For the life of me, other than *maybe* Pitt fans, I cant figure out why any fans of ACC schools would rather be in the B1G. And, ironically, I have literally never witnessed a Pitt fan expressing a desire to be in the Big Ten.

Put as little or as much faith in my opinion and credentials (or lack thereof) as you want, but as a Big Ten grad, I can assure you that there is nothing exciting about B1G athletics. Big Ten teams generally have a boring style of play (3 yards and a cloud of dust, "fundamentally sound" basketball, etc.) and involve schools that aren't relevant in the vast majority of places that you want to live (Minnesota, Iowa, Illinois, Purdue, Indiana, etc.). In fact, most of the PSU fans that I know, and I know a lot because I went there, would secretly rather see PSU play SU, Pitt, and VT. Conference payout aside, the Big Ten is a terrible conference unless you live in the Midwest. If you're fretting because you don't play Northwestern enough, then I assure you that you need not worry.

(03-10-2015 05:40 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(03-10-2015 03:32 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(03-10-2015 03:09 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  1. ND isn't joining the ACC in the immediate future. The Irish might in 20 years, but they won't in 3.

2. I hope I'm wrong, but I really, really doubt it.

That said...
3. The irony of anyone claiming that Notre Dame, a Catholic organization, can't be bought is pretty thick.

4. Before the free world goes nuts on me and calls me a bunch of names, keep this fact in mind: I'm Catholic.

Who in the world said what you list as #3 above? Certainly not me.

Mind you, I am Catholic too. :)

Well, my Catholic friend, I'm pretty sure "ND can't be bought" is a direct quote from you. I think that you said it in our first conversation a couple of years ago.

I don't recall that, but believe you. If I did, it was to win a debate, because everyone can be bought if the price is right.

Besides being Catholic, I am also a lawyer, so I know of what I speak. :)

(03-10-2015 05:54 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  For the life of me, other than *maybe* Pitt fans, I cant figure out why any fans of ACC schools would rather be in the B1G. And, ironically, I have literally never witnessed a Pitt fan expressing a desire to be in the Big Ten.

Put as little or as much faith in my opinion and credentials (or lack thereof) as you want, but as a Big Ten grad, I can assure you that there is nothing exciting about B1G athletics. Big Ten teams generally have a boring style of play (3 yards and a cloud of dust, "fundamentally sound" basketball, etc.) and involve schools that aren't relevant in the vast majority of places that you want to live (Minnesota, Iowa, Illinois, Purdue, Indiana, etc.). In fact, most of the PSU fans that I know, and I know a lot because I went there, would rather see PSU play SU, Pitt, and VT. Conference payout aside, the Big Ten is a terrible conference, unless you live in the Midwest. If you're fretting because you don't play Northwestern enough, then I assure you that you need not worry.

I think that the Big Ten Western Division is one of the most dismal things in college athletics, as far as location goes.

If H1 is lurking, no offense to Iowa but I think that playing in those venues would be worse for ND, in total, than playing in the Big 12.

One of the things I think that the Big Ten would do if ND had ever joined would be to shove them, sooner or later, into this division:

ND
Illinois
Purdue
Indiana
Wisconsin
Iowa
Minnesota
Nebraska


The Tundra Division.


I agree with you on the style of play as well.

(03-11-2015 07:35 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(03-10-2015 05:54 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  For the life of me, other than *maybe* Pitt fans, I cant figure out why any fans of ACC schools would rather be in the B1G. And, ironically, I have literally never witnessed a Pitt fan expressing a desire to be in the Big Ten.

Put as little or as much faith in my opinion and credentials (or lack thereof) as you want, but as a Big Ten grad, I can assure you that there is nothing exciting about B1G athletics. Big Ten teams generally have a boring style of play (3 yards and a cloud of dust, "fundamentally sound" basketball, etc.) and involve schools that aren't relevant in the vast majority of places that you want to live (Minnesota, Iowa, Illinois, Purdue, Indiana, etc.). In fact, most of the PSU fans that I know, and I know a lot because I went there, would rather see PSU play SU, Pitt, and VT. Conference payout aside, the Big Ten is a terrible conference, unless you live in the Midwest. If you're fretting because you don't play Northwestern enough, then I assure you that you need not worry.

