I have no deep philosophical disagreement with for-profit colleges.

However, I am a critic of them and I do not think their students should be eligible for federal student loans.

(03-26-2015 04:11 PM)BIgCatonProwl Wrote:  College is not necessarily the ticket to a great life, but it helps. College is not for everyone. That why getting a vocational skill plumber, electrician, welder etc can put you on the patheto making a great living without a college degree in fact a lot of these people make more money that a lot of people with a college degree, I know some plumbers and electricians who make 100k plus a year. i think Bloomberg 9I may be wrong) was quoted as saying he would advise his son to become a plumber, instead of going to college, return was better for the investment

The trades represent a viable alternative. Frankly, there is a coming shortage of plumbers on the horizon that's going to make those future plumber bills sky rocket (as well as plumber salaries). The average age of a plumber is in the mid-50's. That kind of tells you what the situation is about to look like.

One thing to consider about the trades is the life cycle. The trades are not bad for a guy in his 20's or 30's. But think about the being a 55 year old mechanic, plumber, or air conditioning repairman. That might be kind tough on the joints and you may simply not be able to physically maintain your employment for a full career. Remember, not everyone can be a crew supervisor. So, there are risks with that career track as well.

I guess thats what has changed lately. If you ask me what is more impressive

Spending the last 5 years getting a college degree.
Or spending the last 5 years working as a plumber.

30 years ago I would answer college degee.
Today I would answer plumber.

Ok, actually I would ask what kind of degree and what kind of plumber, but if that was all the information i had to go on, those would be my answers. Today 5 years of plumbing experience impresses me more than a college degree.

(03-26-2015 04:43 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  The trades represent a viable alternative. Frankly, there is a coming shortage of plumbers on the horizon that's going to make those future plumber bills sky rocket (as well as plumber salaries). The average age of a plumber is in the mid-50's. That kind of tells you what the situation is about to look like.

One thing to consider about the trades is the life cycle. The trades are not bad for a guy in his 20's or 30's. But think about the being a 55 year old mechanic, plumber, or air conditioning repairman. That might be kind tough on the joints and you may simply not be able to physically maintain your employment for a full career. Remember, not everyone can be a crew supervisor. So, there are risks with that career track as well.

Very true. But alternatively, we need people to do those trades, not everyone can have the office job making 50-100K a year. I think I might try into get into it.

Grand Canyon will be a fascinating test case as they complete their D1 transition.

(03-26-2015 04:43 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(03-26-2015 04:11 PM)BIgCatonProwl Wrote:  College is not necessarily the ticket to a great life, but it helps. College is not for everyone. That why getting a vocational skill plumber, electrician, welder etc can put you on the patheto making a great living without a college degree in fact a lot of these people make more money that a lot of people with a college degree, I know some plumbers and electricians who make 100k plus a year. i think Bloomberg 9I may be wrong) was quoted as saying he would advise his son to become a plumber, instead of going to college, return was better for the investment

The trades represent a viable alternative. Frankly, there is a coming shortage of plumbers on the horizon that's going to make those future plumber bills sky rocket (as well as plumber salaries). The average age of a plumber is in the mid-50's. That kind of tells you what the situation is about to look like.

One thing to consider about the trades is the life cycle. The trades are not bad for a guy in his 20's or 30's. But think about the being a 55 year old mechanic, plumber, or air conditioning repairman. That might be kind tough on the joints and you may simply not be able to physically maintain your employment for a full career. Remember, not everyone can be a crew supervisor. So, there are risks with that career track as well.

