As long as the NCAA is going to allow FBS independents, I think Liberty should challenge the rule of a new FBS teams must be in a conference. It appears when the Sun Belt is done, that Idaho will be kicked out. That will make Army, BYU, UMASS, ND, and Idaho Independents. I would think the NCAA needs to get at least 1-3 additional teams to help with Independent Scheduling. I could,see Liberty (East coast), NDSU (North Central US), Wyoming (Central US), Abilene Christian South (West coast) and E. Washington (Pacific)

Liberty should get with these schools and see if there are willing to collaborate, or others that might want to go this route. I can see Liberty become another BYU type of Independent School that with a following and success. Sadly, I think the Flames are forced to go the Independent route first. With success, future conference opportunity will come.

Wishing the Flames a great season this year!

Thanks wolf. I believe this is becoming the thought of most Liberty fans. A conference invite isn't coming anytime soon so we'll be forced to go an alternative route. If the SB only takes 1, that could leave EKU or CCU out of the picture as well.

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I think CCU and EKU will be offered. I was really surprised to hear they want to keep NMSU. To me cutting them loose with Idaho makes more sense. In my mind the third spot should be going to Liberty, JMU or Missouri St. I didn't realize Tx St was so close to Austin. I had thought it was in West Texas. While I would like to see Liberty, I think the most sense for the third team would be Miz St if they take EKU and CCU. They fit better in a West Division.

I read that Troy's president has recently stated they would only be taking one member. I believe that member will CCU. Just my opinion.

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(08-10-2015 08:10 AM)msm96wolf Wrote:  As long as the NCAA is going to allow FBS independents, I think Liberty should challenge the rule of a new FBS teams must be in a conference. It appears when the Sun Belt is done, that Idaho will be kicked out. That will make Army, BYU, UMASS, ND, and Idaho Independents. I would think the NCAA needs to get at least 1-3 additional teams to help with Independent Scheduling. I could,see Liberty (East coast), NDSU (North Central US), Wyoming (Central US), Abilene Christian South (West coast) and E. Washington (Pacific)

Liberty should get with these schools and see if there are willing to collaborate, or others that might want to go this route. I can see Liberty become another BYU type of Independent School that with a following and success. Sadly, I think the Flames are forced to go the Independent route first. With success, future conference opportunity will come.

Wishing the Flames a great season this year!

Wolf, LU with it's own law school, FBS ready facilities, meeting FBS standards of attendance, sports, plus full COA, is primed to challenge the indy route. A FBS football indy status, or FBS football only conference makes the most sense. I'm betting LU is poised to act quickly and decisively when the SBC invite comes out and it's not LU. That team(s) meeting fewer FBS requirements and receiving an invite is going to be poking the sleeping lion.

If LU made news with it's recent convocation invites of Bernie Saunders and Ted Cruz for a week or two, the LU/NCAA challenge will last much longer and keep this issue in the forefront. LU will gain more from the challenge than the NCAA, and the NCAA will lose more from the challenge than LU.

It's discriminatory, unfair and arbitrary and reeks of the good ole boy, back room, smoke filled room politics, not meeting uniform standards.

I don't understand how the NCAA allows independent football teams but a conference invitation is necessary to reclassify to FBS. They need rules to keep schools from floundering at the FBS level but we won't know until a school moves up.

When was the last time the NCAA forced an FBS school to reclassify to FCS due to not meeting required standards? I don't know of a time it ever has enforced it's own rules. Eastern Michigan averaged around 4,000 a game last year, but remain FBS. I don't think it would be prolonged if LU challenges the FBS status. I think the NCAA would lose and lose decidedly.

An issue I've thought about is without a conference, we'll have no bowl game or championship game at the end of the year. We could get creative and try to schedule the same team at the end of every season and make that our "bowl game". One of the military academies or go all out and schedule Hawaii.

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(08-10-2015 11:44 AM)GE and MTS Wrote:  I don't understand how the NCAA allows independent football teams but a conference invitation is necessary to reclassify to FBS. They need rules to keep schools from floundering at the FBS level but we won't know until a school moves up.

My guess is this will be new, uncharted territory for LU and the NCAA. A complete revamping of the existing rules is inevitable. We can take the current rules and regs and toss them out the window. To those who quote the current statues as the enforceable guidelines, they are missing the bigger picture. For the reasons stated for dismissal of FBS, such as non-enforcement of regs (i.e. attendance), that creates a questionable point for LU.

We can expect a complete challenge to the indy rule, not only that would effect Liberty, but a re-write of the full rules and regs. Then enforcement of those rules would be required, unlike today. If a teams did meet the guidelines or criteria, they should receive a type of probation, then ultimately a reduction of classification if they did not improve.

