http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/NCAANewsArchive/...820215.pdf

Check out this link about the 1982 forced reclassification that nabbed the Ivy League, the Socon, the Soutland, and the MVC

It very clearly lays out the 4 requirements to be 1-A, and you must meet one of the following

1. Have 17K average home attendance every year for the past 4 years

2. Have 17K average home attendance in 1 of the past 4 years AND play in a 30K stadium

3. Have 20K average home AND away attendance for the past 4 years if your stadium is less than 30K OR 1 in the past 4 years if your stadium is 30K or greater

4. Play in a minimum of a 6 team conference where at least half the members meet 1-a classification guidelines

The Big West stayed alive due to rule #4 and that explains how they ended up being a mismash in the late 80's and early 90's of wayward football programs.

The MAC did to as they did not take no for an answer and schools like NIU and Bowling Green fought the decision until the MAC met rule 4
http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1982/...division-i

Its funny though looking at the schools that were reclassified, most of them have made their way back to 1A FBS level. Ashame that end result of all this was getting rid of the IVY's at the 1A level. They could have really provided a boost in the Northeast during the BCS and now the Playoff era.

http://stanforddailyarchive.com/cgi-bin/...3-01.2.38#

Here is one more link that provides a breakdown of how close each downgraded conference was. The MVC had 3 out of their 8 meet the requirement. Crazy how different things would have been if one more school of Drake, Illinois St, Southern Illinois, West Texas st, and Indiana St could have hung in there with Tulsa, New Mexico St, and Wichita St to qualify the whole MVC

(09-01-2015 11:37 PM)solohawks Wrote:  The MAC did to as they did not take no for an answer and schools like NIU and Bowling Green fought the decision until the MAC met rule 4
http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1982/...division-i

Woah. The great unsolved mystery about why half the MAC moved down for 1 season has been solved. Toledo, CMU made their numbers. Miami, WMU, NIU and BG came close with NIU and BG denied appeals.

Ohio, Ball State, Kent St and EMU were not anywhere close to the criteria to stay Division 1-A.

The MAC was also making 70k per school from its TV deal back in 1982. That is the same as 700k for the entire conference. This lack of salary history impacted the conference all the way up until present times.

The MAC was making 1.4 million per year prior to the new ESPN deal which is paying 10 million per year. In the deal prior to that (before 2008) the MAC was making only 590k from ESPN.

(09-02-2015 12:01 AM)solohawks Wrote:  http://stanforddailyarchive.com/cgi-bin/...3-01.2.38#

Here is one more link that provides a breakdown of how close each downgraded conference was. The MVC had 3 out of their 8 meet the requirement. Crazy how different things would have been if one more school of Drake, Illinois St, Southern Illinois, West Texas st, and Indiana St could have hung in there with Tulsa, New Mexico St, and Wichita St to qualify the whole MVC

Or alternatively if the good attendance schools of the MAC and MVC could have merged to stay together.

Toledo and Central Michigan moved over to the Missouri Valley giving it 5/10 needed to stay at the top level while the other MAC schools were demoted down.....

Yeah the MAC fought like crazy. Apparently BG and NIU were expanding their stadiums and wanted to be given a waiver since they were actively trying to meet the rules. I wish the MVC had fought it too. You could argue that NMSU has never recovered from being forced out of the MVC to remain 1a

(09-02-2015 12:21 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  

(09-02-2015 12:01 AM)solohawks Wrote:  http://stanforddailyarchive.com/cgi-bin/...3-01.2.38#

Here is one more link that provides a breakdown of how close each downgraded conference was. The MVC had 3 out of their 8 meet the requirement. Crazy how different things would have been if one more school of Drake, Illinois St, Southern Illinois, West Texas st, and Indiana St could have hung in there with Tulsa, New Mexico St, and Wichita St to qualify the whole MVC

Or alternatively if the good attendance schools of the MAC and MVC could have merged to stay together.

Toledo and Central Michigan moved over to the Missouri Valley giving it 5/10 needed to stay at the top level while the other MAC schools were demoted down.....

kind of like what the Big Sky wanted to do with the WAC. Have the 2 work together with 1 being the 1a conference and the other being the 1aa conference. That would have been very interesting

Makes you wonder how things would have worked out if all the teams in the MAC and MVC would have just accepted a different fate and dropped down to 1-AA together like the IVY did.

