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Would the NCAA move the 2016 WBB Tournament out of Indiana...
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Chappy Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Would the NCAA move the 2016 WBB Tournament out of Indiana...
(03-31-2015 10:08 AM)blunderbuss Wrote:  Whether you're a Christian business owner or gay couple... the gov't needs to get out of it altogether. Period. End of story.

If a gay couple wants to get married a church shouldn't be forced to marry them but they should be allowed to be "legally married in the eyes of the government."

If a gay couple wants a cake, a business owner shouldn't be forced to make them one. There are plenty of other bakers that would be more than happy to bake a cake for them but you can't infringe on somebody's religious beliefs.

Exactly.

If I were a gay florist and the nutjobs from Westboro wanted me to make a floral arrangement for one of their protests, I wouldn't want the Government to force me to.
03-31-2015 12:25 PM
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Policiious Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Would the NCAA move the 2016 WBB Tournament out of Indiana...
(03-31-2015 07:39 AM)goodknightfl Wrote:  If the NCAA wishes to pull out of Indiana, they also need to pull out of 18 other states who have very similar laws.

Those other states have provisions banning discrimination against individuals due to sex or sexual orientation, large difference.

For profit businesses (especially those that are publicly held) are not people and therefore do not have the ability to exercise closely held religious beliefs
03-31-2015 12:34 PM
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Policiious Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Would the NCAA move the 2016 WBB Tournament out of Indiana...
(03-30-2015 08:45 PM)sfink16 Wrote:  Any time politics is introduced into sports with the threats its a dangerous tap dance. Obviously the left can jump all over issues but the right can do the same with left politics.

Case in point, would be the elimination of the NIT being played in MSG as punishment for Hillary's potential national security issue of using an unsecured server(never a good idea), located in NY, while conducting potentially sensitive data.

What does the action of one person have to do with a closely held religious belief, try again
03-31-2015 12:36 PM
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Policiious Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Would the NCAA move the 2016 WBB Tournament out of Indiana...
(03-31-2015 07:52 AM)KNIGHTTIME Wrote:  
(03-30-2015 09:51 PM)IceJus10 Wrote:  
(03-30-2015 09:15 PM)shere khan Wrote:  are there that many businesses in indiana with religious convictions that are so strong that will go to the trouble of finding out the sexual preference of employees from the state of Connecticut and then not take their money.


does any of this make any effing sense.

i hate the offseason

That's the problem... under this law they don't need to find out the sexual preference, they can merely presume it with their religious freedom.

So then what is stopping a true bigot from declining service to a black, latin, or jew and say, oh I thought they were gay? There isn't!

That is why this is such a dangerous peace of legislation.

Playing devils advocate - private business can do whatever they want. You have women's groups that discriminate against men. Is a man going to get hired by them. Is a white guy going to be hired by the naacp? Is a Christian going to be hired by a Muslim church? Because some private business doesn't want to provide flowers for a gay couple is their decision, even if it makes for bad business.

The organizations you have mentioned here are largely non profits or religious institutions/fraternal groups; not for profit busineses which creates a large difference
03-31-2015 12:39 PM
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Policiious Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Would the NCAA move the 2016 WBB Tournament out of Indiana...
(03-31-2015 09:00 AM)uhmump95 Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 08:12 AM)blunderbuss Wrote:  
(03-30-2015 08:59 PM)DefCONNOne Wrote:  
(03-30-2015 08:33 PM)IceJus10 Wrote:  Most states have included some form of civil rights law on their books to include sexual orientation along with race, creed, sex, religion, etc as being free from discrimination.

Indiana politicians passed this bill and the governor signed it into law as a response to the beginning of marriage equality in that state; knowing full well that their state DOES NOT have such an inclusion of sexual orientation as a civil right, and that passing this type of legislation would give bigots, under the guise of religion, the law backed right to discriminate against gays that would be forbidden under similar laws in other states.

If you asked me a few years ago, I'd have told you things like this were something we as a nation began to move past decades ago with the passing of sweeping civil rights laws in the 1960's, that led to the end of white/black entrances, separate drinking fountains and segregated schools. Now we have people trying to turn the clock back on America in a last gasp for relevance and power!

I've read this post 3 times, and I'm still stunned at the ignorance on display. Absolutely stunned.

I wish that I was. Unfortunately we have too many kids who have been brainwashed by government schools and political correctness.