I think that the Big Ten Western Division is one of the most dismal things in college athletics, as far as location goes.

If H1 is lurking, no offense to Iowa but I think that playing in those venues would be worse for ND, in total, than playing in the Big 12.

One of the things I think that the Big Ten would do if ND had ever joined would be to shove them, sooner or later, into this division:

ND
Illinois
Purdue
Indiana
Wisconsin
Iowa
Minnesota
Nebraska


The Tundra Division.


I agree with you on the style of play as well.

That is just depressing... a fate worse than the American Athletic Conference!

(03-10-2015 05:54 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  For the life of me, other than *maybe* Pitt fans, I cant figure out why any fans of ACC schools would rather be in the B1G. And, ironically, I have literally never witnessed a Pitt fan expressing a desire to be in the Big Ten.

In fact, most of the PSU fans that I know, and I know a lot because I went there, would secretly rather see PSU play SU, Pitt, and VT.

You said the right word, "secretly". Because most Penn State fans I know love to proudly pound their chest to "we don't need to play Pitt every year, what is in it for us?"

(03-11-2015 08:55 AM)7fielder Wrote:  

(03-10-2015 05:54 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  For the life of me, other than *maybe* Pitt fans, I cant figure out why any fans of ACC schools would rather be in the B1G. And, ironically, I have literally never witnessed a Pitt fan expressing a desire to be in the Big Ten.

In fact, most of the PSU fans that I know, and I know a lot because I went there, would secretly rather see PSU play SU, Pitt, and VT.

You said the right word, "secretly". Because most Penn State fans I know love to proudly pound their chest to "we don't need to play Pitt every year, what is in it for us?"

con·tempt [kənˈtem], noun - the feeling that a person or a thing is beneath consideration, worthless, or deserving scorn.

One of the deadliest of sins, though not as bad as child molestation, IMO.

(03-11-2015 07:30 AM)TerryD Wrote:  I don't recall that

What is important to ND fans is to NEVER join a football conference and NEVER play more than FIVE ACC games per year.
(I cannot stress this point enough).
-- TerryD 8/2/14

texas ...
a whole lot of money ...
network option ...
preservation of the ACC ...
new generation of leadership ...
if that won't do the trick ...
nothing will ...
and I want out ...
you people are CrAzY...
time to say goodbye ...

DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE
-- green 8/15/14

That won't do the trick. Only a mandate that conference champs are the only ones legally allowed in the playoffs will do that.

LIVE FREE OR DIE
-- TerryD 8/15/14

REFRESHER COURSE

(03-10-2015 10:58 AM)TerryD Wrote:  IF the ACC were to get Texas into the ACC (full) and get the Longhorn Network to morph into the ACC Network, how much money are we talking about (with ND on board too)?

One of the reasons Texas walked away from an invitation to join the Pac-10 was because it would have to relinquish its plans to launch its own network.
-- Chip Brown

What’s not on the table is the money from Texas’ 20-year, $300 million deal with ESPN to create the Longhorn Network, which has been blamed in large part for Texas A&M’s pending departure from the Big 12.

“That’s never been in play, that’s not in play,” Texas athletic director DeLoss Dodds said.
-- AP

I wouldn't count on that ...

GO TO THE MAT

(03-11-2015 11:05 AM)green Wrote:  

(03-11-2015 07:30 AM)TerryD Wrote:  I don't recall that

What is important to ND fans is to NEVER join a football conference and NEVER play more than FIVE ACC games per year.
(I cannot stress this point enough).
-- TerryD 8/2/14

texas ...
a whole lot of money ...
network option ...
preservation of the ACC ...
new generation of leadership ...
if that won't do the trick ...
nothing will ...
and I want out ...
you people are CrAzY...
time to say goodbye ...

DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE
-- green 8/15/14

That won't do the trick. Only a mandate that conference champs are the only ones legally allowed in the playoffs will do that.

LIVE FREE OR DIE
-- TerryD 8/15/14

REFRESHER COURSE

I still stick by that. I think that the only real thing that will cause ND to join the ACC in football is a playoff mandate.

