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Active shooter, reports of multiple victims in San Bernardino, Calif.
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Redwingtom Offline
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Post: #441
RE: Active shooter, reports of multiple victims in San Bernardino, Calif.
(12-09-2015 03:20 PM)Pyrizzo Wrote:  
(12-09-2015 01:25 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(12-09-2015 01:14 PM)Pyrizzo Wrote:  
(12-09-2015 11:52 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(12-09-2015 11:09 AM)usmbacker Wrote:  It has been disclosed that the two shooters were radicalized long before they met and that they had plans to carry out attacks at schools. Ash Carter just declared before Congress that IsIs is not contained. Obama just refuses to admit to the problem of radicalized ISLAM because it doesn't fit his political narrative. I hope you libs that declared the San Bernadino incident as workplace violence aren't as stupid now as you were then, but I imagine you are.


What should he do different, OTHER than calling them radicals?

Lol. You yourself can't even say "Islamic" radicals.

So what? Why is it always the first reaction of many around here to not debate the issues but instead focus on the minutia of my personal views or comments on something?

Why don't you first fix the minutia so we can then debate the issues.

Well, I asked several questions. You made no attempt to answer them. Instead you choose to divert and follow the tangent of me leaving out one word in one of the questions.

Now, what is it that I need to fix?

If it makes you feel better, I'll go add the word back into my original post with the questions and then you can answer them and we can debate. How's that?
12-09-2015 04:14 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #442
RE: Active shooter, reports of multiple victims in San Bernardino, Calif.
(12-09-2015 04:14 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(12-09-2015 03:20 PM)Pyrizzo Wrote:  
(12-09-2015 01:25 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(12-09-2015 01:14 PM)Pyrizzo Wrote:  
(12-09-2015 11:52 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  What should he do different, OTHER than calling them radicals?

Lol. You yourself can't even say "Islamic" radicals.

So what? Why is it always the first reaction of many around here to not debate the issues but instead focus on the minutia of my personal views or comments on something?

Why don't you first fix the minutia so we can then debate the issues.

Well, I asked several questions. You made no attempt to answer them. Instead you choose to divert and follow the tangent of me leaving out one word in one of the questions.

Now, what is it that I need to fix?

If it makes you feel better, I'll go add the word back into my original post with the questions and then you can answer them and we can debate. How's that?

This would be a fair argument except that you've ignored the people who DID directly respond to your questions.

That is certainly your right to do, but it seems a bit hypocritical that you've now spent half a dozen posts arguing in the minutia about people arguing about the minutiae, while insisting that they debate the 'bulk', while you've ignored someone who has addressed the bulk.

I think you've very clearly demonstrated why they argue the minutiae... because that is obviously what YOU want to argue as well.
12-09-2015 05:27 PM
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Redwingtom Offline
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Post: #443
RE: Active shooter, reports of multiple victims in San Bernardino, Calif.
(12-09-2015 05:27 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(12-09-2015 04:14 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(12-09-2015 03:20 PM)Pyrizzo Wrote:  
(12-09-2015 01:25 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(12-09-2015 01:14 PM)Pyrizzo Wrote:  Lol. You yourself can't even say "Islamic" radicals.

So what? Why is it always the first reaction of many around here to not debate the issues but instead focus on the minutia of my personal views or comments on something?

Why don't you first fix the minutia so we can then debate the issues.

Well, I asked several questions. You made no attempt to answer them. Instead you choose to divert and follow the tangent of me leaving out one word in one of the questions.

Now, what is it that I need to fix?

If it makes you feel better, I'll go add the word back into my original post with the questions and then you can answer them and we can debate. How's that?

This would be a fair argument except that you've ignored the people who DID directly respond to your questions.

That is certainly your right to do, but it seems a bit hypocritical that you've now spent half a dozen posts arguing in the minutia about people arguing about the minutiae, while insisting that they debate the 'bulk', while you've ignored someone who has addressed the bulk.

I think you've very clearly demonstrated why they argue the minutiae... because that is obviously what YOU want to argue as well.

Sorry, but that's just flat out not true.

My questions:
Redwingtom Wrote:What should he do different, OTHER than calling them Islamic radicals?
Do you want him to send in ground troops to defeat ISIS?
If so, how should we pay for it?
And most importantly, what would the clear definition of the mission be?