There's exactly one issue homosexuals have a legitimate complaint about in some states. Even then there are legal work around to protect assets, inheritance, etc. The rest of it is just stirring **** up. If you don't agree with a businesses politics, don't shop there. Its a pretty simple concept.

Yeah, it's not "married" but it's not being lynched, beaten, separate water fountains, hanged....
There may not be separate "gay" water fountains, but gays have been lynched, and beaten to death for being gay.

What takes precedence? If I as a baker can refuse to bake a cake for a gay person because of religion, why can't I extrapolate it to race? The old testament has plenty of scripture having to do with separation of the races.

The Bible also mentions that gluttony and Slovenliness as being sinful. taking this law to it's extreme, it would permit a person's closely held religious belief to allow them to not serve Fat/overweight people
03-31-2015 12:43 PM
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ecumbh1999 Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Would the NCAA move the 2016 WBB Tournament out of Indiana...
I will say this, I follow Jefferson on this. "It does no harm to my neighbor for me to say there is, but one God. Equally it does me no harm for my Neighbor to say there are twenty or no God."

Baking a Cake for someone has no bearing on your regilion. You bake them a birth cake, but if they came in to the store hand on hand with another guy wanting a wedding cake you'd say no. lol. Would you not make a cake for Jewish couple? Muslim?
(This post was last modified: 03-31-2015 12:46 PM by ecumbh1999.)
03-31-2015 12:43 PM
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Policiious Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Would the NCAA move the 2016 WBB Tournament out of Indiana...
(03-31-2015 09:56 AM)blunderbuss Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 09:00 AM)uhmump95 Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 08:12 AM)blunderbuss Wrote:  
(03-30-2015 08:59 PM)DefCONNOne Wrote:  
(03-30-2015 08:33 PM)IceJus10 Wrote:  Most states have included some form of civil rights law on their books to include sexual orientation along with race, creed, sex, religion, etc as being free from discrimination.

Indiana politicians passed this bill and the governor signed it into law as a response to the beginning of marriage equality in that state; knowing full well that their state DOES NOT have such an inclusion of sexual orientation as a civil right, and that passing this type of legislation would give bigots, under the guise of religion, the law backed right to discriminate against gays that would be forbidden under similar laws in other states.

If you asked me a few years ago, I'd have told you things like this were something we as a nation began to move past decades ago with the passing of sweeping civil rights laws in the 1960's, that led to the end of white/black entrances, separate drinking fountains and segregated schools. Now we have people trying to turn the clock back on America in a last gasp for relevance and power!

I've read this post 3 times, and I'm still stunned at the ignorance on display. Absolutely stunned.

I wish that I was. Unfortunately we have too many kids who have been brainwashed by government schools and political correctness.

There's exactly one issue homosexuals have a legitimate complaint about in some states. Even then there are legal work around to protect assets, inheritance, etc. The rest of it is just stirring **** up. If you don't agree with a businesses politics, don't shop there. Its a pretty simple concept.

Yeah, it's not "married" but it's not being lynched, beaten, separate water fountains, hanged....
There may not be separate "gay" water fountains, but gays have been lynched, and beaten to death for being gay.

What takes precedence? If I as a baker can refuse to bake a cake for a gay person because of religion, why can't I extrapolate it to race? The old testament has plenty of scripture having to do with separation of the races.

Wrong. You're talking about one of 2 things. Either.....

1) the natural dispersion of the races / cultures / language after the flood / tower of Babel or...
2) "Mixed race marriage" being wrong in the sight of God. To simplify this as only a race issue is really missing the point. It wasn't so much to do with race as it was teachings regarding mixed religions in marriage. The simple fact is that people were segregated naturally into different groups based on religious and cultural similarities, not at all different than what we see today in almost every nation. This would be akin to modern day Christian Caucasian marrying someone from the Middle East. It's HIGHLY likely that the Middle Easterner is a Muslim. The scriptures taught against being "unequally yoked" to a non-believer, nothing more.

Ironically, the USA is easily the most integrated country on the planet today.

You're really reaching here... Your reference to scripture is NOT the same thing as gov't mandated segregation.

The flip side of that is there is plenty of scripture which clearly condemns homosexuality.