Being 55 years old can be hard, I speak from my own experience, I've sat at a desk pretty much most of my career in corporate America. Do exercise and try to do yard work to stay in shape. Around early December I was bed stricken for about a week, with severe back pain could not stand up at all, came right out of the blue (80% of Americans will experience some severe to major back problems in their lives, biggest health cause for missing work). I was incapacitated missed a whole month of work because of it, I am still struggling with the results of that episode, still have sciatica and it kills me to walk any great distance , only way I deal with it now is with meds, until my Doc looks at my MRI, I had done last week, and he'll let me know what going on with my back and what action can be done hopefully to remedy it. Again my career been sitting at a desk, no plumber no stooping and the like. The answer is if your making that type of money 60k - 100k plus, on up, you need to set aside money for that rainy day because it going to come, Have disability insurance etc. Especially if your self employed, there should be no excuses for not having a SEP or simple IRA, and find a trusted financial adviser (to be able to retire with dignity), health insurance, disability etc. If you work for someone they should have this as a benefit package for you as a employee, if they don't , need to find a employer who does ASAP or hang out your own shingle. There's a book I would advise for any parent to get there kids as a gift and nag them to read it and understand the concepts within the book its called "The Richest Man in Babylon" it's a short read (for these short attention span generation) but a good one about building wealth.

(03-26-2015 04:51 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  

(03-26-2015 04:43 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  The trades represent a viable alternative. Frankly, there is a coming shortage of plumbers on the horizon that's going to make those future plumber bills sky rocket (as well as plumber salaries). The average age of a plumber is in the mid-50's. That kind of tells you what the situation is about to look like.

One thing to consider about the trades is the life cycle. The trades are not bad for a guy in his 20's or 30's. But think about the being a 55 year old mechanic, plumber, or air conditioning repairman. That might be kind tough on the joints and you may simply not be able to physically maintain your employment for a full career. Remember, not everyone can be a crew supervisor. So, there are risks with that career track as well.

Very true. But alternatively, we need people to do those trades, not everyone can have the office job making 50-100K a year. I think I might try into get into it.

Absolutely. Not exactly sure when it happened. I know after WWII the trades were still considered an honorable and respectable living. At some point, personally, I'd say it was the late 1970's and early 80's, American parents began to see blue collar jobs as beneath their children. That also corresponds with a period of time of blue collar layoffs as and a collapsing Detroit. A lot of the good paying union jobs were going away. Anyway, it seems like parents really pushed the college track and educators responded by pushing the same concept in high schools.

There's a good living to be made by car mechanics, a/c repairmen, plumbers ect. A side benefit is those jobs are not going to be outsourced. You cant take your car to India to get it fixed. Your plumber cant be located in a call center in Pakistan. So, the trade off for a more physical job is the knowledge that the demand for your services isn't going away.

(03-26-2015 08:20 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Absolutely. Not exactly sure when it happened. I know after WWII the trades were still considered an honorable and respectable living. At some point, personally, I'd say it was the late 1970's and early 80's, American parents began to see blue collar jobs as beneath their children. That also corresponds with a period of time of blue collar layoffs as and a collapsing Detroit. A lot of the good paying union jobs were going away. Anyway, it seems like parents really pushed the college track and educators responded by pushing the same concept in high schools.

There's a good living to be made by car mechanics, a/c repairmen, plumbers ect. A side benefit is those jobs are not going to be outsourced. You cant take your car to India to get it fixed. Your plumber cant be located in a call center in Pakistan. So, the trade off for a more physical job is the knowledge that the demand for your services isn't going away.

And Houston. This area is chock full of blue collar jobs and in the mid-80's there was mild depression in Houston, which had been booming at least since the 60's.

And why wouldn't people push college at that time? Back then very few people went to college and those who did made more solid livings and more money than those who didn't, who were stuck "dumb as rocks" and working blue collar jobs. It was also much cheaper to go to school and the diploma mills and online schools didn't exist, though the various branch campuses and directional schools were starting to emerge.

Now, its rare to find an average person in society who hasn't been to college at some point and its more expensive.

I'm not saying it's dumb to go to school and that college is worthless but it is overrated, especially if you don't know what you wanna do and aren't taking something very, very hard. I remember being depressed in college because I wanted to be getting trained to do a job instead taking courses that didn't stimulate my mind, the concepts from within were found online anyways and classes that ultimately weren't worth the time or money. I was in colleges more making contacts and if anything, getting trained from the extracurricular activities, which I could have dropped out and done anyways outside of school.