After that, what liberals here declared this workplace violence?

Now, point to one post where any were answered? [Other than you addressing the workplace violence question (which wasn't really the thrust of my questions anyway!)]

Bottom line, they don't want to answer the questions, because they'd rather argue with me on why I originally left our the word Islamic from question 1.
(This post was last modified: 12-09-2015 05:39 PM by Redwingtom.)
12-09-2015 05:34 PM
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WoodlandsOwl Offline
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Post: #444
RE: Active shooter, reports of multiple victims in San Bernardino, Calif.
Looks like Marquez was involved in planning for an earlier assault. This might make him eligible for Federal Death Penalty.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/senator-san-ber...d=35679709
12-09-2015 06:12 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #445
RE: Active shooter, reports of multiple victims in San Bernardino, Calif.
(12-09-2015 05:34 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Sorry, but that's just flat out not true.

My questions:
Redwingtom Wrote:What should he do different, OTHER than calling them Islamic radicals?
Do you want him to send in ground troops to defeat ISIS?
If so, how should we pay for it?
And most importantly, what would the clear definition of the mission be?

After that, what liberals here declared this workplace violence?

Now, point to one post where any were answered? [Other than you addressing the workplace violence question (which wasn't really the thrust of my questions anyway!)]

Bottom line, they don't want to answer the questions, because they'd rather argue with me on why I originally left our the word Islamic from question 1.

So stop talking to them rather than following them down the minutia trail while getting mad at them for doing the same.

My response directly answered the workplace violence comment, but it also addressed the others... It just didn't do so using the framework you insisted upon because I don't think that framework is 'the only option'.

What Obama should do is just as I suggested. End his own deflections and discourage others from doing so. I agree that it isn't Islam that we should be worried about, so stop telling us to learn more about/be tolerant of Islam. Stop comparing Radical Islam in 2015 to the Crusades. Call it RADICAL Islam... Call it people hiding inside peaceful Islam... but by all means, don't tell us that we need to learn to distinguish between one group of people who celebrate Allah and another, any more than a Muslim can tell the difference between most Christian subsets.

I hope you see that by doing this, you're not merely using a different word, but you're actually pointing out the differences, rather than the similarities between the two, and you aren't putting Americans on the defensive in order to do it.

As for specifics of how many ground troops it will take or whatever, that is the same minutia in my mind that you don't want to talk about. Frankly, while I am concerned about ISIS and ISIL, if they aren't coming across my borders, they aren't really my primary problem. Support those peaceful Muslims fighting the terrorists... Of course the story in Afghanistan is that ISIL and the Taliban are equally bad to the people there... so pick the poison that doesn't hate US.

I think we should strengthen our security checks... I think we should keep a closer eye on those we DO admit for a while... They aren't citizens, they don't have the same rights from day one. Sorry. If you don't like it, there are other countries to go to. No, it's not a magic bullet, but it's not unreasonable either. Being watched more carefully for a while is STILL far more 'free' than what they are escaping.

But the MAIN thing I want Obama to do is stop blaming Americans for perfectly natural human reactions. You don't stop people from feeling like it is 'us vs them' by not 'feeling their pain' as Clinton so famously did.

Trump may be exploiting it (their pain) but it's because Obama is telling them to be ashamed of it.
12-09-2015 08:55 PM
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WoodlandsOwl Offline
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Post: #446
RE: Active shooter, reports of multiple victims in San Bernardino, Calif.
This is Fort Hood Part II.

Administration didn't want to call it Terrorism even after the links between Hassan and Al-Akaki were established. And then Al-Alaki received the Hellfire up the wazoo. It takes a bunch of documentation and evidence from CIA, NSA, DoD, State, DoJ for the President to sign the Order authorizing the strike.

In this instance we have 2 Terrorists and a non-participating accessory who have been planning an Operation for a couple of years. A Terrorist imports an accomplice to finalize the Operation.

Workplace violence my ass. Mixed motives my ass. You had a Terrorist Attack on US Soil. Time to investigate all suspects and persons of interest.