There is also scripture that labels gluttony & slovenliness as sinful, does that give license for a business owner with a closely held religious belief to not offer their services to Fat/Overweight people based on a business owner not wanting Fat people in their place of business
03-31-2015 12:47 PM
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Danger in Carolina Offline
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Post: #48
RE: Would the NCAA move the 2016 WBB Tournament out of Indiana...
(03-31-2015 12:18 PM)mtmedlin Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 12:07 PM)Danger in Carolina Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 10:08 AM)blunderbuss Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 09:47 AM)mtmedlin Wrote:  The answer to all of this, not just the Indiana law is quite simple. The federal government has been overstepping their bounds for quite some time. They have no reason what so ever to regulate marriage. None. Marriage should be an act between two people.

Now the church, which is an private entity, can choose to either condone and allow within their establishment or they can deny. It is freely their choice. The government cannot. Unfortunately too many people believe this country to be a democracy. It is not. It is a Republic. The key and significant difference is that the government is required to protect the rights of all citizens to a level of equality even if a small or large faction comprising of either a minority or majority chooses to fight against it.

The moment the government put laws into place saying that one group could get married and the other could not, it created a minority and gave that group a legal status and a point of argument.

As far as a business owner... I was one and there is nothing more annoying then having the government come in and tell you what you must do. If baking a cake for a gay couple for their wedding is a violation of the owners first amendment right then how is it the governments position that they must make the cake in order to not be discriminatory. That very position is discriminatory against religious freedom.

Just because someones religious position does not align with the political movement of the day does not mean it does not have validity and deserve protection within a Republic. Allow the market to decide. I personally would not purchase from that cake maker and I believe many others would not.

Our country was founded upon freedom. Not religious freedom or any other specific type. Just Freedom. If were going to create laws and many of which will have errors, then I say let us error on the side of freedom.

When it comes to this issue... your opinion is very close to being in line with mine. Whether you're a Christian business owner or gay couple... the gov't needs to get out of it altogether. Period. End of story.

If a gay couple wants to get married a church shouldn't be forced to marry them but they should be allowed to be "legally married in the eyes of the government."

If a gay couple wants a cake, a business owner shouldn't be forced to make them one. There are plenty of other bakers that would be more than happy to bake a cake for them but you can't infringe on somebody's religious beliefs.

I agree. My only difference would be the marriage is a religious institution. That if we need a legal definition for a gay union so that a gay couple can be legally recognized as a single entity in the eyes of the government, I'm okay with that but that is not a marriage. Actually I think by having a legal definition for gay couples would solve other issues like access to see partners in hospitals, tax issues, estate issues, and in some cases insurance issues not currently defined.

While it is only a word to some people - marriage has special meaning to all Christians. Quite simply the definition of true marriage goes beyond a legal union and speaks directly to the organization of the Church.

And of course everything in politics is about compromise. For me the compromise on this issue is to have a legal entity definition, but also respect the Christian definition of marriage.

Marriage has been around far before monotheism and was widely believe in by the celts and norse who didnt believe in a christian god. It even has deep eastern religion history.

So I would say that the government just allows all people to define their beneficiary and then a church can call it whatever it wants. The title should be the same for all citizens since we are one nation.

I think we are on the same path of thinking. Although I'm not talking about Norse or Eastern religions. Neither of those groups make up a majority of the population in the US South or are they political forces in the US. Christians are and at least in the American South control the agenda.

It is unfashionable today to look for compromises in American politics, however, it is still the best path and the most practical way to reach a happy spot for the broadest number of Americans.

If you are looking for a political solution to the "gay marriage" issue my point is that it would be much more palatable and get more support if the word "marriage" and "gay" were separated. More Christians would be okay with the concept of a civil union or legal entity without "marriage" tied to it.
(This post was last modified: 03-31-2015 12:48 PM by Danger in Carolina.)
03-31-2015 12:48 PM
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Post: #49
RE: Would the NCAA move the 2016 WBB Tournament out of Indiana...
(03-31-2015 11:55 AM)mtmedlin Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 11:15 AM)wavefan12 Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 10:08 AM)blunderbuss Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 09:47 AM)mtmedlin Wrote:  The answer to all of this, not just the Indiana law is quite simple. The federal government has been overstepping their bounds for quite some time. They have no reason what so ever to regulate marriage. None. Marriage should be an act between two people.

Now the church, which is an private entity, can choose to either condone and allow within their establishment or they can deny. It is freely their choice. The government cannot. Unfortunately too many people believe this country to be a democracy. It is not. It is a Republic. The key and significant difference is that the government is required to protect the rights of all citizens to a level of equality even if a small or large faction comprising of either a minority or majority chooses to fight against it.

