(06-18-2015 07:43 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(06-18-2015 06:27 PM)Sultan of Euphonistan Wrote:  

(06-18-2015 05:29 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  

(06-18-2015 02:25 PM)uakronkid Wrote:  Keep in mind that the MAC is made up entirely of USNWR national-ranking public universities (and EMU) with enrollments between 20k and 30k. Suggesting the MAC would add a private university or one with an enrollment below 15k ignores what the MAC is.

FWIW, Miami has only about 15K undergrads plus a thousand or so grad students.

BGSU is in the upper teens as well.

I do think the general point stands the the MAC would be mostly interested in larger public universities with generally higher educational profiles (as in doctoral granting universities). I do think a private school could be possible but only if it was attractive enough as an institution and I do not think there are any of those left.

Dayton, Ohio has an enrollment of 11,368. That is more than some of the P5 private schools.

Fordham is at 15,097. I think both of them in a big large city helped them get that many students enrolled.

Dayton has the basketball chops that would make suitable in a way but it is a no go in football. The fact that it is private makes it more palatable than it otherwise would be since it is an additional Ohio based university (automatic no to any public OH schools here on out).

I don't see enough upside in Fordham sports to even begin to think they are wort considering.

For Dayton, it's the Big East or bust.

(06-17-2015 05:05 PM)SMUfan Wrote:  

(06-17-2015 01:56 PM)David Krumudgen Wrote:  

(06-17-2015 11:36 AM)SMUfan Wrote:  No Eastern Kentucky?

No way, eku... Has a high school gym and sits in the
Shadow of UK, there are a dozen better FCS choices better

I think they just redid their gym and are in the process of a major upgrade to the football stadium.

Name three better FCS choices in the MAC footprint?

EKU has redone Alumni Coluseum. Seats around 6500. We are redoing the stadium. When we first started talking about going FBS are administration said they were going to speak to both the MAC and the Sun Belt to get a take on what we need to do facility wise. IMHO, there is a reason we are concentrating on joining the Sun Belt and have not heard anything further about talking to the MAC. My supposition is that the MAC is not planning on doing anything at this point.

We did inquire to the MAC back in 1985 when NIU left. Nothing ever came of it.

(06-19-2015 09:23 PM)Sultan of Euphonistan Wrote:  

(06-18-2015 07:43 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(06-18-2015 06:27 PM)Sultan of Euphonistan Wrote:  

(06-18-2015 05:29 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  

(06-18-2015 02:25 PM)uakronkid Wrote:  Keep in mind that the MAC is made up entirely of USNWR national-ranking public universities (and EMU) with enrollments between 20k and 30k. Suggesting the MAC would add a private university or one with an enrollment below 15k ignores what the MAC is.

FWIW, Miami has only about 15K undergrads plus a thousand or so grad students.

BGSU is in the upper teens as well.

I do think the general point stands the the MAC would be mostly interested in larger public universities with generally higher educational profiles (as in doctoral granting universities). I do think a private school could be possible but only if it was attractive enough as an institution and I do not think there are any of those left.

Dayton, Ohio has an enrollment of 11,368. That is more than some of the P5 private schools.

Fordham is at 15,097. I think both of them in a big large city helped them get that many students enrolled.

Dayton has the basketball chops that would make suitable in a way but it is a no go in football. The fact that it is private makes it more palatable than it otherwise would be since it is an additional Ohio based university (automatic no to any public OH schools here on out).

I don't see enough upside in Fordham sports to even begin to think they are wort considering.

Fordham football have been very good the past couple of years.
2013 Fordham 30-29 Temple
They went to the FCS playoffs the last 2 years.

(06-20-2015 11:18 AM)EKUSteve Wrote:  

(06-17-2015 05:05 PM)SMUfan Wrote:  

(06-17-2015 01:56 PM)David Krumudgen Wrote:  

(06-17-2015 11:36 AM)SMUfan Wrote:  No Eastern Kentucky?

No way, eku... Has a high school gym and sits in the
Shadow of UK, there are a dozen better FCS choices better

I think they just redid their gym and are in the process of a major upgrade to the football stadium.

Name three better FCS choices in the MAC footprint?