This has many facets and will be developed and expanded far beyond my limited knowledge. But any reasonable sports fan, who has basic information about the existing structure, friend or foe of Liberty, can see the inequity of the existing policy.

(08-10-2015 11:44 AM)GE and MTS Wrote:  I don't understand how the NCAA allows independent football teams but a conference invitation is necessary to reclassify to FBS. They need rules to keep schools from floundering at the FBS level but we won't know until a school moves up.

I can tell you that the rule was introduced because a large number of FCS teams that were not ready were attempting to move up to FBS, despite barely being able to field a program, and having no chance of being competitive. It was watering down the division, so the NCAA Stepped in.

LIberty is a rare case that has everything necessary to move, the question is how do they convince the NCAA to let them move up, because there is little chance the must have a conference rule gets repealed.

If a school is meeting the necessary requirements (things that are in their control) why not allow them to move up? If a school has the necessary attendance, is compliant with title IX, has the support staff in place for the student athletes why not allow them to pursue big time athletics? The move ups are taking all the risk.

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You would think so, and it makes some sense. However, isn't FBS or NCAA a privately organized institution? I don't think it's a public entity. Therefore, they can make up their own rules for teams to abide by. Those rules may seem unfair, but those are the rules none-the-less. I could be mistaken though. It'd be like someone coming into Liberty and doing their own thing, even if it violates Liberty policy. The Liberty admin wouldn't allow that to happen... for long at least. I view what we are experiencing to something similar.

I have a couple of attorney friends and I presented this situation to them. Both felt strongly that the NCAA wouldn't allow this to get into litigation because they wouldn't win. First thing is and forgive me if I don't remember all the legal jargon, but even as a private institution they cannot do harm to a member that's already been invited into the organization. Liberty has been in the private orginization for years. Secondly, Liberty could easily prove the NCAA is not enforcing set standards or rules already set. Case in point, no FBS school has ever been reclassified from FBS to FCS. Also not enforcing attendance regulations.

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(08-11-2015 08:29 AM)army56mike Wrote:  You would think so, and it makes some sense. However, isn't FBS or NCAA a privately organized institution? I don't think it's a public entity. Therefore, they can make up their own rules for teams to abide by. Those rules may seem unfair, but those are the rules none-the-less. I could be mistaken though. It'd be like someone coming into Liberty and doing their own thing, even if it violates Liberty policy. The Liberty admin wouldn't allow that to happen... for long at least. I view what we are experiencing to something similar.

NCAA would never let this get to court because they would rather let not let a judge decide anything. Generally though, schools never try because the legal fees would be too much.

Right chief, with Liberty having its own lawyers with the law school I don't see that being an issue.

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On a lark, I searched this morning about the NCAA being determined a public or private entity. It is a private entity, and does have safeguards in place it does not have to meet that a public entity would, but the issue of a private entity, receiving funds from a public entity as a regulatory body raises the issue of the NCAA being considered a "state actor". I did scan an article written during 2007 from academia (B. David Ridpath, Ohio University; Mark Nagel, University of South Carolina; Richard Southall,
University of Memphis) that is full of legalize but is written enough for the layman to draw some conclusions. It does seem the NCAA is able to be challenged by this article, New Rules for a New Ballgame: Legislative and Judicial Rationales for
Revamping the NCAA’s Enforcement Process. The link if interested: http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/law/el...r1/ridpath

Good find.

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When and if anybody but LU gets the invite, we might as well surround the wagons and get ready to hunker down for the indy path. Being optimistic, who knows, maybe LU may benefit from this path. It is tough to see the upside when the route to get there is unlike everyone else. Those schools receiving the invite(s) will be welcomed with open arms and it will be peace n' love and the James Gang, for a while.

For LU, without the invite, the school will Headline News on ESPN, all sports media and national news. The invite would be so much easier. But, one has to play the cards they are dealt. With the indy path, I'm still betting that LU will benefit the most and the NCAA will weakly cave in. If the NCAA is wise, they'll already be planning for the possible inevitability.

Aren't we making a great assumption? I don't believe any Liberty official has even mentioned a word about seeking a path to FBS through Independence. It has all been message board speculation. For all we know there is no plan to seek FBS Independence and their focus may be on waiting for another conference to show interest as they continue to strengthen LU athletics. I just don't want to keep getting my hopes up. I'd rather stay on an even keel.

Great point. We all may be getting ahead of ourselves. The one thing that sticks out to me is, why would we pay fcoa if we're staying at the FCS level.

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I see it as just another example of our commitment to excellence.