It would have saved NMSU especially some heartache of being the perpetual abandoned orphan of Division 1-A.

NIU too for all their efforts still can not get their attendance up after all these years.

Since the rules changed and have been lowered than the 30,000 stadium and 17K requirement. Why have they not allow the schools that were forced down to be allowed to come back up? West Texas State could still be in D1 instead of D2.

This was like a death sentence to West Texas State to have their sports in D1.

(09-02-2015 02:32 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  Since the rules changed and have been lowered than the 30,000 stadium and 17K requirement. Why have they not allow the schools that were forced down to be allowed to come back up? West Texas State could still be in D1 instead of D2.

This was like a death sentence to West Texas State to have their sports in D1.

Why didnt west texas st fight it out in 1aa?

(09-01-2015 11:37 PM)solohawks Wrote:  Its funny though looking at the schools that were reclassified, most of them have made their way back to 1A FBS level. Ashame that end result of all this was getting rid of the IVY's at the 1A level. They could have really provided a boost in the Northeast during the BCS and now the Playoff era.

I haven't counted, but I don't believe that "most" have made it back to FBS. From the SoCon only Marshall and App.St. have returned. From the Southland, La.Tech, ULL, and Ark. St. have returned. No Ivies or independents have returned. I don't believe the MAC schools were ever actually forced to move down since they were somehow able to qualify as a conference rather than on an individual school basis.

With respect to the Ivies, I believe the reclassification actually helped Eastern football. There were 20 D1 schools in the Northeast prior to reclassification, and really only 5 or so were committed to playing at a national level.

The Ivy League itself was committed to playing nonscholarship ball with academic entrance requirements far higher than applicable in any other conference. They were not competitive nationally and, as a result, had lost significant fan interest. I also believe the major conferences were tired of sharing NCAA TV money with the Ivies, which brought nothing to the table for the national TV package. This is why they wrote the rules to kick the Ivies out. 1-AA was created as a soft landing place so the Ivies and others would still officially be D1.

The reclassification forced those borderline schools that wanted to play 1-A to raise their game. Rutgers and Temple, in particular, dramatically increase their commitment to competing. BC, although not borderline, also substantially increased its commitment. Rutgers and Temple had previously played Ivy level schedules against Princeton, Colgate and others. BC annually played Holy Cross, Villanova and UMass. Those rivalries were replaced by games against each other and the stronger Eastern Independents, i.e., Penn St., Pitt, Syracuse, and WVU.

Penn St. even tried to organize a 1-A Eastern football conference, but failed largely because of Syracuse, BC and Pitt's preference to play in the Big East for basketball. This ultimately led to Penn State joining the B1G, which in turn prompted the formation of the Big East Football Conference.

(09-02-2015 08:41 AM)orangefan Wrote:  I haven't counted, but I don't believe that "most" have made it back to FBS.

FWIW, the count on the 37 schools in that link that were listed as being reclassified to D-1AA:

Ivy League (8) - Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Harvard, Penn, Princeton, Yale

MAC schools "who wound up not really being reclassified" (6) - Ball State, BGSU, Eastern Michigan, Kent State, Northern Illinois, Ohio University

Reclassified than back to D-1A/FBS (6) - Appalachian State, Arkansas State, Louisiana Tech, Marshall, North Texas, Louisiana-Monroe

Reclassified and still D-1AA/FCS (15) - The Citadel, Colgate, Drake, ETSU, Furman, Holy Cross, Illinois State, Indiana State, Lamar, Richmond, Southern Illinois, Chattanooga, VMI, Western Carolina, William & Mary

Reclassified and currently no football team (1) - Texas-Arlington

Reclassified and currently D2 (1) - West Texas State

(09-02-2015 08:41 AM)orangefan Wrote:  

(09-01-2015 11:37 PM)solohawks Wrote:  Its funny though looking at the schools that were reclassified, most of them have made their way back to 1A FBS level. Ashame that end result of all this was getting rid of the IVY's at the 1A level. They could have really provided a boost in the Northeast during the BCS and now the Playoff era.

I haven't counted, but I don't believe that "most" have made it back to FBS. From the SoCon only Marshall and App.St. have returned. From the Southland, La.Tech, ULL, and Ark. St. have returned. No Ivies or independents have returned. I don't believe the MAC schools were ever actually forced to move down since they were somehow able to qualify as a conference rather than on an individual school basis.