(03-26-2015 02:04 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(03-26-2015 01:35 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Maybe people are, correctly, catching on that college is overrated unless you're going for something with a lot of math and hard science in it (and a few exceptions like Criminal Justice that don't readily spring to mind).

College isn't overrated any more than a high school diploma is overrated. It's just that we have shifted in society where college is a bare minimum requirement for many jobs (where a high school diploma might have sufficed in past generations). College grads might not have the greatest job prospects and isn't the guarantee that it used to be, but the job prospects for those that didn't graduate from college are MUCH worse.

Now, these for-profit schools are definitely a bad deal. You can get a superior and more respected education at community colleges for a fraction of the cost. It boggles my mind that anyone actually pays any money to attend any of these for-profit universities (much less take out a massive loan).

Heck, financially you're better off to get a 2 year technical or trade degree than to go to a 4 year university for MOST liberal arts degrees. It never ceases to amaze me the crap some kids are willing to go into debt over.

The ROI is excellent for just about any medical technician, welding, CAD/CAM operators, land surveyors, mechanics, drafting, plumbing, electricians.... the list goes on and on. Somewhere along the line the trades and tech degrees got a stigma placed on them like they're "less than" a 4-year degree. The only thing "less than" is the debt and time you'd live in your parents basement.

(03-26-2015 04:51 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  

(03-26-2015 04:43 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  The trades represent a viable alternative. Frankly, there is a coming shortage of plumbers on the horizon that's going to make those future plumber bills sky rocket (as well as plumber salaries). The average age of a plumber is in the mid-50's. That kind of tells you what the situation is about to look like.

One thing to consider about the trades is the life cycle. The trades are not bad for a guy in his 20's or 30's. But think about the being a 55 year old mechanic, plumber, or air conditioning repairman. That might be kind tough on the joints and you may simply not be able to physically maintain your employment for a full career. Remember, not everyone can be a crew supervisor. So, there are risks with that career track as well.

Very true. But alternatively, we need people to do those trades, not everyone can have the office job making 50-100K a year. I think I might try into get into it.

As you get older you can have your own business or work your way into management if you play your cards right. OR, you could parlay it into further education later down the road so you're qualified to manage.

I used to be a land surveyor (which btw will have a shortage similar to Coogs' plumbing example). Being on job sites got me more and more interested in all aspects of construction. That lead to me going back to university for Construction Management and working my way through over time. In the long run it's really paid off.

I started a business when I was 18 and was doing pretty well. Then Monsanto decided to get in and my business was done. It took 8 years of school and five years of work before I was clearing as much as I did when I was 18, but I'm so grateful that it happened, and that it happened when I was young enough to go to college and have the college experience. I make a lot more now than I did as an 18 year old, but as someone who basically hated school through high school, going to college finally opened my eyes to the value of education and in those four years, in addition to working towards my degree, I took the maximum credits every semester exploring everything that interested, and that experience continues to enrich my life every day. In fact I never really use anything from my biochem undergrad degree, but it opened doors whereas the ethics, logic, literature, philosophy, etc courses come in handy all the time.

(03-26-2015 09:53 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  Heck, financially you're better off to get a 2 year technical or trade degree than to go to a 4 year university for MOST liberal arts degrees. It never ceases to amaze me the crap some kids are willing to go into debt over.

The ROI is excellent for just about any medical technician, welding, CAD/CAM operators, land surveyors, mechanics, drafting, plumbing, electricians.... the list goes on and on. Somewhere along the line the trades and tech degrees got a stigma placed on them like they're "less than" a 4-year degree. The only thing "less than" is the debt and time you'd live in your parents basement.

Boy oh boy, the living in your parent's basement is something else and between the student loan debt and ruined credit (only partially my fault), it's easy to get in over your head in debt at a young age. Heck, in some cases its a better idea to spend ages 18-22 in your parent's basement than in school losing money or even time.