EKU has redone Alumni Coluseum. Seats around 6500. We are redoing the stadium. When we first started talking about going FBS are administration said they were going to speak to both the MAC and the Sun Belt to get a take on what we need to do facility wise. IMHO, there is a reason we are concentrating on joining the Sun Belt and have not heard anything further about talking to the MAC. My supposition is that the MAC is not planning on doing anything at this point.

We did inquire to the MAC back in 1985 when NIU left. Nothing ever came of it.

You learn something new every day.

Another thought that Dayton could go big and go to the AAC. Better basketball in the AAC than there is in the MAC.

SMU, Tulsa, Tulane, Dayton= Privates

Mercer went from no scholarships to the Southern. Dayton could join the AAC for all sports and moved their fotball as an affiliate to the Big South until they can build and expand to join the AAC. It can work with planning.

The rub with the MAC up until recently was that it had too many schools in it than what its region could support with talent.

Turn the clock back to 1998. That year the Big East, MWC and CUSA all had 8 FB playing members while the MAC had 13. CUSA FB lineup was Cincinnati, Louisville, Southern Miss, Memphis, Tulane, Houston, East Carolina, Army in 1998. The Big East had Virginia Tech, Miami and WVU but after that schools like Rutgers and Temple had MAC level budgets in that day and age.

People would say the MAC had some good programs like Marshall and Toledo but never understood the point of the directional Michigan's. Kent/Akron were thought to be drags as well long before Akron got a new stadium and Kent reinvested into theirs. An 8 team MAC with Northern Ill, Ball State, Bowling Green, Toledo, Miami, Marshall, Ohio, Buffalo would be more regional week in and out and perhaps good enough to land one of those $1 million per school TV deals like the MWC did by breaking out of the WAC 16. The potential was not thought to be adding teams to the MAC but making some subtractions.

Aside from BCS or P5 league inclusion, the ultimate goal of any FBS conference was to score that 1 million per school or so ESPN deal. Once that TV deal has been obtained additional membership additions came to a halt. The only exception TCU flipping from WAC to CUSA to MWC with the largest market prize (DFW) that a southern or western conference could covet.

The G5 has added another new twist with $12 million CFP dollars split 12 ways. Before the incentive going to 12 was a National TV appearance championship game and 1 million or so tacked onto the rights fees. Now its at least worth 5 million to have 12 members because going from 8 to 9 to 10 to 11 to 12 schools is 4 million additional dollars plus whatever the championship game is worth. G5 conferences are double incentivized to move to 12.

Where does this leave the MAC today on the expansion issue? They are sitting at 12 members which is the CFP money per school cap. They have a $124 million dollar TV deal with ESPN and CBS. The MAC has the TV deal and the nice even 12 teams that every G5 conference desires.

The future of MAC realignment is going to be driven by what happens with the AAC. There are a few different scenarios that can play out.

1) Army joins the AAC along with Colorado State. Army may get jealous enough of Navy's TV deal with the AAC to the point where they feel compelled to join the AAC.

The fallout here is the MWC will want to get back to 12 with a school like UTEP. That would leave CUSA at 13. Would that be the straw that breaks the camel's back for Marshall? The MAC I could see willing to go to 14 for Marshall.

2) Cincinnati and Rice join the B12. AAC reloads with Buffalo but CUSA is now at an uneven 13 teams. Marshall unhappy with CUSA gives the MAC another look and rejoins as the 12th school to save on travel costs.

3) UConn leaves the AAC and joins the BE as an independent. Buffalo is selected by the AAC as a replacement. CUSA remains untouched.

If the MAC doesn't not have the leverage to bring Marshall back but needs another school they would look to James Madison since they have a MAC level football stadium in place and a new basketball arena on the way.

With 12 more years on a TV deal I can't see the MAC wanting to do anything except keep talks going with Marshall in case they become disaffected with CUSA.

Colorado State to the AAC...when there is no geographic relevance AND the MWC is making more $$? Ok...

The MAC will receive 10 Million in a year or two and by then CUSA will have a new contract around 20 million. Don't think Marshall will rejoin the MAC.