(03-11-2015 12:22 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(03-11-2015 11:05 AM)green Wrote:  

(03-11-2015 07:30 AM)TerryD Wrote:  I don't recall that

What is important to ND fans is to NEVER join a football conference and NEVER play more than FIVE ACC games per year.
(I cannot stress this point enough).
-- TerryD 8/2/14

texas ...
a whole lot of money ...
network option ...
preservation of the ACC ...
new generation of leadership ...
if that won't do the trick ...
nothing will ...
and I want out ...
you people are CrAzY...
time to say goodbye ...

DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE
-- green 8/15/14

That won't do the trick. Only a mandate that conference champs are the only ones legally allowed in the playoffs will do that.

LIVE FREE OR DIE
-- TerryD 8/15/14

REFRESHER COURSE

I still stick by that. I think that the only real thing that will cause ND to join the ACC in football is a playoff mandate.

http://www.csnchicago.com/notre-dame/aft...ff-chances

Could not playing a conference championship game keep an 11-1 Irish side out of the playoff given the precedent set by the selection committee this past year?

unless the playoff expands in the near future Notre Dame will have to ask itself if it can make the playoff with one loss like Alabama, Oregon and Ohio State.
-- csnchicago

everyone can be bought if the price is right.
-- TerryD 3/11/15

some just demand a higher price ...

TALK OUT OF BOTH SIDES OF YOUR MOUTH

(03-11-2015 12:46 PM)green Wrote:  

(03-11-2015 12:22 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(03-11-2015 11:05 AM)green Wrote:  

(03-11-2015 07:30 AM)TerryD Wrote:  I don't recall that

What is important to ND fans is to NEVER join a football conference and NEVER play more than FIVE ACC games per year.
(I cannot stress this point enough).
-- TerryD 8/2/14

texas ...
a whole lot of money ...
network option ...
preservation of the ACC ...
new generation of leadership ...
if that won't do the trick ...
nothing will ...
and I want out ...
you people are CrAzY...
time to say goodbye ...

DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE
-- green 8/15/14

That won't do the trick. Only a mandate that conference champs are the only ones legally allowed in the playoffs will do that.

LIVE FREE OR DIE
-- TerryD 8/15/14

REFRESHER COURSE

I still stick by that. I think that the only real thing that will cause ND to join the ACC in football is a playoff mandate.

http://www.csnchicago.com/notre-dame/aft...ff-chances

Could not playing a conference championship game keep an 11-1 Irish side out of the playoff given the precedent set by the selection committee this past year?

unless the playoff expands in the near future Notre Dame will have to ask itself if it can make the playoff with one loss like Alabama, Oregon and Ohio State.
-- csnchicago

everyone can be bought if the price is right.
-- TerryD 3/11/15

some just demand a higher price ...

TALK OUT OF BOTH SIDES OF YOUR MOUTH

No, I am consistent.

I don't think that the playoff committee action/precedent will cause ND to budge.

I think that only a mandated champs only playoff will do that.

I don't think that ND football will join the ACC in full because of an ACC Network.

Why? No good reason to do so. It is problematic that:

1) such a network will ever take place

2) such a network will ever pay out enough money to interest ND into full membership.

I posted up thread (page 19) that a $5-10 million a year network payout would not be enough, it would probably take a huge payout (I suggested $15-20 million a year to ND alone).

I was talking about possibly interesting the ND administration, not the fans.

I posted in your quoted, highlighted post from last August that ND FANS (like me)----go back and look at my post---- would not want ND to join the ACC or increase conference games even if it helped land Texas and lots of network money.

I posted later in this thread that everyone (the ND administration) can be bought if the price is right.

No inconsistencies here.

It is all moot because this idea of NBC/ESPN/ND/Texas/ACC all coming together to form this dreamy conference network paying out mega millions is all a big pipe dream.

So, here is my stance:

1) ND will not join a football conference unless a playoff champ only mandate exists (not very likely ever). That would force their hand and I and most ND fans would understand.

2) The ND administration would not forego independence for an additional $5-10 million dollars a year via an ACC Network. Not even close to being worth it.

3) The ND administration would likely be intrigued with a possible combination with Texas on an ACC Network if ND could get a $15 million dollar a year payout like the Longhorn Network.

That could mean that both Texas and ND keep "ND type deals" with the ACC, not join in full. But, yes, it could mean it would consider full membership at that price range.