And again, I'm not downing college, I think it's a good thing ultimately but not for every situation and not everybody.

(03-26-2015 10:01 PM)jrj84105 Wrote:  I started a business when I was 18 and was doing pretty well. Then Monsanto decided to get in and my business was done. It took 8 years of school and five years of work before I was clearing as much as I did when I was 18, but I'm so grateful that it happened, and that it happened when I was young enough to go to college and have the college experience. I make a lot more now than I did as an 18 year old, but as someone who basically hated school through high school, going to college finally opened my eyes to the value of education and in those four years, in addition to working towards my degree, I took the maximum credits every semester exploring everything that interested, and that experience continues to enrich my life every day. In fact I never really use anything from my biochem undergrad degree, but it opened doors whereas the ethics, logic, literature, philosophy, etc courses come in handy all the time.

Thats a great story. I wish I knew more college grads that got out of it what you got. Looking back on it, I wish I would have taken more humanities classes or maybe even got a minor in history.

(03-26-2015 10:01 PM)jrj84105 Wrote:  I started a business when I was 18 and was doing pretty well. Then Monsanto decided to get in and my business was done. It took 8 years of school and five years of work before I was clearing as much as I did when I was 18, but I'm so grateful that it happened, and that it happened when I was young enough to go to college and have the college experience. I make a lot more now than I did as an 18 year old, but as someone who basically hated school through high school, going to college finally opened my eyes to the value of education and in those four years, in addition to working towards my degree, I took the maximum credits every semester exploring everything that interested, and that experience continues to enrich my life every day. In fact I never really use anything from my biochem undergrad degree, but it opened doors whereas the ethics, logic, literature, philosophy, etc courses come in handy all the time.

Yep, that's a great reason to go. I ultimately was there in the end more to make contacts than actually study the curriculum hard. And there's a few classes that come in handy as well for me. One professor in my English Comp. class once told me logic has nothing to do with the truth. He was probably the best professor I ever had, though I didn't realize it at the time.

(03-26-2015 02:04 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(03-26-2015 01:35 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  .

Now, these for-profit schools are definitely a bad deal. You can get a superior and more respected education at community colleges for a fraction of the cost. It boggles my mind that anyone actually pays any money to attend any of these for-profit universities (much less take out a massive loan).

yep, the only place to go is govt run indoctrination mills.

If you go for a real major, yes it's a great place to go. The people from college I know who took majors that required true dedication are doing very well.

Chances are that if you have time to party, watch sports wall-to-wall and still pass, it may be time to step up to a harder major.

When I was studying Political Science at UC Santa Barbara, I had entertained thoughts of working in the State Department, being an ambassador or something of that nature. Then I started getting into video editing and streaming. My degree ain't helping me much nowadays.

(03-27-2015 12:37 AM)jdgaucho Wrote:  When I was studying Political Science at UC Santa Barbara, I had entertained thoughts of working in the State Department, being an ambassador or something of that nature. Then I started getting into video editing and streaming. My degree ain't helping me much nowadays.

I was tracking advertising and writing survey questions for a market research firm. It's the only thing I've done that my degree was good for. We switched over to new software, some proprietary and nifty stuff, and being one of the beta testers, I got to keep my job when the software went live; 40-60% of my department weren't so lucky. The remainder saw their jobs outsourced a little over a year later, wages halved and moved to Florida. I, thankfully, saw it coming (we certainly weren't told) and found other work.

I don't know how I feel about the value of the degree. I do a lot of project assistance and support, and even with my degree from a Big Ten school, I'll lose out to folks with less to their name when looking for other gigs. I'll be the first one lining up to take free classes through my benefits, but college didn't fuel my interest in learning. I succeeded in school because I love to learn. Unfortunately, the degree is a formality in order to work at certain places, a certificate of completion, even if you got nothing out of the experience. Can't tell you how often I hear at industry meetings about what it takes to get kids from schools hired. It's not just the degree. It's "the degree and" sort of thing...it's disheartening.