With respect to the Ivies, I believe the reclassification actually helped Eastern football. There were 20 D1 schools in the Northeast prior to reclassification, and really only 5 or so were committed to playing at a national level.

The Ivy League itself was committed to playing nonscholarship ball with academic entrance requirements far higher than applicable in any other conference. They were not competitive nationally and, as a result, had lost significant fan interest. I also believe the major conferences were tired of sharing NCAA TV money with the Ivies, which brought nothing to the table for the national TV package. This is why they wrote the rules to kick the Ivies out. 1-AA was created as a soft landing place so the Ivies and others would still officially be D1.

The reclassification forced those borderline schools that wanted to play 1-A to raise their game. Rutgers and Temple, in particular, dramatically increase their commitment to competing. BC, although not borderline, also substantially increased its commitment. Rutgers and Temple had previously played Ivy level schedules against Princeton, Colgate and others. BC annually played Holy Cross, Villanova and UMass. Those rivalries were replaced by games against each other and the stronger Eastern Independents, i.e., Penn St., Pitt, Syracuse, and WVU.

Penn St. even tried to organize a 1-A Eastern football conference, but failed largely because of Syracuse, BC and Pitt's preference to play in the Big East for basketball. This ultimately led to Penn State joining the B1G, which in turn prompted the formation of the Big East Football Conference.

Interesting topic and one that brings back bad memories.

For the Southland, ULL, Arkansas State, and Louisiana Tech represented 50% of the conference membership at the time of the force down. ULL met the requirements to stay at D-1A and chose to stay at that level. The Cajuns were forced out of the conference because of conference rules. Another member, McNeese State, could have remained at D-1A having met the attendance requirements, but chose to move down with the conference. Louisiana Tech was very close to meeting the requirements, but had a bad season in 1979. Other programs were close, but no cigar also.

For the Southland, the reclassification was one of the causes of instability. Subsequent changes in membership weakened a pretty good basketball conference also. Arkansas State, Louisiana Tech, and Lamar left the conference in 1987 to join ULL, New Orleans, and UTPA (now UTRGV) to form the American South Conference. ULL, Louisiana Tech, and Lamar all had made Sweet 16 appearances in the men's tournament. Louisiana Tech was a basketball power in Women's basketball.

On the football side, Texas-Arlington dropped football after the 1985 season. Lamar dropped football in 1989 after four seasons as a D-IAA independent.

The interesting thing is that using today's rolling 15,000 average, that conference would have qualified. I haven't researched it, but I would venture a guess that would hold true for the other conferences forced down.

Of the ones sent down in '82, I believe only App State, Marshall, La Tech, North Texas, ULM (then Northeast Louisiana) and Arkansas State came back. All but App did it pretty quickly (within a decade or so) while it took App 22 years. Actually, App met the qualifications in '82 but chose to stay with the SoCon rather than follow their arch-rival ECU into the I-A independent wasteland.

Everyone else to move up to FBS since '82 either didn't have a team in '82 or were never I-A before '82.

I've heard the MAC was saved by the Big Ten because they wanted to count MAC wins towards bowl eligibility. The Southland, MVC, and SoCon had no such benefactor plus many if their schools were happy for the downgrade. Some standings still list Richmond and William & Mary as I-A independents in '83. I believe they were involved in a lawsuit of some sort before accepting their fate.

(09-02-2015 10:17 AM)NittanyLion Wrote:  

(09-02-2015 08:41 AM)orangefan Wrote:  I haven't counted, but I don't believe that "most" have made it back to FBS.

FWIW, the count on the 37 schools in that link that were listed as being reclassified to D-1AA:

Ivy League (8) - Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Harvard, Penn, Princeton, Yale

MAC schools "who wound up not really being reclassified" (6) - Ball State, BGSU, Eastern Michigan, Kent State, Northern Illinois, Ohio University

Reclassified than back to D-1A/FBS (6) - Appalachian State, Arkansas State, Louisiana Tech, Marshall, North Texas, Louisiana-Monroe

Reclassified and still D-1AA/FCS (15) - The Citadel, Colgate, Drake, ETSU, Furman, Holy Cross, Illinois State, Indiana State, Lamar, Richmond, Southern Illinois, Chattanooga, VMI, Western Carolina, William & Mary

Reclassified and currently no football team (1) - Texas-Arlington

Reclassified and currently D2 (1) - West Texas State

Several of those on the "Reclassified and still D-1AA/FCS" list dropped the program and subsequently restarted. ETSU 2003-2014, Lamar 1989-2009. There may be others, but those two are examples.