Don't forget about us hanging around. The AAC is the goal, but personally think if there are not strong indications of it happening by February, we should take a look at CUSA. They have some east coast teams and are closer to being a multi bid BB conference.

Our BB fans may not like leaving the A10, but our Football fans will be happy.

(06-19-2015 11:21 AM)Carolina_Low_Country Wrote:  

(06-19-2015 09:45 AM)SigNuTopper Wrote:  

(06-18-2015 06:47 PM)Carolina_Low_Country Wrote:  MAC should try to grab:
Western Kentucky or Marshall. Then maybe Middle Tennessee. If not just add EKU and James Madison. However I think the MAC should look south of Ohio and go into Kentucky, Tennessee, and Missouri for teams.

Why on earth would WKU, MU, & MTSU want to downgrade conferences?

More stability, less spread out, money probably about the same. Same minded institutions and public universities.

The only school on the MAC's wish list in that group is Marshall.

Marshall has a lot of tradition with the MAC and is within 3-4 hours of about half of the MAC in travel time. They also would bring to the MAC a fan base that would rank #1 upon joining the MAC instantly.

To sweeten the deal the MAC could throw Charlotte and Old Dominion into the mix.

Scenario:

B12 (Cincinnati, Rice)
AAC (Toledo)
MAC (Marshall, Charlotte, ODU)

MAC East: ODU, Buffalo, Charlotte, Kent St, Akron, Ohio, Marshall
MAC West: NIU, Ball State, CMU, WMU, EMU, Bowling Green, Miami

The MAC would then have a distinct Midwest Division and a Mid Atlantic Division. If you factor in ODU's potential in football recruiting and the direction Charlotte is going in basketball this configuration could very well be a winner.

Only additions in the East help the MAC's divisional alignment and only Marshall could really benefit from the travel costs. Travel wouldn't be bad for Charlotte either but you would think they would wan to align in a southern based conference. ODU would probably want to be aligned with FAU/FIU other beach area schools however they are in the MAC for wrestling.

A Marshall, James Madison, Delaware combo is also another one that could work for the MAC. I don't see JMU and UD by themselves worth it for the MAC to expand for but if it was to package deal with Marshall then sure.

(06-20-2015 07:46 PM)LSUtah Wrote:  Colorado State to the AAC...when there is no geographic relevance AND the MWC is making more $$? Ok...

The way the MWC deal works is every school gets about 800k base and then bonus pool money paid on ESPN appearances. It works great for Boise State. They are netting 3.5 million in TV. For other schools not so much.

The AAC has equal revenue sharing, both on the TV deal and NCAA tournament credits. That was part of the incentive of convincing schools like Tulsa who weren't sure they wanted to be a part of it to join.

How I see this working is Army knocks on the AAC's door...the AAC's new TV deal has financial projections of 4 million and to balance divisions they need someone in the West. That is where I could see Colorado State fitting in to the AAC with a new stadium. Also CSU acts a footer for future western expansion down the road or at least BYU. Army and BYU are the prize schools and if either knocked on the AAC's door they are in.

(06-20-2015 07:54 PM)Steve1981 Wrote:  The MAC will receive 10 Million in a year or two and by then CUSA will have a new contract around 20 million. Don't think Marshall will rejoin the MAC.

Don't forget about us hanging around. The AAC is the goal, but personally think if there are not strong indications of it happening by February, we should take a look at CUSA. They have some east coast teams and are closer to being a multi bid BB conference.

Our BB fans may not like leaving the A10, but our Football fans will be happy.

CUSA got 14 between a Fox/CBS split last time. With CBS pulling out of doing direct deals and ESPN already having a full house with the MWC, MAC, AAC at the G5 level they won't be bidding either. CUSA would be lucky to get 10 million for its next deal in a far flung league.

UMass should take a look at CUSA. The whole UAB situation is not over yet. What I mean by not over isn't that I believe UAB will be kicked out of the conference but in the short term CUSA may need a 14th football school while UAB transitions back to the top level which could be a few years. UMass then could fill a membership void in CUSA with the idea the league could go to 16 later down the road once UAB comes back online.