4) Many ND fans, like me, would not be happy with that possibility if that meant full membership or further erosion of independence. But, the ND administration may have found its price at that level. That would possibly modify #1 above.

5) I think that ## 3 and 4 above are pipe dreams and have little chance of occurring in the real world.



Sooooo....to sum up....yes, if the ACC can snag Texas, let ND keep the NBC contract, play only 8 conference games, guarantee ND an additional ACC Network payout of about $15 million a year....then the ND administration may well be interested in such talks.

Many ND fans will still be very upset if that happens and still will not be big fans of the ACC, ever. I will adapt, though (I am sure you all are relieved to hear that).

(03-11-2015 01:52 PM)TerryD Wrote:  3) The ND administration would likely be intrigued with a possible combination with Texas on an ACC Network if ND could get a $15 million dollar a year payout like the Longhorn Network.

That could mean that both Texas and ND keep "ND type deals" with the ACC, not join in full. But, yes, it could mean it would consider full membership at that price range.

framework of a short story ...

I'M DIZZY

(03-11-2015 02:24 PM)green Wrote:  

(03-11-2015 01:52 PM)TerryD Wrote:  3) The ND administration would likely be intrigued with a possible combination with Texas on an ACC Network if ND could get a $15 million dollar a year payout like the Longhorn Network.

That could mean that both Texas and ND keep "ND type deals" with the ACC, not join in full. But, yes, it could mean it would consider full membership at that price range.

framework of a short story ...

I'M DIZZY

Lol, I knew that already!

You said the right word, "secretly". Because most Penn State fans I know love to proudly pound their chest to "we don't need to play Pitt every year, what is in it for us?"
[/quote]

con·tempt [kənˈtem], noun - the feeling that a person or a thing is beneath consideration, worthless, or deserving scorn.

One of the deadliest of sins, though not as bad as child molestation, IMO.
[/quote]

Bunch of sinners...

(03-11-2015 01:52 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(03-11-2015 12:46 PM)green Wrote:  

(03-11-2015 12:22 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(03-11-2015 11:05 AM)green Wrote:  

(03-11-2015 07:30 AM)TerryD Wrote:  I don't recall that

What is important to ND fans is to NEVER join a football conference and NEVER play more than FIVE ACC games per year.
(I cannot stress this point enough).
-- TerryD 8/2/14

texas ...
a whole lot of money ...
network option ...
preservation of the ACC ...
new generation of leadership ...
if that won't do the trick ...
nothing will ...
and I want out ...
you people are CrAzY...
time to say goodbye ...

DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE
-- green 8/15/14

That won't do the trick. Only a mandate that conference champs are the only ones legally allowed in the playoffs will do that.

LIVE FREE OR DIE
-- TerryD 8/15/14

REFRESHER COURSE

I still stick by that. I think that the only real thing that will cause ND to join the ACC in football is a playoff mandate.

http://www.csnchicago.com/notre-dame/aft...ff-chances

Could not playing a conference championship game keep an 11-1 Irish side out of the playoff given the precedent set by the selection committee this past year?

unless the playoff expands in the near future Notre Dame will have to ask itself if it can make the playoff with one loss like Alabama, Oregon and Ohio State.
-- csnchicago

everyone can be bought if the price is right.
-- TerryD 3/11/15

some just demand a higher price ...

TALK OUT OF BOTH SIDES OF YOUR MOUTH

No, I am consistent.

I don't think that the playoff committee action/precedent will cause ND to budge.

I think that only a mandated champs only playoff will do that.

I don't think that ND football will join the ACC in full because of an ACC Network.

Why? No good reason to do so. It is problematic that:

1) such a network will ever take place

2) such a network will ever pay out enough money to interest ND into full membership.

I posted up thread (page 19) that a $5-10 million a year network payout would not be enough, it would probably take a huge payout (I suggested $15-20 million a year to ND alone).

I was talking about possibly interesting the ND administration, not the fans.

I posted in your quoted, highlighted post from last August that ND FANS (like me)----go back and look at my post---- would not want ND to join the ACC or increase conference games even if it helped land Texas and lots of network money.

I posted later in this thread that everyone (the ND administration) can be bought if the price is right.

