) make sure you're right.

(01-23-2015 06:01 PM)colohank Wrote:  

(01-23-2015 03:24 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(01-23-2015 03:12 PM)ecuacc4ever Wrote:  

(01-23-2015 12:43 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  But you know damn well that PSU and Tennessee are never joining the ACC. So the two question remain:

1) Notre Dame as 15 and who would be 16? However, it does not appear Notre Dame is interested.

2) Do we go 17 teams for all-sports but football? And who would be 15 and 16? Cincinnati, Connecticut, and West Virginia?

And I also know damn well it makes no fiscal sense to add your pet project (re: Cincinnati) just to reach that "magical" 16 that most think we need to be at, while sacrificing revenue.

Marge and Kaplony (welcome back, fella) would raise holy hell if they LOST money on any arrangement, and we'd have to suffer through reading about it.

14, with Notre Dame playing 5 (or 6) games per season, is working terribly fine from what I see.

So, when you can convince me that adding Cincinnati generates $2M for your school (Louisville) and everyone else's school(s), then I'll come off my stance.

This is like folks in the SEC arguing "we need to get to 16, so let's ask Memphis to join".

The stance should be (and likely is) the ACC will stand pat until they HAVE to consider expansion because some school like Penn State, Tennessee (or even Texas) have expressed a legit desire to join.

Or, if enough votes exist to consider West Virginia.

I do think that there is a chance that PSU jumps. In all honesty, all of PSU's historic major rivalry games are against ACC teams. And, yes, I know PSU sees OSU as a rival, but realistically the average OSU grad couldn't find State College on a labeled map. They care about Michigan, and only Michigan. And yes, I know UMD and RU see PSU as a rival, but UMD is something like 1-39 against PSU and RU might actually be worse (and definitely not much better).

Money being roughly equal, PSU comes to the ACC. I'm not sure if the money will ever be roughly equal, but if the ACCN does happen and if it does make gobs of cash (I'm not as optimistic as some, but I'll suspect disbelief), then I can see a world where the ACC + PSU is roughly equal to the current B1G, especially if someone fairly substantial joined with PSU (ideally ND, Tennessee, or Texas, but WVU might also work).

Wow, Syracuse has been in the ACC for two years or so, and you're already looking down your nose at some potential additions to the conference because you doubt they might bring an additional $2M to your coffers.

How much additional money, if any, has football-powerhouse Syracuse generated for its ACC brethren? I'm trying real hard to imagine the lights dimming all across the United States when tens of millions of folks simultaneously turn on their TV sets to watch Syracuse play.

Jut remember that you are a guest here, so theres no need to start the smack about Syracuse or any other Acc school. But since you did ask, when Syracuse and Pitt came to the Acc, the Acc tv deal increased from just under $14 million per school to just under $18 million per school.

Also, Syracuse had the fourth highest tv ratings of all the ACC schools in the 2013 season for football. I havent seen the average ratings for this season. Syracuse had the second highest tv ratings in the Acc for bb in the 2013 season, and was involved in 2 of the most watched bb games in ESPN history. Syracuse has more than paid for itself in the ACC. And as soon as Syracuse was official in the ACC, the league was suddenly able to have their games on MSG Network and the YES Network, something that they were never able to do before.

And when the Acc network does launch, there will be 7 million sets of eyeballs in Upstate NY that will help the channel land on standard tier cable thru Time Warner.

If Cinci could do any of that or even come close, they would probably already be in the ACC. Hopefully Cinci will land on its feet somewhere though. Out of all the schools in the AAC, they seem to have the best chance with its great balance of good fb and good bb.

(01-23-2015 06:23 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  

(01-23-2015 06:01 PM)colohank Wrote:  Wow, Syracuse has been in the ACC for two years or so, and you're already looking down your nose at some potential additions to the conference because you doubt they might bring an additional $2M to your coffers.

How much additional money, if any, has football-powerhouse Syracuse generated for its ACC brethren? I'm trying real hard to imagine the lights dimming all across the United States when tens of millions of folks simultaneously turn on their TV sets to watch Syracuse play.

Just remember that you are a guest here, so there's no need to start the smack about Syracuse or any other Acc school.

Eh, it's alright. He clearly saw what the guy above me wrote and somehow accidentally attributed those words to me. I gave him a hard time in my response, but I don't think that any feelings were really hurt. I also don't think that he meant what he said. For the most part, I think that it was a quick emotional response.