Marshall back to the MAC isn't very likely but a chance exists. CUSA hasn't signed its new TV contract yet. I'd say the chances are less than 10% that it would be bad enough for them to beg the MAC to take them back. Regardless they are the only school that could conceivably join the MAC that would be worth going beyond 12 for.

Another Scenario:

B12 (Cincinnati, Memphis)
BE (Connecticut)
AAC (UMass, ODU, Toledo)
MAC (James Madison)
CUSA (Texas State)

In this scenario, CUSA becomes less attractive to Marshall while the MAC more so as they add James Madison. The MAC out performs CUSA in FB/BB and in another 7-8 years is in a position to renegotiate their contract. The MAC offers Marshall and Charlotte as a package deal to join with no entrance fees.

There is no reason for the MAC to go beyond 12 unless they are getting an FBS school to join all sports. JMU will always be there if they lose a school in the East. If Northern Illinois goes the backup is Illinois State. Both Illinois St and Missouri St have undergone stadium renovations recently.

The last thing the MAC would want to do is add Eastern Kentucky to make the conference look more mid major. Going with them and JMU to 14 makes no sense whatsoever.

With Marshall, the MAC could add them if they lost a school, pair them with JMU to to go to 14 full members, or package them in with Charlotte/ODU maybe even Appalachian State. 10 years ago JMU wasn't a FBS ready option on the MAC's East flank. JMU was very close to joining the MAC last year.

And the MAC would simply have more room at the Inn if some of its members left. If NIU, Toledo, Buffalo and Akron all hit the exits at one time the MAC could take in UNI, Illinois St, Missouri St and Southern Illinois. Gobble up the MVC.

(06-17-2015 10:06 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(06-17-2015 09:56 PM)BearcatJerry Wrote:  

(06-17-2015 09:46 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(06-17-2015 07:21 PM)Miami (Oh) Yeah ! Wrote:  After UMass was released and before the new TV contract, MAC Commish Steinbrecher said in an interview that there would be no more football only arrangements and that the MAC was set at 12 unless a "package" of institutions that added value to the conference presented themselves. No more odd numbers. I believe JMU would have been added along with UMass had UMass accepted. They didn't and unless ESPN agreed to add a few more million per year to the contract, the MAC won't be adding anybody that would split the TV and CFP money.

JMU, Delaware, Stony Brook, and Albany would make a nice package. Maybe Army and UMass could join as an affiliates then?

In what world would JMU, Delaware, SUNY-Stony Brook, and Albany make "a nice package"? Seriously.

Academically and with potential eyeballs, its like a package of Rices. Army is the key and they wouldn't accept without East Coast schools that they can beat. Some of those schools already are ahead of Cincy and Temple acàdemically, which Army wants.

None of those schools are ahead of Cincinnati academically. Cincinnati is #46 in U.S. research spending, and by most research rankings is in the top 200 in the world (by some measures it's in the top 100). Delaware and Buffalo come close to this, but none of the rest are even in the same ballpark.

None of those schools come close to UC's size, and none but Delaware are even in the same ballpark for wealth:

School, Students, endowment
Albany - 17k, 30million
Stony Brook - 20k, 180 million
Delaware - 21k, 1.34 billion
JMU - 21k, 78 million
UC - 43k, 1.2 billion

UC also has 277,000 living alumni (more than all but 4 ACC and Big 12 teams).

There's a lot of great schools in the MAC. Other than the Blue Hens there's no reason the MAC should want anything to do with the schools on that list.

My theory on the MAC's football performance - the MAC had a lot of great teams in the 90s and early 00s. Then after 2004 the MAC sucked for years.

I think it's because UC joined the Big East and started getting all the 2nd tier Ohio players. Before, we were competing on the same level for recruits. Time will tell if we are able to keep our advantage now that we're in the AAC.

NIU has had some great teams that have thrived on their monopoly on 2nd tier recruits in Illinois and Wisconsin - this year they their roster only has 1 Ohio, 6 Indiana, and 4 Michigan players. NIU should pray that Illinois State and Missouri State never jump to FBS.