No inconsistencies here.

It is all moot because this idea of NBC/ESPN/ND/Texas/ACC all coming together to form this dreamy conference network paying out mega millions is all a big pipe dream.

So, here is my stance:

1) ND will not join a football conference unless a playoff champ only mandate exists (not very likely ever). That would force their hand and I and most ND fans would understand.

2) The ND administration would not forego independence for an additional $5-10 million dollars a year via an ACC Network. Not even close to being worth it.

3) The ND administration would likely be intrigued with a possible combination with Texas on an ACC Network if ND could get a $15 million dollar a year payout like the Longhorn Network.

That could mean that both Texas and ND keep "ND type deals" with the ACC, not join in full. But, yes, it could mean it would consider full membership at that price range.

4) Many ND fans, like me, would not be happy with that possibility if that meant full membership or further erosion of independence. But, the ND administration may have found its price at that level. That would possibly modify #1 above.

5) I think that ## 3 and 4 above are pipe dreams and have little chance of occurring in the real world.



Sooooo....to sum up....yes, if the ACC can snag Texas, let ND keep the NBC contract, play only 8 conference games, guarantee ND an additional ACC Network payout of about $15 million a year....then the ND administration may well be interested in such talks.

Many ND fans will still be very upset if that happens and still will not be big fans of the ACC, ever. I will adapt, though (I am sure you all are relieved to hear that).

I agree with your observations, Terry. I don't think ND will ever need to join a FB conference because I don't think the CFB powers-that-be will ever put in place a structure that requires ND to join a conference. What I think is happening here is a variation of the old "mutual assured destruction" from the Cold War days. Basically, while every conference would very much love to have ND join them, they are more afraid that if ND was required join a conference, it might very well not be THEIR conference. As a result, the safest play for these conferences is to to maintain the status quo.

(03-11-2015 04:11 PM)Eagle78 Wrote:  

(03-11-2015 01:52 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(03-11-2015 12:46 PM)green Wrote:  

(03-11-2015 12:22 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(03-11-2015 11:05 AM)green Wrote:  What is important to ND fans is to NEVER join a football conference and NEVER play more than FIVE ACC games per year.
(I cannot stress this point enough).
-- TerryD 8/2/14

texas ...
a whole lot of money ...
network option ...
preservation of the ACC ...
new generation of leadership ...
if that won't do the trick ...
nothing will ...
and I want out ...
you people are CrAzY...
time to say goodbye ...

DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE
-- green 8/15/14

That won't do the trick. Only a mandate that conference champs are the only ones legally allowed in the playoffs will do that.

LIVE FREE OR DIE
-- TerryD 8/15/14

REFRESHER COURSE

I still stick by that. I think that the only real thing that will cause ND to join the ACC in football is a playoff mandate.

http://www.csnchicago.com/notre-dame/aft...ff-chances

Could not playing a conference championship game keep an 11-1 Irish side out of the playoff given the precedent set by the selection committee this past year?

unless the playoff expands in the near future Notre Dame will have to ask itself if it can make the playoff with one loss like Alabama, Oregon and Ohio State.
-- csnchicago

everyone can be bought if the price is right.
-- TerryD 3/11/15

some just demand a higher price ...

TALK OUT OF BOTH SIDES OF YOUR MOUTH

No, I am consistent.

I don't think that the playoff committee action/precedent will cause ND to budge.

I think that only a mandated champs only playoff will do that.

I don't think that ND football will join the ACC in full because of an ACC Network.

Why? No good reason to do so. It is problematic that:

1) such a network will ever take place

2) such a network will ever pay out enough money to interest ND into full membership.

I posted up thread (page 19) that a $5-10 million a year network payout would not be enough, it would probably take a huge payout (I suggested $15-20 million a year to ND alone).

I was talking about possibly interesting the ND administration, not the fans.

I posted in your quoted, highlighted post from last August that ND FANS (like me)----go back and look at my post---- would not want ND to join the ACC or increase conference games even if it helped land Texas and lots of network money.

I posted later in this thread that everyone (the ND administration) can be bought if the price is right.

No inconsistencies here.

It is all moot because this idea of NBC/ESPN/ND/Texas/ACC all coming together to form this dreamy conference network paying out mega millions is all a big pipe dream.