I went to college and law school and never regretted it for a minute.

I grew up in coal mining country in Southwestern Pennsylvania. I had twenty two uncles and aunts.

We used to have big family gatherings when I was a kid. I quickly noticed most male family members were missing body parts and some needed portable oxygen.

At seven years old, I knew that I was never going down into those damn mines. I worked in road construction and in a steel mill during summers in college. That reinforced my desire to get a good education.

My family was low income so I never paid a dime in undergrad tuition. That came from state and Federal grants. I worked to pay for room, board and pocket money.

I got my law degree using Federal Guaranteed Student Loans ($5,000/yr. max back then) and by working. I didn't come out owing very much debt.

My two sons are engineers. My daughter will soon have a four year degree as a nurse. I stressed education as the only "way out" for people like us that were not born into a blue blood family with lots of business and political contacts.

My kids were able to get their degrees by working, by using Louisiana's TOPS program, by using student loans (but not too much) and with the money I saved for their education.

I am a big believer in getting as much education as possible.

(03-26-2015 03:40 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(03-26-2015 02:35 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(03-26-2015 02:08 PM)goofus Wrote:  

(03-26-2015 01:35 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Maybe people are, correctly, catching on that college is overrated unless you're going for something with a lot of math and hard science in it (and a few exceptions like Criminal Justice that don't readily spring to mind).

Well, over-rated as way to a high paying career and achieving financial success. Yes. It is over-rated.

And unfortunately even if your only goal is an enlightened intellectual experience, that falls short too nowadays.

I'd disagree. The college degree is just the ante to have a chance at the high paying career these days. Sure, there are outliers (like the Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg examples people love to point out, of course ignoring the fact that dropping out of Harvard to start your own company because you're a computer genius isn't exactly the same as your run-of-the-mill dropout), but there is no single greater predictor of your income than your level of education. It doesn't mean that it's a 100% predictor (as you'll have a wide range among hundreds of millions of people), but it is by far the strongest one.

^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^

In fact, the explosion in the number of recent college grads flooding the market has made it worse. Some of the jobs I see requiring a degree is ridiculous.

On the up side, there has always been a ceiling at which HS educated employees simply "cap out" at many companies. A degree does save you from that fate. Kids with business degrees and technical degrees will probably continue to do ok over the long run. Yes, not as good as the typical college grad of the past, but still MUCH better than non-college grads. However, if you come out of school with some liberal arts degree---well, your degree may not do a lot for you. Kids need to really think hard about the real world value of the degree they pursue.

I know Texas Gov Perry wanted a program in Texas where you could obtain a college degree for $10K (he and the UT president seriously butted heads on this issue). I feel like that is the answer. The price of the degree has risen too high and needs to be adjusted to reflect the kind of return it traditionally has represented. I believe something like a respectable $10K 4-year degree from a state institution IS coming---and it will be happening at every state. Spending $80-100K on a degree may not be worth it anymore. At $10K, a degree is most certainly worth it.

You can get the first two years at community colleges for about $5-6K, so the goal is probably achievable. Its just a matter of figuring out who is going to provide the low end state diploma mill that represents a an affordable college degree that is generally accepted by the business world. My guess is that we will see an expanded Community College role. The infrastructure is already there. A few Texas Universities offer a limited number of 4 year degrees that can be completed via the Lone Star Community College system. I suspect we will see this option expanded as the CC system, utilizing a mix of internet and actual classroom courses, serves a larger role offering more 4-year degree options. There will be no arts degrees offered this way. This will be about producing a strong work force for the state at an affordable price. You will need to hit the traditional 4 year universities for a liberal arts degree.

Curious to see how this works in TN.

http://tennesseepromise.gov/about.shtml

Quote:Beginning with the Class of 2015, students in Tennessee may apply for the Tennessee Promise scholarship, which will provide two years tuition-free education at a community college or technical school in Tennessee.