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OT: Dead Lives Matter
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Earl in Midlothian Offline
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Post: #41
RE: OT: Dead Lives Matter
This business of note ID being discriminatory is pure bull!!! You can't even enter a public school in Virginia during school hours without a photo ID. I know this to be a fact. We need to stop with the victim stuff.
09-30-2016 02:07 PM
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JMUPurple Offline
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Post: #42
RE: OT: Dead Lives Matter
(09-30-2016 01:25 PM)Potomac Wrote:  
(09-30-2016 01:14 PM)JMUPurple Wrote:  You can't function in society without and ID. Everyone has them or at the very least can obtain one.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/...story.html

"Across the country, about 11 percent of Americans do not have government-issued photo identification cards, such as a driver’s license or a passport, according to Wendy Weiser of the Democracy Program at the Brennan Center for Justice at New York University School of Law."

Virginia is one of those states requiring photo ID. Most of the states that have the legislation passed are deep southern states.

As a retired law enforcement officer who for 29 years regularly came in contact with persons from all walks of life including those you say would be adversely impacted by voter ID laws, there is NO WAY that I believe 11 percent of the population does not have identification!

This article explains how the left inflates that number:

http://dailysignal.com/2016/01/13/how-th...thout-ids/
09-30-2016 02:08 PM
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jmu14 Offline
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Post: #43
RE: OT: Dead Lives Matter
(09-30-2016 02:03 PM)BleedingPurple Wrote:  
(09-30-2016 01:03 PM)ShadyP Wrote:  
(09-30-2016 12:55 PM)Potomac Wrote:  So since someone can't buy beer or drive, they can't vote? That's an asinine argument but a typical one attempting to down play the situation.

Requiring voters to obtain an ID in order to vote is tantamount to a poll tax. Although some states issue IDs for free, the birth certificates, passports, or other documents required to obtain a government-issued ID cost money, and many Americans simply cannot afford to pay for them.

It's a constitutional right. Drinking alcohol and driving a motor vehicle are not. The number of cases of in-person voter fraud are so insignificant they couldn't possibly have any effect on an election.

Seriously --- The line of thinking screams ---- I am a victim and willing to take ZERO responsibility for myself.

Just checked the DMV site. Getting an ID costs $10. I repeat $10. Forget about voting everyone should have some form of picture ID anyway. Seems like to me it would be pretty dang hard to function in our society without a picture ID.

You know what else is a constitutional right. The right to bear arms....but that does not mean you get one for free somewhere. You have the right the bear arms/own a gun but if you want one you will need to buy it. Which will cost far more than $10 for a picture ID.

In addition, this is not an ID that has to be purchased annually, depending on the state, NC they are good for 8 years. You are paying somewhere between one or two bucks annually.

That's the idea, but questions have recently been raised about Wisconsin failing to provide the right documents for citizens to get a voter ID. And these systematic failures happened to primarily affect poor black voters. https://www.thenation.com/article/wiscon...-november/


What a coincidence. Except according to documents from Governor Scott Walker's office, it isn't a coincidence at all.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/17/us/som....html?_r=0
09-30-2016 02:09 PM
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DoubleDogDare Offline
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Post: #44
RE: OT: Dead Lives Matter
(09-30-2016 01:52 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  '71 now you've done it.. asking for logic to be considered. Really?

The issue was his question lacked logic or education. One of the two. Anyone thru 8th grade can answer that question (aka lacking education) but the answer doesn't fix the issue*** (aka lacking logic).


***Edit: Sorry I shouldn't have said "issue." Voter fraud isn't an issue evident by the facts presented in my earlier post.
(This post was last modified: 09-30-2016 02:14 PM by DoubleDogDare.)
09-30-2016 02:12 PM
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bjk3047 Offline
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Post: #45
RE: OT: Dead Lives Matter
(09-30-2016 02:07 PM)Earl in Midlothian Wrote:  This business of note ID being discriminatory is pure bull!!! You can't even enter a public school in Virginia during school hours without a photo ID. I know this to be a fact. We need to stop with the victim stuff.