(01-23-2015 07:05 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(01-23-2015 06:23 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  

(01-23-2015 06:01 PM)colohank Wrote:  Wow, Syracuse has been in the ACC for two years or so, and you're already looking down your nose at some potential additions to the conference because you doubt they might bring an additional $2M to your coffers.

How much additional money, if any, has football-powerhouse Syracuse generated for its ACC brethren? I'm trying real hard to imagine the lights dimming all across the United States when tens of millions of folks simultaneously turn on their TV sets to watch Syracuse play.

Just remember that you are a guest here, so there's no need to start the smack about Syracuse or any other Acc school.

Eh, it's alright. He clearly saw what the guy above me wrote and somehow accidentally attributed those words to me. I gave him a hard time in my response, but I don't think that any feelings were really hurt. I also don't think that he meant what he said. For the most part, I think that it was a quick emotional response.

^ No, that's not how I read the thread.

The UC guy was clearly responding to your response to me, as I made no mention whatsoever of Syracuse. I only offered my opinion of Wilkie's continued sponsorship of UC as an ACC member in the event 16 teams is a stated goal.

(01-23-2015 07:05 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(01-23-2015 06:23 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  

(01-23-2015 06:01 PM)colohank Wrote:  Wow, Syracuse has been in the ACC for two years or so, and you're already looking down your nose at some potential additions to the conference because you doubt they might bring an additional $2M to your coffers.

How much additional money, if any, has football-powerhouse Syracuse generated for its ACC brethren? I'm trying real hard to imagine the lights dimming all across the United States when tens of millions of folks simultaneously turn on their TV sets to watch Syracuse play.

Just remember that you are a guest here, so there's no need to start the smack about Syracuse or any other Acc school.

Eh, it's alright. He clearly saw what the guy above me wrote and somehow accidentally attributed those words to me. I gave him a hard time in my response, but I don't think that any feelings were really hurt. I also don't think that he meant what he said. For the most part, I think that it was a quick emotional response.

Well, hes still a guest here. Its up to him as to how long he will continue to be a guest here. And he obviously has some reading and comprehension difficulties as your response did not address Cinci and you mentioned them in no kind of way.

(01-23-2015 02:53 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(01-22-2015 10:55 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  Only thing I can think of is that 3 of those school don't want to be in the ACC...

It all hinges on big ACCN money to change that.

More than Big Ten and SEC money? Not going to happen in the foreseeable future, if ever.

(01-23-2015 06:23 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  If Cinci could do any of that or even come close, they would probably already be in the ACC. Hopefully Cinci will land on its feet somewhere though. Out of all the schools in the AAC, they seem to have the best chance with its great balance of good fb and good bb.

To be perfectly honest, how do we know this is the case? I bet there weren't many who we're thinking Syracuse and Pitt were worth as much as they were to a conference before they added, at least not those who are being honest. Sometimes value can be difficult to see for a lot of people. The whole idea of a conference is that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

It's very plausible that ESPN could request that the ACC add a couple markets in order to launch the ACC network. The ACC wouldn't love it, but what choice would they have? They know it would end as a net positive for the conference. Perhaps ESPN wants to reduce competition in the marketplace and wish to rid themselves of the AAC conference deal while giving them more areas to gain subscriber fees. All of a sudden Cincy starts looking like they are pretty valuable considering the lack of realistic targets (despite would some in this thread would suggest) combined with their media market. All this is very realistic. I'm not suggesting it will happen and don't really get caught up in all this desperate conference wishing, but it's certainly a viable scenario.

In the right situation, a team can look a lot more or less valuable depending on external factors. Kind of like how a house worth 400k in 2006 can barely fetch 200k less than 5 years later. Value can't be established in a vacuum. External factors can sometimes make all the difference. It's my job to see value in different arenas. Maybe that's why I look at this differently. Or I could be a giant homer. Either one I'm fine with.

There are three ways I know of to measure a teams following and, therefore, its value:
1. home game paid attendance
2. TV ratings
3. sales of logo merchandise

I like UC and I hope they are in the ACC someday, but at the time of expansion, Syracuse was above UC in those categories, IIRC.