The moment the government put laws into place saying that one group could get married and the other could not, it created a minority and gave that group a legal status and a point of argument.

As far as a business owner... I was one and there is nothing more annoying then having the government come in and tell you what you must do. If baking a cake for a gay couple for their wedding is a violation of the owners first amendment right then how is it the governments position that they must make the cake in order to not be discriminatory. That very position is discriminatory against religious freedom.

Just because someones religious position does not align with the political movement of the day does not mean it does not have validity and deserve protection within a Republic. Allow the market to decide. I personally would not purchase from that cake maker and I believe many others would not.

Our country was founded upon freedom. Not religious freedom or any other specific type. Just Freedom. If were going to create laws and many of which will have errors, then I say let us error on the side of freedom.

When it comes to this issue... your opinion is very close to being in line with mine. Whether you're a Christian business owner or gay couple... the gov't needs to get out of it altogether. Period. End of story.

If a gay couple wants to get married a church shouldn't be forced to marry them but they should be allowed to be "legally married in the eyes of the government."

If a gay couple wants a cake, a business owner shouldn't be forced to make them one. There are plenty of other bakers that would be more than happy to bake a cake for them but you can't infringe on somebody's religious beliefs.

What you are missing is that the gov't funds the roads, courts, safety workers etc. who protect the businesses. Since the US gov't has a responsibility to ensure all citizens have equal rights and the businesses could not function without the protections funded by the gov't, businesses cannot discriminate, this is what the civil rights act was built on.

Finally, people who want to use the free market (which I generally support) as this cure all fail to recognize that humans are fallible. This is why we set up the checks and balances to reduce fallibility in the officials we elect to govern our republic. Free market cure all's is a lazy political position that is all too typical in today's GOP (I am an independent btw). Similar to giving everyone easy access to a gun to solve gun violence.

I couldnt disagree more. To say that since a government supplies services, it is allowed to regulate all aspect relating would be equally true to state that since we now provide healthcare that we can regulate what people eat.
Furthermore I look at business as nothing more then an extension of someones personal liberties. Since roads, electric, police coverage and many other services also extend to my home, by your line of reasoning government has a right to tell me I cannot discriminate within my home. The founding fathers were actually very clear that the role of government wasnt to interfere within these types of situations. Federalist #13 I believe talked explicitly to the issues that would arise if government gives into factions.
Also when you speak of the "government" you are acting like they are a third party when they are not. They are a representation of us. Providing those services is a neutral position. It is required of them constitutionally to do so... that part is clear. Whereas regulating marriage isnt so clearly defined as a constitutional role.

Being gay and wanting a cake cannot overrule a business owners personal religious convictions. For the government to step in would require them to over rule one persons rights for another persons sexual orientation. The constitution is clear about religious rights whereas it has no mention of assuring someones sexual orientation. That are has been defined by case law.
Since there are many businesses that would give the gay couple a cake, they are still being provided a service. If the market decides to not support the person who refused, then so be it. That is a neutral punishment that isnt supported by a government that is required to defend the rights of that business owner.

In short laymens terms... the gay people may want a cake but they have no damn right to walk into anybodies business and tell them how they have to run it. Just like they have no right to walk into a church and demand to be married by them. Both are PRIVATE entities that use federally funded infrastructure. All have rights to use infrastructure without strings.

Well you should read the civil rights act and perhaps get yourself a law degree to confront the endless scholars and courts that have held it up.
03-31-2015 12:54 PM
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wavefan12 Offline
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Post: #50
RE: Would the NCAA move the 2016 WBB Tournament out of Indiana...
(03-31-2015 11:32 AM)blunderbuss Wrote:  Business can't function without government? That's rich.

So who is going to maintain the roads, provide a court system, provide defenders who cannot pay for their defense, provide sewers, clean water, fund education, pay for police, firefighters, hospitals, EMTs.....I suppose the free market will, right?

This is the type of rhetoric that is killing this country. Gov't is a bloated mess but conservatives want to paint everything with such a broad brush and use this sort of straw man arguments.
(This post was last modified: 03-31-2015 01:14 PM by wavefan12.)
03-31-2015 12:55 PM
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RE: Would the NCAA move the 2016 WBB Tournament out of Indiana...
(03-31-2015 12:08 PM)mtmedlin Wrote:  Wavefan12, I ask you this. All aspects of life and business in this country is impacted by a government run or paid for service. At what point does a person have freedom? At what point does a person allowed to operate as they wish? Where is that defined line?