You can't even attend a public school in Virginia during school hours unless you're a student. I know this to be a fact.

If you're not a Virginia school student, YOU SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO VOTE.

Talk about false equivalency. Geez.
09-30-2016 02:12 PM
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jmu14 Offline
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Post: #46
RE: OT: Dead Lives Matter
(09-30-2016 02:08 PM)JMUPurple Wrote:  
(09-30-2016 01:25 PM)Potomac Wrote:  
(09-30-2016 01:14 PM)JMUPurple Wrote:  You can't function in society without and ID. Everyone has them or at the very least can obtain one.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/...story.html

"Across the country, about 11 percent of Americans do not have government-issued photo identification cards, such as a driver’s license or a passport, according to Wendy Weiser of the Democracy Program at the Brennan Center for Justice at New York University School of Law."

Virginia is one of those states requiring photo ID. Most of the states that have the legislation passed are deep southern states.

As a retired law enforcement officer who for 29 years regularly came in contact with persons from all walks of life including those you say would be adversely impacted by voter ID laws, there is NO WAY that I believe 11 percent of the population does not have identification!

This article explains how the left inflates that number:

http://dailysignal.com/2016/01/13/how-th...thout-ids/

"Policymakers and the public deserve to hear the truth about the relatively small universe of affected voters, not inflammatory and inaccurate assertions that hundreds of thousands or millions of voters are going to be negatively affected by such laws."

This guy just made my argument for me. There is an infinitesimally small number of people affected by actual voter fraud each year. It's statistically insignificant. Why pass sweeping legislation that has the potential to effect several orders of magnitude more people than would ever be affected by "voter fraud" in the first place. Even if that 11% was actually 4% or 5%, wouldn't that be too many people to disenfranchise over a total non-issue?

Why run the risk of disenfranchising people over something that isn't a problem?
09-30-2016 02:14 PM
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Potomac Offline
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Post: #47
RE: OT: Dead Lives Matter
There's a central argument that the naysayers are failing to acknowledge, the population of persons negatively affected by such ID legislation is greater than the number of voter fraud cases every election cycle. It's a non-issue from a mathematical standpoint and there's a reason why only republican legislators are pushing for it.
09-30-2016 02:15 PM
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bjk3047 Offline
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Post: #48
RE: OT: Dead Lives Matter
(09-30-2016 02:08 PM)JMUPurple Wrote:  This article explains how the left inflates that number:

http://dailysignal.com/2016/01/13/how-th...thout-ids/

I love that the site that you cite has the following banner:

[Image: banner.png]

Surely you're not crying bias making use of a biased website as proof. Surely.
09-30-2016 02:16 PM
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South Carolina Duke Offline
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Post: #49
RE: OT: Dead Lives Matter
Potomac, these same individuals cash govt checks, obtain medical assistance do they not? You need ID to purchase certain OTC drugs. Get real!!
09-30-2016 02:18 PM
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jmu14 Offline
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Post: #50
RE: OT: Dead Lives Matter
(09-30-2016 02:15 PM)Potomac Wrote:  There's a central argument that the naysayers are failing to acknowledge, the population of persons negatively affected by such ID legislation is greater than the number of voter fraud cases every election cycle. It's a non-issue from a mathematical standpoint and there's a reason why only republican legislators are pushing for it.

THANK YOU. I just finished posting my post above yours and saw this.

Ask yourselves why you're so riled up about potential voter fraud when you haven't been affected, no one you know has been affected, and you've only heard of random cases on the news that aren't actual in-person voter fraud.

What's always amazed me about the people who support restrictive voting laws is that for a group of people who hate regulation, big government, and government overreach, they sure are super pumped about the government placing extra (unconstitutional) obstacles in the way of fulfilling a Constitutional right. They hate any legislation in their path of purchasing a gun, but undue restrictions on voting are A-okay.
09-30-2016 02:20 PM
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South Carolina Duke Offline
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Post: #51
RE: OT: Dead Lives Matter
Personally I believe this is a Strawman argument. These same individuals have cell phones I feel certain. Then they have an ID.