(01-24-2015 06:55 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  There are three ways I know of to measure a teams following and, therefore, its value:
1. home game paid attendance
2. TV ratings
3. sales of logo merchandise

I like UC and I hope they are in the ACC someday, but at the time of expansion, Syracuse was above UC in those categories, IIRC.

I like to include:
4. Friendliness of the mascot
5. General orangeness of the school's feel
6. Time spent in domes

(01-24-2015 01:12 AM)stxrunner Wrote:  

(01-23-2015 06:23 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  If Cinci could do any of that or even come close, they would probably already be in the ACC. Hopefully Cinci will land on its feet somewhere though. Out of all the schools in the AAC, they seem to have the best chance with its great balance of good fb and good bb.

To be perfectly honest, how do we know this is the case? I bet there weren't many who we're thinking Syracuse and Pitt were worth as much as they were to a conference before they added, at least not those who are being honest.

I cant speak for Pitt, but I knew Syracuse's value to other conferences. I remember once back in 2006, a reporter asked Tranghese what would help the BE the most? He responded "we need Syracuse to start winning again." And when Syracuse started popping up in BIG expansion scenarios and seeing how Syracuse dominates Upstate NY college sports, its large athletic budget along with its academic prowess, it was easy to see its value. But it doesn't matter whether you or I knew its value. Those, who's job it is to know these things knew SU's value, and that's all that matters.

(01-24-2015 09:58 AM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(01-24-2015 06:55 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  There are three ways I know of to measure a teams following and, therefore, its value:
1. home game paid attendance
2. TV ratings
3. sales of logo merchandise

I like UC and I hope they are in the ACC someday, but at the time of expansion, Syracuse was above UC in those categories, IIRC.

I like to include:
4. Friendliness of the mascot
5. General maroonishness of the school's feel
6. Time spent in domes

The MOST valuable teams always have some variation of maroon in the color scheme. FSU, Oklahoma, Alabama, Va Tech, even BC has this color.

(01-23-2015 12:43 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  But you know damn well that PSU and Tennessee are never joining the ACC.

Disagree. If the money is there a case can be made for both.

(01-23-2015 11:27 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  

(01-23-2015 02:53 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(01-22-2015 10:55 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  Only thing I can think of is that 3 of those school don't want to be in the ACC...

It all hinges on big ACCN money to change that.

More than Big Ten and SEC money? Not going to happen in the foreseeable future, if ever.

If you're right about that, then I have no argument to make to those 3 schools.

But I do NOT think you're necessarily right about that. I don't think it's a stone cold lock you're wrong, but I think it is more likely you are wrong than right.

What do you consider the "foreseeable future"? Because I'd say the next ~15 years, with the current CFP and conference contracts/GORs is a good time frame for that.

(01-24-2015 07:30 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(01-24-2015 09:58 AM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(01-24-2015 06:55 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  There are three ways I know of to measure a teams following and, therefore, its value:
1. home game paid attendance
2. TV ratings
3. sales of logo merchandise

I like UC and I hope they are in the ACC someday, but at the time of expansion, Syracuse was above UC in those categories, IIRC.

I like to include:
4. Friendliness of the mascot
5. General maroonishness of the school's feel
6. Time spent in domes

The MOST valuable teams always have some variation of maroon in the color scheme. FSU, Oklahoma, Alabama, Va Tech, even BC has this color.

Interesting theory, but unfortunately, it breaks down when you consider the fact that none of those schools spend a lot of time in domes.

Also, keep in mind the fact that the base of any good maroon is a good orange layer.

(01-24-2015 11:18 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  What do you consider the "foreseeable future"? Because I'd say the next ~15 years, with the current CFP and conference contracts/GORs is a good time frame for that.

Mid 2020's as the GOR expire and come up from all the major conferences.

I would be surprised if the conferences let the GORs expire and then seek to renew them. I think it is more likely that they seek to extend them when they are about 5 year from expiration. Of course, if there are schools looking elsewhere, they may simply block those attempts.

(01-25-2015 07:45 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(01-24-2015 11:18 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  What do you consider the "foreseeable future"? Because I'd say the next ~15 years, with the current CFP and conference contracts/GORs is a good time frame for that.

Mid 2020's as the GOR expire and come up from all the major conferences.

And you think in 10 years from now, the ACC will likely be receiving substantially more revenue than both the Big Ten and SEC, which will give them an opportunity to lure schools from those conferences?