The problem that you open up is that if government is allowed to regulate based upon the fact that they provide some type of service then you have essentially become a state run nation, which is de facto communism. True free choice has only one recourse and it is the open market. Government regulation in matters like this require the government to prioritize one persons wants over another persons rights.

Each person has a right to live their life as they see fit, but they dont have a right to do it wherever they want. A business owner pays rent and is therefore given rights within the space they now occupy. To come into it and demand that you have rights to live your life on their property is WRONG.

Our countries foundation is freedom and it is very scary thoughts like the ones you posted above that threaten that very foundation. In order for freedom to truly work, it must be given both ways. You can be who you want. You just dont have a right to do it on the property that I pay for.

There is a line that must be established when compromising between different liberties such as religion and commerce. This particular issue has essentially been adjudicated and in every scenario the line is basically that you cannot discriminate based on the person (gay, black, female etc) but can on the service (forcing a Muslim to make a cake with a picture of Mohammed on it).

Again you really need to read the basis for the civil rights act.
03-31-2015 01:00 PM
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wavefan12 Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Would the NCAA move the 2016 WBB Tournament out of Indiana...
(03-31-2015 12:43 PM)Policiious Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 09:00 AM)uhmump95 Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 08:12 AM)blunderbuss Wrote:  
(03-30-2015 08:59 PM)DefCONNOne Wrote:  
(03-30-2015 08:33 PM)IceJus10 Wrote:  Most states have included some form of civil rights law on their books to include sexual orientation along with race, creed, sex, religion, etc as being free from discrimination.

Indiana politicians passed this bill and the governor signed it into law as a response to the beginning of marriage equality in that state; knowing full well that their state DOES NOT have such an inclusion of sexual orientation as a civil right, and that passing this type of legislation would give bigots, under the guise of religion, the law backed right to discriminate against gays that would be forbidden under similar laws in other states.

If you asked me a few years ago, I'd have told you things like this were something we as a nation began to move past decades ago with the passing of sweeping civil rights laws in the 1960's, that led to the end of white/black entrances, separate drinking fountains and segregated schools. Now we have people trying to turn the clock back on America in a last gasp for relevance and power!

I've read this post 3 times, and I'm still stunned at the ignorance on display. Absolutely stunned.

I wish that I was. Unfortunately we have too many kids who have been brainwashed by government schools and political correctness.

There's exactly one issue homosexuals have a legitimate complaint about in some states. Even then there are legal work around to protect assets, inheritance, etc. The rest of it is just stirring **** up. If you don't agree with a businesses politics, don't shop there. Its a pretty simple concept.

Yeah, it's not "married" but it's not being lynched, beaten, separate water fountains, hanged....
There may not be separate "gay" water fountains, but gays have been lynched, and beaten to death for being gay.

What takes precedence? If I as a baker can refuse to bake a cake for a gay person because of religion, why can't I extrapolate it to race? The old testament has plenty of scripture having to do with separation of the races.

The Bible also mentions that gluttony and Slovenliness as being sinful. taking this law to it's extreme, it would permit a person's closely held religious belief to allow them to not serve Fat/overweight people

or people who have sex before marriage, that may rule out a few people.
03-31-2015 01:00 PM
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wavefan12 Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Would the NCAA move the 2016 WBB Tournament out of Indiana...
(03-31-2015 12:25 PM)Chappy Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 10:08 AM)blunderbuss Wrote:  Whether you're a Christian business owner or gay couple... the gov't needs to get out of it altogether. Period. End of story.

If a gay couple wants to get married a church shouldn't be forced to marry them but they should be allowed to be "legally married in the eyes of the government."

If a gay couple wants a cake, a business owner shouldn't be forced to make them one. There are plenty of other bakers that would be more than happy to bake a cake for them but you can't infringe on somebody's religious beliefs.

Exactly.

If I were a gay florist and the nutjobs from Westboro wanted me to make a floral arrangement for one of their protests, I wouldn't want the Government to force me to.

....and what about situations where a suitable alternative is not easily available. Like a rural hospital? Gay people should just be forced to leave? What if the hospital won't serve white people or black people, they should just have to find another place to live. That's very American, I am sure the founding fathers would be thrilled.
03-31-2015 01:02 PM
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Post: #54
RE: Would the NCAA move the 2016 WBB Tournament out of Indiana...
(03-31-2015 09:56 AM)blunderbuss Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 09:00 AM)uhmump95 Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 08:12 AM)blunderbuss Wrote:  
(03-30-2015 08:59 PM)DefCONNOne Wrote:  
(03-30-2015 08:33 PM)IceJus10 Wrote:  Most states have included some form of civil rights law on their books to include sexual orientation along with race, creed, sex, religion, etc as being free from discrimination.