I hope they roll up this Cell with Mom, Marquez, the midnight visitors etc. sitting on Death Row in Indiana.
12-09-2015 09:39 PM
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200yrs2late Offline
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Post: #447
RE: Active shooter, reports of multiple victims in San Bernardino, Calif.
(12-09-2015 11:52 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(12-09-2015 11:09 AM)usmbacker Wrote:  It has been disclosed that the two shooters were radicalized long before they met and that they had plans to carry out attacks at schools. Ash Carter just declared before Congress that IsIs is not contained. Obama just refuses to admit to the problem of radicalized ISLAM because it doesn't fit his political narrative. I hope you libs that declared the San Bernadino incident as workplace violence aren't as stupid now as you were then, but I imagine you are.

Why are we so hung up on what Obama says in public about levels of radicalization or placing blame on a religion or semantics on containment?

Obama asked for Congressional authorization to deal with Syria months ago and they ignored it.
We've been bombing them for a year. Thousands of runs and hundreds of bombings.
We've killed scores of ISIS leaders.
We're sending in special forces to train and assist...and sometimes even fight
Obama has still been asking for Congress for an authorization to deal with ISIS, and they still ignore it.

Please answer some questions:

What should he do different, OTHER than calling them Islamic radicals?
Do you want him to send in ground troops to defeat ISIS?
If so, how should we pay for it?
And most importantly, what would the clear definition of the mission be?

After that, what liberals here declared this workplace violence? I haven't read the whole thread.

1. Acknowledge they are in fact Islamic and appeal to the 'peaceful' Muslims to take up arms and fight against Islamic terrorist groups to take their religion back.
2. Yes, and send tens of thousands after bombing the **** out of ISIS territory for weeks.
3. With their oil if necessary.
4. Wipe them out. All of them.

5. Don't know if it was this thread or another, but you certainly raised the question of this being at least partly workplace violence.
12-09-2015 11:50 PM
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CardFan1 Offline
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Post: #448
RE: Active shooter, reports of multiple victims in San Bernardino, Calif.
(12-09-2015 06:12 PM)WMD Owl Wrote:  Looks like Marquez was involved in planning for an earlier assault. This might make him eligible for Federal Death Penalty.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/senator-san-ber...d=35679709

Now more likely He could have been that Third shooter that others inside the building witnessed but vanished . Real P.O.S., Make an example of Him Quickly if found to be. 05-mafia
12-10-2015 07:34 AM
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Redwingtom Offline
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Post: #449
RE: Active shooter, reports of multiple victims in San Bernardino, Calif.
(12-09-2015 11:50 PM)200yrs2late Wrote:  
(12-09-2015 11:52 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(12-09-2015 11:09 AM)usmbacker Wrote:  It has been disclosed that the two shooters were radicalized long before they met and that they had plans to carry out attacks at schools. Ash Carter just declared before Congress that IsIs is not contained. Obama just refuses to admit to the problem of radicalized ISLAM because it doesn't fit his political narrative. I hope you libs that declared the San Bernadino incident as workplace violence aren't as stupid now as you were then, but I imagine you are.

Why are we so hung up on what Obama says in public about levels of radicalization or placing blame on a religion or semantics on containment?

Obama asked for Congressional authorization to deal with Syria months ago and they ignored it.
We've been bombing them for a year. Thousands of runs and hundreds of bombings.
We've killed scores of ISIS leaders.
We're sending in special forces to train and assist...and sometimes even fight
Obama has still been asking for Congress for an authorization to deal with ISIS, and they still ignore it.

Please answer some questions:

What should he do different, OTHER than calling them Islamic radicals?
Do you want him to send in ground troops to defeat ISIS?
If so, how should we pay for it?
And most importantly, what would the clear definition of the mission be?

After that, what liberals here declared this workplace violence? I haven't read the whole thread.

1. Acknowledge they are in fact Islamic and appeal to the 'peaceful' Muslims to take up arms and fight against Islamic terrorist groups to take their religion back.
2. Yes, and send tens of thousands after bombing the **** out of ISIS territory for weeks.
3. With their oil if necessary.
4. Wipe them out. All of them.

5. Don't know if it was this thread or another, but you certainly raised the question of this being at least partly workplace violence.

I think that was just in my response to Owl numbers where I thought he had at least partly concluded that it was...but I was wrong as he clarified what he meant.

About the only time I considered that it might be was before the final evidence was brought forth to pretty much close that door. That being said, I also felt equal consideration that it was just flat out terrorism. As I said, I try to wait until the evidence rolls in before reaching conclusions. Sometimes, I fail.