So, here is my stance:

1) ND will not join a football conference unless a playoff champ only mandate exists (not very likely ever). That would force their hand and I and most ND fans would understand.

2) The ND administration would not forego independence for an additional $5-10 million dollars a year via an ACC Network. Not even close to being worth it.

3) The ND administration would likely be intrigued with a possible combination with Texas on an ACC Network if ND could get a $15 million dollar a year payout like the Longhorn Network.

That could mean that both Texas and ND keep "ND type deals" with the ACC, not join in full. But, yes, it could mean it would consider full membership at that price range.

4) Many ND fans, like me, would not be happy with that possibility if that meant full membership or further erosion of independence. But, the ND administration may have found its price at that level. That would possibly modify #1 above.

5) I think that ## 3 and 4 above are pipe dreams and have little chance of occurring in the real world.



Sooooo....to sum up....yes, if the ACC can snag Texas, let ND keep the NBC contract, play only 8 conference games, guarantee ND an additional ACC Network payout of about $15 million a year....then the ND administration may well be interested in such talks.

Many ND fans will still be very upset if that happens and still will not be big fans of the ACC, ever. I will adapt, though (I am sure you all are relieved to hear that).

I agree with your observations, Terry. I don't think ND will ever need to join a FB conference because I don't think the CFB powers-that-be will ever put in place a structure that requires ND to join a conference. What I think is happening here is a variation of the old "mutual assured destruction" from the Cold War days. Basically, while every conference would very much love to have ND join them, they are more afraid that if ND was required join a conference, it might very well not be THEIR conference. As a result, the safest play for these conferences is to to maintain the status quo.

I think it's worse than that, 9 out of 10 FBS conferences have been told loudly and clearly that it WILL NOT be their conference. Notre Dame isn't going to be forced to join a conference by any NCAA or CFP action or rule for that reason alone.

When Notre Dame increases its football participation in the ACC it will be completely voluntary and done in a way that mutually benefits both Notre Dame and the ACC.

(03-11-2015 01:52 PM)TerryD Wrote:  Sooooo....to sum up....yes, if the ACC can snag Texas, let ND keep the NBC contract, play only 8 conference games, guarantee ND an additional ACC Network payout of about $15 million a year....then the ND administration may well be interested in such talks.

we'll pursue ut to the ends of the earth but can't guarantee ut will wash up on the shores of the promised land ...
texas remains CR's most coveted property because of their versatility ...
they can go east, west, north, south ...
stay the same or strike out on their own ...
everybody wants them ...
what we can guarantee is a suitable #16 amenable to all ...
i.e. longhorn steakhouse, pennitentiary state dare I say west virginia mountain mama ...
swing for the fences ...
or as frank the tank may say: f_ _k you, pay me ...
it might be ...
it could be ...

IT IS

(03-12-2015 12:57 PM)green Wrote:  

(03-11-2015 01:52 PM)TerryD Wrote:  Sooooo....to sum up....yes, if the ACC can snag Texas, let ND keep the NBC contract, play only 8 conference games, guarantee ND an additional ACC Network payout of about $15 million a year....then the ND administration may well be interested in such talks.

we'll pursue ut to the ends of the earth but can't guarantee will deliver ut to the shores of the promised land ...
texas remains the most coveted property in CR because of their versatility ...
they can go east, west, south, north ...
stay the same or strike out on their own ...
everybody wants them ...
what we can guarantee is a suitable #16 amenable to all ...
i.e. longhorn steakhouse, pennitentiary state or dare I say west virginia mountain mama ...
swing for the fences ...
or as frank the tank may say: f_ _k you, pay me ...
it might be ...
it could be ...

IT IS

Without Texas, that swing for the fence has only warning track power.

CAN OF CORN

Lumberpack your guy packman81 went off the rail a bit with the posting that sbnation info as likely.
http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=178&f=251..._170213415

Well I see you're agreeing with him in that thread.

(04-08-2015 02:11 PM)domer1978 Wrote:  Lumberpack your guy packman81 went off the rail a bit with the posting that sbnation info as likely.
http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=178&f=251..._170213415

Well I see you're agreeing with him in that thread.

Crackride!