Looking at how close the mvc and southland were un meeting the 50% rule it leads me to believe the rules were written intentionally to disqualify. Long term The Big 10 was very smart in saving the MAC. I guess at the time with loose regulations about playing 1aa schools other power conference at the time didnt see the need to have a little brother 1a conference like the big 10 did

(09-02-2015 10:23 AM)AppfanInCAAland Wrote:  Of the ones sent down in '82, I believe only App State, Marshall, La Tech, North Texas, ULM (then Northeast Louisiana) and Arkansas State came back. All but App did it pretty quickly (within a decade or so) while it took App 22 years. Actually, App met the qualifications in '82 but chose to stay with the SoCon rather than follow their arch-rival ECU into the I-A independent wasteland.

Everyone else to move up to FBS since '82 either didn't have a team in '82 or were never I-A before '82.

I've heard the MAC was saved by the Big Ten because they wanted to count MAC wins towards bowl eligibility. The Southland, MVC, and SoCon had no such benefactor plus many if their schools were happy for the downgrade. Some standings still list Richmond and William & Mary as I-A independents in '83. I believe they were involved in a lawsuit of some sort before accepting their fate.

For the Southland, I wouldn't say many were happy with the downgrade. I think some just accepted it. Four of the six members at the time of the reclassification left the conference from 1982 to 1987.

(09-02-2015 10:21 AM)LUSportsFan Wrote:  Interesting topic and one that brings back bad memories.

For the Southland, ULL, Arkansas State, and Louisiana Tech represented 50% of the conference membership at the time of the force down. ULL met the requirements to stay at D-1A and chose to stay at that level. The Cajuns were forced out of the conference because of conference rules. Another member, McNeese State, could have remained at D-1A having met the attendance requirements, but chose to move down with the conference. Louisiana Tech was very close to meeting the requirements, but had a bad season in 1979. Other programs were close, but no cigar also.

For the Southland, the reclassification was one of the causes of instability. Subsequent changes in membership weakened a pretty good basketball conference also. Arkansas State, Louisiana Tech, and Lamar left the conference in 1987 to join ULL, New Orleans, and UTPA (now UTRGV) to form the American South Conference. ULL, Louisiana Tech, and Lamar all had made Sweet 16 appearances in the men's tournament. Louisiana Tech was a basketball power in Women's basketball.

On the football side, Texas-Arlington dropped football after the 1985 season. Lamar dropped football in 1989 after four seasons as a D-IAA independent.

The interesting thing is that using today's rolling 15,000 average, that conference would have qualified. I haven't researched it, but I would venture a guess that would hold true for the other conferences forced down.

Out of curiosity, what conference rules did ULL violate that "forced them out"? I know ULL's basketball program got the death penalty once, but that was several years before 1982.

It's an interesting "what if" question in the realignment game --- what if Louisiana Tech made the requirements, and the Southland Conference then hits the 50% mark? Then the conference could stay at the D-1 level, and it essentially would have been a version of the "Sun Belt" before the Sun Belt actually DID begin sponsoring football nearly two decades later. Would Tulsa, Wichita State and New Mexico State, members of a conference that didn't hit the 50% mark, have migrated over to the Southland themselves?

(09-02-2015 10:41 AM)NittanyLion Wrote:  

(09-02-2015 10:21 AM)LUSportsFan Wrote:  Interesting topic and one that brings back bad memories.

For the Southland, ULL, Arkansas State, and Louisiana Tech represented 50% of the conference membership at the time of the force down. ULL met the requirements to stay at D-1A and chose to stay at that level. The Cajuns were forced out of the conference because of conference rules. Another member, McNeese State, could have remained at D-1A having met the attendance requirements, but chose to move down with the conference. Louisiana Tech was very close to meeting the requirements, but had a bad season in 1979. Other programs were close, but no cigar also.