I think one must be a land owner and not in govt assistance in order to be able to vote.
09-30-2016 02:24 PM
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JMUPurple Offline
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Post: #52
RE: OT: Dead Lives Matter
(09-30-2016 02:14 PM)jmu14 Wrote:  
(09-30-2016 02:08 PM)JMUPurple Wrote:  
(09-30-2016 01:25 PM)Potomac Wrote:  
(09-30-2016 01:14 PM)JMUPurple Wrote:  You can't function in society without and ID. Everyone has them or at the very least can obtain one.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/...story.html

"Across the country, about 11 percent of Americans do not have government-issued photo identification cards, such as a driver’s license or a passport, according to Wendy Weiser of the Democracy Program at the Brennan Center for Justice at New York University School of Law."

Virginia is one of those states requiring photo ID. Most of the states that have the legislation passed are deep southern states.

As a retired law enforcement officer who for 29 years regularly came in contact with persons from all walks of life including those you say would be adversely impacted by voter ID laws, there is NO WAY that I believe 11 percent of the population does not have identification!

This article explains how the left inflates that number:

http://dailysignal.com/2016/01/13/how-th...thout-ids/

"Policymakers and the public deserve to hear the truth about the relatively small universe of affected voters, not inflammatory and inaccurate assertions that hundreds of thousands or millions of voters are going to be negatively affected by such laws."

This guy just made my argument for me. There is an infinitesimally small number of people affected by actual voter fraud each year. It's statistically insignificant. Why pass sweeping legislation that has the potential to effect several orders of magnitude more people than would ever be affected by "voter fraud" in the first place. Even if that 11% was actually 4% or 5%, wouldn't that be too many people to disenfranchise over a total non-issue?

Why run the risk of disenfranchising people over something that isn't a problem?

Every time someone casts a fraudulent vote, a real voter is disenfranchised! So, yes it is a problem!
09-30-2016 02:26 PM
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Bill Offline
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Post: #53
RE: OT: Dead Lives Matter
(09-30-2016 01:16 PM)Potomac Wrote:  This line of thinking screams socioeconomic privilege. It's a whole lot more going on than just a $10 ID fee at the VA DMV. It disenfranchises the poor, young and elderly and there's ample proof of that.

Subjective reports by agenda driven entities are not ample proof. No one who shows up to vote without an ID is denied their right to vote. Democrats want you to believe you are thrown out of the place and denied your right to vote when nothing could be further from the truth. You file your ballot and have 30 days to prove to a judge you are who you are, no photo ID required.

If Mexico and India require photo ID, the USA has no excuse. 95% of India lives in poverty and 100% of them have a government issued photo ID.

I've asked everyone I know who is anti photo ID to present a voting age American who has no photo ID and you know how many they've produced? A big fat zero. And in your wildest dreams, you couldn't find a voting age human being who has no photo ID. These IDless people are mythical, like unicorns.
09-30-2016 02:27 PM
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jmu14 Offline
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Post: #54
RE: OT: Dead Lives Matter
(09-30-2016 02:26 PM)JMUPurple Wrote:  
(09-30-2016 02:14 PM)jmu14 Wrote:  
(09-30-2016 02:08 PM)JMUPurple Wrote:  
(09-30-2016 01:25 PM)Potomac Wrote:  
(09-30-2016 01:14 PM)JMUPurple Wrote:  You can't function in society without and ID. Everyone has them or at the very least can obtain one.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/...story.html

"Across the country, about 11 percent of Americans do not have government-issued photo identification cards, such as a driver’s license or a passport, according to Wendy Weiser of the Democracy Program at the Brennan Center for Justice at New York University School of Law."

Virginia is one of those states requiring photo ID. Most of the states that have the legislation passed are deep southern states.