And for Hambone regarding the minutia. I was only referring to the griping over me leaving one word out of my question...I certainly don't look at the number of ground troops necessary as minutia. And I also wasn't looking for my questions to be answered yes or no and in the format I laid out. I was merely just trying to get this back to an actual discussion of what we should be doing differently than we are.

Excuse me for trying.
(This post was last modified: 12-10-2015 10:11 AM by Redwingtom.)
12-10-2015 10:10 AM
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NIU007 Offline
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Post: #450
RE: Active shooter, reports of multiple victims in San Bernardino, Calif.
Religions don't kill, people do.
12-10-2015 10:27 AM
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HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Offline
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Post: #451
RE: Active shooter, reports of multiple victims in San Bernardino, Calif.
(12-10-2015 10:27 AM)NIU007 Wrote:  Religions don't kill, people do.

Pretty true. You can remove religion entirely or have everyone be religious and there were still be killings.
12-10-2015 11:07 AM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #452
RE: Active shooter, reports of multiple victims in San Bernardino, Calif.
(12-10-2015 10:10 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  And for Hambone regarding the minutia. I was only referring to the griping over me leaving one word out of my question...I certainly don't look at the number of ground troops necessary as minutia. And I also wasn't looking for my questions to be answered yes or no and in the format I laid out. I was merely just trying to get this back to an actual discussion of what we should be doing differently than we are.

Excuse me for trying.

No problem at all... no problem with trying... that is exactly what I was doing as well... trying. I TRIED to answer you, I TRIED to help you avoid getting dragged down into arguments over the minutia.

Sometimes we all just miss. No harm in that

(12-10-2015 11:07 AM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  
(12-10-2015 10:27 AM)NIU007 Wrote:  Religions don't kill, people do.

Pretty true. You can remove religion entirely or have everyone be religious and there were still be killings.

True, because even in religion, it's not generally a fight over ideology in the hereafter, but over power here and now. Yes, there can be overlap and often is, as many claim that the fight in the here and now is 'about' the hereafter... but regardless of what any religion calls you to do, I don't think ANY omnipotent being NEEDS us to succeed to accomplish His goals. WE are the ones who need it. Lots of them are merely fights over power under the guise of doing his will.... been that way for centuries.... though MOST western religions have moved away from the idea of NEEDING to convert others.. WANTING AND OFFERING yes, but not requiring.
(This post was last modified: 12-10-2015 11:57 AM by Hambone10.)
12-10-2015 11:56 AM
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NIU007 Offline
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Post: #453
RE: Active shooter, reports of multiple victims in San Bernardino, Calif.
(12-10-2015 11:56 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(12-10-2015 10:10 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  And for Hambone regarding the minutia. I was only referring to the griping over me leaving one word out of my question...I certainly don't look at the number of ground troops necessary as minutia. And I also wasn't looking for my questions to be answered yes or no and in the format I laid out. I was merely just trying to get this back to an actual discussion of what we should be doing differently than we are.

Excuse me for trying.

No problem at all... no problem with trying... that is exactly what I was doing as well... trying. I TRIED to answer you, I TRIED to help you avoid getting dragged down into arguments over the minutia.

Sometimes we all just miss. No harm in that

(12-10-2015 11:07 AM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  
(12-10-2015 10:27 AM)NIU007 Wrote:  Religions don't kill, people do.

Pretty true. You can remove religion entirely or have everyone be religious and there were still be killings.

True, because even in religion, it's not generally a fight over ideology in the hereafter, but over power here and now. Yes, there can be overlap and often is, as many claim that the fight in the here and now is 'about' the hereafter... but regardless of what any religion calls you to do, I don't think ANY omnipotent being NEEDS us to succeed to accomplish His goals. WE are the ones who need it. Lots of them are merely fights over power under the guise of doing his will.... been that way for centuries.... though MOST western religions have moved away from the idea of NEEDING to convert others.. WANTING AND OFFERING yes, but not requiring.

I wonder. Some people are concerned about power, and they do use religion to get other people to do things to help them attain it and maintain it. They can use their theories about the afterlife for this, and it's a powerful tool.
12-10-2015 11:59 AM
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