Indiana politicians passed this bill and the governor signed it into law as a response to the beginning of marriage equality in that state; knowing full well that their state DOES NOT have such an inclusion of sexual orientation as a civil right, and that passing this type of legislation would give bigots, under the guise of religion, the law backed right to discriminate against gays that would be forbidden under similar laws in other states.

If you asked me a few years ago, I'd have told you things like this were something we as a nation began to move past decades ago with the passing of sweeping civil rights laws in the 1960's, that led to the end of white/black entrances, separate drinking fountains and segregated schools. Now we have people trying to turn the clock back on America in a last gasp for relevance and power!

I've read this post 3 times, and I'm still stunned at the ignorance on display. Absolutely stunned.

I wish that I was. Unfortunately we have too many kids who have been brainwashed by government schools and political correctness.

There's exactly one issue homosexuals have a legitimate complaint about in some states. Even then there are legal work around to protect assets, inheritance, etc. The rest of it is just stirring **** up. If you don't agree with a businesses politics, don't shop there. Its a pretty simple concept.

Yeah, it's not "married" but it's not being lynched, beaten, separate water fountains, hanged....
There may not be separate "gay" water fountains, but gays have been lynched, and beaten to death for being gay.

What takes precedence? If I as a baker can refuse to bake a cake for a gay person because of religion, why can't I extrapolate it to race? The old testament has plenty of scripture having to do with separation of the races.

Wrong. You're talking about one of 2 things. Either.....

1) the natural dispersion of the races / cultures / language after the flood / tower of Babel or...
2) "Mixed race marriage" being wrong in the sight of God. To simplify this as only a race issue is really missing the point. It wasn't so much to do with race as it was teachings regarding mixed religions in marriage. The simple fact is that people were segregated naturally into different groups based on religious and cultural similarities, not at all different than what we see today in almost every nation. This would be akin to modern day Christian Caucasian marrying someone from the Middle East. It's HIGHLY likely that the Middle Easterner is a Muslim. The scriptures taught against being "unequally yoked" to a non-believer, nothing more.

Ironically, the USA is easily the most integrated country on the planet today.

You're really reaching here... Your reference to scripture is NOT the same thing as gov't mandated segregation.

The flip side of that is there is plenty of scripture which clearly condemns homosexuality.
I am not reaching. The same scriptures that you just debunked (rather well IMO) were used to justify not allowing marriages between different races in this country.

The point is even in allowing religious freedom, there has to be some limit to keep some "fringe" beliefs in check.
03-31-2015 01:04 PM
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uhmump95 Offline
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Post: #55
RE: Would the NCAA move the 2016 WBB Tournament out of Indiana...
(03-31-2015 11:32 AM)blunderbuss Wrote:  Business can't function without government? That's rich.
There has to be some method of authority that creates an environment that allows businesses to function. I would hate to be a merchant and there are no laws that would protect me from getting robbed.
03-31-2015 01:09 PM
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blunderbuss Offline
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Post: #56
RE: Would the NCAA move the 2016 WBB Tournament out of Indiana...
(03-31-2015 11:55 AM)mtmedlin Wrote:  Since there are many businesses that would give the gay couple a cake, they are still being provided a service. If the market decides to not support the person who refused, then so be it. That is a neutral punishment that isnt supported by a government that is required to defend the rights of that business owner.

In short laymens terms... the gay people may want a cake but they have no damn right to walk into anybodies business and tell them how they have to run it. Just like they have no right to walk into a church and demand to be married by them. Both are PRIVATE entities that use federally funded infrastructure. All have rights to use infrastructure without strings.

BINGO!!!! THIS^^^ is why these cases are completely different than gov't supported racism that was seen in the south. Back then the gov't actually separated blacks and whites in schools, buses and other public facilities. Not the same as what's happening with so-called "gay rights" issues of today.
03-31-2015 01:21 PM
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blunderbuss Offline
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Post: #57
RE: Would the NCAA move the 2016 WBB Tournament out of Indiana...
(03-31-2015 01:04 PM)uhmump95 Wrote:  I am not reaching. The same scriptures that you just debunked (rather well IMO) were used to justify not allowing marriages between different races in this country.