As a retired law enforcement officer who for 29 years regularly came in contact with persons from all walks of life including those you say would be adversely impacted by voter ID laws, there is NO WAY that I believe 11 percent of the population does not have identification!

This article explains how the left inflates that number:

http://dailysignal.com/2016/01/13/how-th...thout-ids/

"Policymakers and the public deserve to hear the truth about the relatively small universe of affected voters, not inflammatory and inaccurate assertions that hundreds of thousands or millions of voters are going to be negatively affected by such laws."

This guy just made my argument for me. There is an infinitesimally small number of people affected by actual voter fraud each year. It's statistically insignificant. Why pass sweeping legislation that has the potential to effect several orders of magnitude more people than would ever be affected by "voter fraud" in the first place. Even if that 11% was actually 4% or 5%, wouldn't that be too many people to disenfranchise over a total non-issue?

Why run the risk of disenfranchising people over something that isn't a problem?

Every time someone casts a fraudulent vote, a real voter is disenfranchised! So, yes it is a problem!

Where is the evidence of these fraudulent votes? How often does this happen each election cycle? How many people are disenfranchised because someone else voted in their place?
09-30-2016 02:30 PM
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Potomac Offline
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Post: #55
RE: OT: Dead Lives Matter
(09-30-2016 02:24 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  Personally I believe this is a Strawman argument. These same individuals have cell phones I feel certain. Then they have an ID.

I think one must be a land owner and not in govt assistance in order to be able to vote.

Lets require a college education to be able to vote too. If that were the case, we might not have at least one of the candidates in front of us right now.

That won't be discriminatory.
09-30-2016 02:30 PM
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ShadyP Offline
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Post: #56
RE: OT: Dead Lives Matter
(09-30-2016 01:31 PM)bjk3047 Wrote:  
(09-30-2016 01:03 PM)ShadyP Wrote:  Seriously --- The line of thinking screams ---- I am a victim and willing to take ZERO responsibility for myself.

Just checked the DMV site. Getting an ID costs $10. I repeat $10. Forget about voting everyone should have some form of picture ID anyway. Seems like to me it would be pretty dang hard to function in our society without a picture ID.

You know what else is a constitutional right. The right to bear arms....but that does not mean you get one for free somewhere. You have the right the bear arms/own a gun but if you want one you will need to buy it. Which will cost far more than $10 for a picture ID.

This is pretty hilariously logically fallacious on basically all points.

"Seriously --- The line of thinking screams ---- I am a victim and willing to take ZERO responsibility for myself."
Your logical fallacy is ad hominem.

"Just checked the DMV site. Getting an ID costs $10. I repeat $10." You're ignoring Potomac's point that (often large) fees can be associated with the documents required to get an ID. Your logical fallacy is strawman.

"Forget about voting everyone should have some form of picture ID anyway."
Your logical fallacy is bandwagon.

"You know what else is a constitutional right. The right to bear arms....but that does not mean you get one for free somewhere."
What on Earth? Needless to say, your logical fallacy is false cause.

Impressive I see someone is making excellent use of their 'elitist' glossary and catch-phrase desk calendar today. 04-cheers

And these points may be correct if you were lecturing in front of a Philosophy or PolySci 101 course but not so much in 'real' life.

The first one - ad hominem - it was used exactly as intended as the previous poster took a similar stance with me, tit for tat.

The second one - strawman - nah, it would and is hard to function without an ID in modern society. Ditch your IDs and give it a try for a week or 2 and get back to me. Yes you do have so present something form of documentation to present proof of legal presence. So I am to assume you would also be against any form of Identification Check if you would not be in favor of ID check when choosing our leaders. Just a guess ---- I will let you tell me which fallacy this is -- probably a good homework exercise.

The 3rd on - bandwagon - not sure which 'bandwagon' I jumped on since I was the first to mention this, I think, in this thread but ok. Sorry if my opinion means bandwagon to you......but to flip that every counter you have made is, 'bandwagon' since I don't think any of them are your original thoughts. But good try.