MAC Expansion Candidates by Conference

CUSA
Marshall (former member, slim chances to return)
Old Dominion (evaluated by the MAC, partial sport member)
Charlotte (unlikely but could like the basketball)
Western Kentucky (rejected by the MAC in 2005)
Middle Tennessee (rejected the MAC in 2005)

SBC
Appalachian State (evaluated, long term possibility)
Arkansas State (Offered in 1997 but declined, unlikely at this point)
Georgia State (unlikely, could fit in a package deal)

MVC
Illinois State (evaluated in late 90's, logical replacement for NIU)
Southern Illinois (evaluated in late 90's, long term possibility)
Northern Iowa (slim chance, long term possibility)
Missouri State (slim chance, long term possibility)
North Dakota State (unlikely, long term possibility)

Colonial
James Madison (tentative offer by the MAC pending UMass joining)
Delaware (evaluated by the MAC, discussed in package deals)
Stony Brook (evaluated by the MAC, discussed in package deals)
Towson (slim chance, discussed in package deals)
New Hampshire (unlikely, discussed in package deals)

Beyond talking about Marshall as a target for the MAC another FBS school that might be worth the MAC bringing it is Appalachian State. If the SBC can't get a decent TV deal for itself and Appalachian State were to become a Boise State I could see the MAC looking their direction.

With Appalachian State the MAC could pair them with JMU or Marshall. Imagine if Marshall is an access bowl contender out of CUSA and Appalachian State is one out of the SBC then the MAC adds both of them to become a Top G5 league.

(06-20-2015 09:22 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  My theory on the MAC's football performance - the MAC had a lot of great teams in the 90s and early 00s. Then after 2004 the MAC sucked for years.

I think it's because UC joined the Big East and started getting all the 2nd tier Ohio players. Before, we were competing on the same level for recruits. Time will tell if we are able to keep our advantage now that we're in the AAC.

NIU has had some great teams that have thrived on their monopoly on 2nd tier recruits in Illinois and Wisconsin - this year they their roster only has 1 Ohio, 6 Indiana, and 4 Michigan players. NIU should pray that Illinois State and Missouri State never jump to FBS.

This post is stupid.

First off, NIU has never recruited the hard outside of Illinois and Wisconsin outside of a few players. They recruit bigger players from Illinois and Wisconsin and alot of the skill players are 2nd tier players from the south. Since they were in the Orange Bowl, there has been TONS of interest from players down there if you actually took the time to look.

Also, Illinois State will never be FBS.

(06-20-2015 09:12 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(06-17-2015 10:06 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(06-17-2015 09:56 PM)BearcatJerry Wrote:  

(06-17-2015 09:46 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(06-17-2015 07:21 PM)Miami (Oh) Yeah ! Wrote:  After UMass was released and before the new TV contract, MAC Commish Steinbrecher said in an interview that there would be no more football only arrangements and that the MAC was set at 12 unless a "package" of institutions that added value to the conference presented themselves. No more odd numbers. I believe JMU would have been added along with UMass had UMass accepted. They didn't and unless ESPN agreed to add a few more million per year to the contract, the MAC won't be adding anybody that would split the TV and CFP money.

JMU, Delaware, Stony Brook, and Albany would make a nice package. Maybe Army and UMass could join as an affiliates then?

In what world would JMU, Delaware, SUNY-Stony Brook, and Albany make "a nice package"? Seriously.

Academically and with potential eyeballs, its like a package of Rices. Army is the key and they wouldn't accept without East Coast schools that they can beat. Some of those schools already are ahead of Cincy and Temple acàdemically, which Army wants.

None of those schools are ahead of Cincinnati academically. Cincinnati is #46 in U.S. research spending, and by most research rankings is in the top 200 in the world (by some measures it's in the top 100). Delaware and Buffalo come close to this, but none of the rest are even in the same ballpark.

None of those schools come close to UC's size, and none but Delaware are even in the same ballpark for wealth:

School, Students, endowment
Albany - 17k, 30million
Stony Brook - 20k, 180 million
Delaware - 21k, 1.34 billion
JMU - 21k, 78 million
UC - 43k, 1.2 billion

UC also has 277,000 living alumni (more than all but 4 ACC and Big 12 teams).

There's a lot of great schools in the MAC. Other than the Blue Hens there's no reason the MAC should want anything to do with the schools on that list.