For the Southland, the reclassification was one of the causes of instability. Subsequent changes in membership weakened a pretty good basketball conference also. Arkansas State, Louisiana Tech, and Lamar left the conference in 1987 to join ULL, New Orleans, and UTPA (now UTRGV) to form the American South Conference. ULL, Louisiana Tech, and Lamar all had made Sweet 16 appearances in the men's tournament. Louisiana Tech was a basketball power in Women's basketball.

On the football side, Texas-Arlington dropped football after the 1985 season. Lamar dropped football in 1989 after four seasons as a D-IAA independent.

The interesting thing is that using today's rolling 15,000 average, that conference would have qualified. I haven't researched it, but I would venture a guess that would hold true for the other conferences forced down.

Out of curiosity, what conference rules did ULL violate that "forced them out"? I know ULL's basketball program got the death penalty once, but that was several years before 1982.

It's an interesting "what if" question in the realignment game --- what if Louisiana Tech made the requirements, and the Southland Conference then hits the 50% mark? Then the conference could stay at the D-1 level, and it essentially would have been a version of the "Sun Belt" before the Sun Belt actually DID begin sponsoring football nearly two decades later. Would Tulsa, Wichita State and New Mexico State, members of a conference that didn't hit the 50% mark, have migrated over to the Southland themselves?

You would think tulsa and nmsu would have considering everything they went through to stay 1a in the first place. Makes you wonder why they didn't so that in the first place or if the ncaa would have allowed that. Adding nmsu and tulsa would have allowed the southland to meet the 50% rule

(09-01-2015 11:37 PM)solohawks Wrote:  http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/NCAANewsArchive/...820215.pdf

Check out this link about the 1982 forced reclassification that nabbed the Ivy League, the Socon, the Soutland, and the MVC

It very clearly lays out the 4 requirements to be 1-A, and you must meet one of the following

1. Have 17K average home attendance every year for the past 4 years

2. Have 17K average home attendance in 1 of the past 4 years AND play in a 30K stadium

3. Have 20K average home AND away attendance for the past 4 years if your stadium is less than 30K OR 1 in the past 4 years if your stadium is 30K or greater

4. Play in a minimum of a 6 team conference where at least half the members meet 1-a classification guidelines

The Big West stayed alive due to rule #4 and that explains how they ended up being a mismash in the late 80's and early 90's of wayward football programs.

The MAC did to as they did not take no for an answer and schools like NIU and Bowling Green fought the decision until the MAC met rule 4
http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1982/...division-i

Its funny though looking at the schools that were reclassified, most of them have made their way back to 1A FBS level. Ashame that end result of all this was getting rid of the IVY's at the 1A level. They could have really provided a boost in the Northeast during the BCS and now the Playoff era.

Of the 4 in question per the article, I believe Southwest Louisiana and Western Michigan made it, but Miami and Cincinnati didn't. Meanwhile, McNeese made it in the Southland, but moved down and never moved back up. Arkansas St., La Tech, NW St. (now ULM) and North didn't make it but later moved back up.

(09-02-2015 10:41 AM)NittanyLion Wrote:  Out of curiosity, what conference rules did ULL violate that "forced them out"? I know ULL's basketball program got the death penalty once, but that was several years before 1982.

It's an interesting "what if" question in the realignment game --- what if Louisiana Tech made the requirements, and the Southland Conference then hits the 50% mark? Then the conference could stay at the D-1 level, and it essentially would have been a version of the "Sun Belt" before the Sun Belt actually DID begin sponsoring football nearly two decades later. Would Tulsa, Wichita State and New Mexico State, members of a conference that didn't hit the 50% mark, have migrated over to the Southland themselves?

The rule was and still is that if the conference sponsors a sport that a member plays, it must be played in the conference. The Ragin' Cajuns wanted to stay D-IA. With the rest of the conference reclassifying to D-IAA, that put them in violation. A similar thing occurred with UTSA and Texas State recently. I personally think the rule is harmful and has ended up harming the conference in the past. If I recall correctly, the rule was probably one of the reasons leading to the formation of the American South Conference. Arkansas State and Louisiana Tech wanted to move to D-IAA. The American South didn't sponsor football, so that was a good fit for both of them as well as ULL who went the independent route. They could pursue D-IA, but have a home for their Olympic sports.

Each probably would have ultimately moved on to find a home for all their sports, but the rule forced the programs to do that.

On the reclassification "what if", the conference was the founding home conference for the the Independence Bowl. Of course, that changed in 1982 with the reclassification.