The 4th one - False Cause (fancy way of saying 'Comparing Apples to Oranges') --- No not really, someone else brought up it is wrong to require an ID for voting which is a constitutional right which equates to a tax on a constitutional right. I merely pointed out that the right to bear arms/own a firearm is also constitutional right which is also NOT free.....it costs money to purchase firearms and no one argues that is a tax on a constitutional right. Just a counterpoint with regards to taxes on constitutional rights.
09-30-2016 02:32 PM
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bjk3047 Offline
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Post: #57
RE: OT: Dead Lives Matter
(09-30-2016 02:20 PM)jmu14 Wrote:  What's always amazed me about the people who support restrictive voting laws is that for a group of people who hate regulation, big government, and government overreach, they sure are super pumped about the government placing extra (unconstitutional) obstacles in the way of fulfilling a Constitutional right. They hate any legislation in their path of purchasing a gun, but undue restrictions on voting are A-okay.

That's it. Close down the thread. We're done here.
09-30-2016 02:32 PM
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jmu14 Offline
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Post: #58
RE: OT: Dead Lives Matter
(09-30-2016 02:27 PM)Bill Wrote:  
(09-30-2016 01:16 PM)Potomac Wrote:  This line of thinking screams socioeconomic privilege. It's a whole lot more going on than just a $10 ID fee at the VA DMV. It disenfranchises the poor, young and elderly and there's ample proof of that.

Subjective reports by agenda driven entities are not ample proof. No one who shows up to vote without an ID is denied their right to vote. Democrats want you to believe you are thrown out of the place and denied your right to vote when nothing could be further from the truth. You file your ballot and have 30 days to prove to a judge you are who you are, no photo ID required.

If Mexico and India require photo ID, the USA has no excuse. 95% of India lives in poverty and 100% of them have a government issued photo ID.

I've asked everyone I know who is anti photo ID to present a voting age American who has no photo ID and you know how many they've produced? A big fat zero. And in your wildest dreams, you couldn't find a voting age human being who has no photo ID. These IDless people are mythical, like unicorns.

Ahh yes. So someone who can't afford a birth certificate to get a voter ID is now going to take time off from work to go to court to try and prove that they are who they say they are. Not everyone is able to drop everything and go to court. We see that in East St. Louis all the time where people get arrested because they get a traffic ticket, can't pay it, get a court date, can't go to court, and now we're paying for them to sit in jail.

Someone said it earlier, but this is just such a privileged mindset. Just because YOU would be able to take the time and go to court doesn't mean someone else could. Just because YOU have never met anyone who doesn't have a proper ID doesn't mean others don't.

And if you think the IDless people are mythical, the people casting fraudulent votes are just as mythical. So why are we even having this discussion? Why even run the risk of disenfranchising people if actual voter fraud just doesn't happen? Why get ourselves into this political argument about this if the statistics show that this just isn't the problem it's made out to be?

Answer: it isn't about voter fraud.
09-30-2016 02:34 PM
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bjk3047 Offline
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Post: #59
RE: OT: Dead Lives Matter
(09-30-2016 02:32 PM)ShadyP Wrote:  Impressive I see someone is making excellent use of their 'elitist' glossary and catch-phrase desk calendar today. 04-cheers

Oh cool, I'm glad you hadn't exhausted your ad hominem quota for the day.
09-30-2016 02:34 PM
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ShadyP Offline
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Post: #60
RE: OT: Dead Lives Matter
(09-30-2016 02:07 PM)Earl in Midlothian Wrote:  This business of note ID being discriminatory is pure bull!!! You can't even enter a public school in Virginia during school hours without a photo ID. I know this to be a fact. We need to stop with the victim stuff.

Absolutely.....every time you enter the building you must show a picture ID.....and they really want a Driver's License so they can quickly scan against the child predator database and violent offender database using the barcode on the back to be specific.
09-30-2016 02:35 PM
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