Stony Brook and Buffalo are AAU, while Cincinnati is uninvited.

History has a major role in endowments: Stony Brook and Albany didn't exist until the 60s, barely enough time for wealthy deceased grads to bequeath anything. JMU used to be a women's college. SB and Albany by state law couldn't give athletic scholarships til the 90's. That had a major impact on the fan growth, as it mainly went to Syracuse, Notre Dame, and pro teams.

Imagine if the SUNY schools would have been open 150 years ago and allowed to progress naturally. They each would have been a Penn State eguivalent with the academics of Cornell.

Edit: Didn't realize that Albany spent its first 118 years operating as a Normal School, and became a Doctoral institution of SUNY in 1962.

(06-20-2015 09:42 PM)RedandBlackAttack Wrote:  

(06-20-2015 09:22 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  My theory on the MAC's football performance - the MAC had a lot of great teams in the 90s and early 00s. Then after 2004 the MAC sucked for years.

I think it's because UC joined the Big East and started getting all the 2nd tier Ohio players. Before, we were competing on the same level for recruits. Time will tell if we are able to keep our advantage now that we're in the AAC.

NIU has had some great teams that have thrived on their monopoly on 2nd tier recruits in Illinois and Wisconsin - this year they their roster only has 1 Ohio, 6 Indiana, and 4 Michigan players. NIU should pray that Illinois State and Missouri State never jump to FBS.

This post is stupid.

First off, NIU has never recruited the hard outside of Illinois and Wisconsin outside of a few players. They recruit bigger players from Illinois and Wisconsin and alot of the skill players are 2nd tier players from the south. Since they were in the Orange Bowl, there has been TONS of interest from players down there if you actually took the time to look.

Also, Illinois State will never be FBS.

Cincy's progression has undoubtably affected the Ohio MAC schools in football.

A NIU fan stating Ill St will never be FBS shows personal concern and ignorance. Ill St has shown a will for FBS, and is probably a better match for the MAC academically than NIU.

(06-20-2015 09:58 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(06-20-2015 09:42 PM)RedandBlackAttack Wrote:  

(06-20-2015 09:22 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  My theory on the MAC's football performance - the MAC had a lot of great teams in the 90s and early 00s. Then after 2004 the MAC sucked for years.

I think it's because UC joined the Big East and started getting all the 2nd tier Ohio players. Before, we were competing on the same level for recruits. Time will tell if we are able to keep our advantage now that we're in the AAC.

NIU has had some great teams that have thrived on their monopoly on 2nd tier recruits in Illinois and Wisconsin - this year they their roster only has 1 Ohio, 6 Indiana, and 4 Michigan players. NIU should pray that Illinois State and Missouri State never jump to FBS.

This post is stupid.

First off, NIU has never recruited the hard outside of Illinois and Wisconsin outside of a few players. They recruit bigger players from Illinois and Wisconsin and alot of the skill players are 2nd tier players from the south. Since they were in the Orange Bowl, there has been TONS of interest from players down there if you actually took the time to look.

Also, Illinois State will never be FBS.

Cincy's progression has undoubtably affected the Ohio MAC schools in football.

A NIU fan stating Ill St will never be FBS shows personal concern and ignorance. Ill St has shown a will for FBS, and is probably a better match for the MAC academically than NIU.

Lol I'm not concerned, I'm just stating the truth.

Illinois State could actually have multiple options for FBS. Imagine this version of the Sun Belt:

West - Missouri St, Illinois St, Arkansas St, Texas St, New Mexico St, ULM
East - Louisiana, South Alabama, Troy, Georgia State, Georgia Southern, App State, Eastern Kentucky
Non-football: UALR, Texas-Arlington

This pretty well rips the heart out of the MVC, takes the only good program from the WAC, and takes one of the better programs from the OVC.

You can do the same thing with Conference USA, and even have the option of putting Illinois State or a rebooted UAB in the east, although it would push C-USA to 16:

West - UTEP, UTSA, Rice, North Texas, Louisiana Tech, Southern Miss, Missouri State, ISU/UAB
East - WKU, MTSU, ISU/UAB, Marshall, FAU, FIU, Charlotte, Old Dominion