The point is even in allowing religious freedom, there has to be some limit to keep some "fringe" beliefs in check.

I'm sure they were used, but that doesn't mean that they were right. There's a LONG history of injustice that was supposedly done in the name of Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc.

I agree with the second point too but a business owner not wanting to perform a service for a ceremony that specifically violates his religion is not exactly what I'd call a "fringe belief". That's simply being consistent with one's religious convictions so long as he / she is not inflicting harm on the other individual. If a gay individual simply wants a planner, cake, flowers or whatever they're not being locked out of the market by the government here. That's exactly what was happening to blacks in the deep south.
03-31-2015 01:26 PM
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wavefan12 Offline
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Post: #58
RE: Would the NCAA move the 2016 WBB Tournament out of Indiana...
(03-31-2015 01:21 PM)blunderbuss Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 11:55 AM)mtmedlin Wrote:  Since there are many businesses that would give the gay couple a cake, they are still being provided a service. If the market decides to not support the person who refused, then so be it. That is a neutral punishment that isnt supported by a government that is required to defend the rights of that business owner.

In short laymens terms... the gay people may want a cake but they have no damn right to walk into anybodies business and tell them how they have to run it. Just like they have no right to walk into a church and demand to be married by them. Both are PRIVATE entities that use federally funded infrastructure. All have rights to use infrastructure without strings.

BINGO!!!! THIS^^^ is why these cases are completely different than gov't supported racism that was seen in the south. Back then the gov't actually separated blacks and whites in schools, buses and other public facilities. Not the same as what's happening with so-called "gay rights" issues of today.

Not true at all. Blacks were refused services at hotels, restaurants etc. Again, in every scenario in which a person was refused a service because they are gay, the courts have sided with the gay person based on state and federal civil rights precedent. Now if you are claiming that you know better than the 1,000's of legal scholars that have sided with the consumer in these cases, then congrats on that.....the courts are very comfortable with the idea that owning a business in America doesn't give the business own carte blanche to do whatever they please, it's really that simple. I am largely libertarian but draw the line when it comes to discrimination, just as the courts have said over and over and over again.
(This post was last modified: 03-31-2015 01:30 PM by wavefan12.)
03-31-2015 01:29 PM
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blunderbuss Offline
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Post: #59
RE: Would the NCAA move the 2016 WBB Tournament out of Indiana...
(03-31-2015 01:02 PM)wavefan12 Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 12:25 PM)Chappy Wrote:  
(03-31-2015 10:08 AM)blunderbuss Wrote:  Whether you're a Christian business owner or gay couple... the gov't needs to get out of it altogether. Period. End of story.

If a gay couple wants to get married a church shouldn't be forced to marry them but they should be allowed to be "legally married in the eyes of the government."

If a gay couple wants a cake, a business owner shouldn't be forced to make them one. There are plenty of other bakers that would be more than happy to bake a cake for them but you can't infringe on somebody's religious beliefs.

Exactly.

If I were a gay florist and the nutjobs from Westboro wanted me to make a floral arrangement for one of their protests, I wouldn't want the Government to force me to.

....and what about situations where a suitable alternative is not easily available. Like a rural hospital? Gay people should just be forced to leave? What if the hospital won't serve white people or black people, they should just have to find another place to live. That's very American, I am sure the founding fathers would be thrilled.

Hospital isn't a good example - see Hippocratic Oath.
03-31-2015 01:30 PM
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Cubanbull Offline
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Post: #60
RE: Would the NCAA move the 2016 WBB Tournament out of Indiana...
I love how people say, its ok for a business to decide who they are going to serve because that person can always go to another baker etc. Well that is easy to say when you havent experience it and in some areas there might not be an alternative. Once you choose to have a for profit business you should not be able to discriminate on who you will serve. And as for government, well I can tell you that if it wasnt for some government intervention we could still be having slaves, separate water fountains etc. as a minority we see another side of government, one which keeps the minorities rights from being trampled.
Businesses are all about profit and you think that they will regulate themselves. There is a reason we have the EPA, many forget about rivers catching fire, Love Canal etc all of those where created by businesses putting profits ahead of everything.
I am all for restricting government but I also know that we need some government to create an equal playing ground for all of us.
(This post was last modified: 03-31-2015 01:33 PM by Cubanbull.)
03-31-2015 01:30 PM
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