RE: An end to the Electoral College protest non-sense
(11-30-2016 01:35 PM)john01992 Wrote:
(11-30-2016 12:17 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote: This election was the PRIME example of why the Electoral College is necessary and valid. It worked exactly as it was supposed to do.
you are right. the purpose of the EC is because they envisioned situations like the 2016 election.
the founding fathers thought the people couldn't be trusted to make the right choice and if they elected for someone seen as unfit for POTUS the electors could negate the people's choice.
the people arguing on behalf of the EC have virtually no idea about why the EC exists. It was created to prevent people like Trump from becoming president.
The electoral college exists to preserve state's rights and power. The US is not a democracy, it is a representative republic and as such the EC is absolutely necessary to ensure that every state has a say in the election. If it didn't exist, NY and CA would determine the election and none of the other 48 states would have a say.
RE: An end to the Electoral College protest non-sense
(11-30-2016 02:43 PM)john01992 Wrote: card: the only people who think the "number of counties won" argument is valid are dumb partisan hacks. the fact they chose that argument as their focus is quite telling.
usm: you talk about butchering of history while doing that yourself. the authors of that article have a combined ZERO degrees in any field of history. also they say "it was not about protecting slavery" but provide literally zero basis for that explanation. they just inject that as a factual statement despite no evidence supporting it then have the audacity to say the 3/5th compromise was not proslavery. oh and right after that they mention Lincoln won only 39% of the popular vote trying to imply he lost the popular vote but ignore the fact that 1860 had four major candidates and the next closest candidate had only 29% of the popular vote. that article is entirely grade A bull**** making historical connections that are completely laughable.
UTSA: it's only your flawed political ideology who believes Trump has less association with foreign individuals and more fit to run the country than HRC.
john: it's only your flawed political ideology who believes HRC has less association with foreign individuals and more fit to run the country than Trump.
RE: An end to the Electoral College protest non-sense
(11-30-2016 12:17 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote: This election was the PRIME example of why the Electoral College is necessary and valid. It worked exactly as it was supposed to do.
And further, it speaks to the genius and foresight of our brilliant Founders to see something like this then, and even moreso now. You "win" the election by carrying 57 Counties countrywide and you're looking at another potential revolution.
RE: An end to the Electoral College protest non-sense
(11-30-2016 03:07 PM)200yrs2late Wrote:
(11-30-2016 01:35 PM)john01992 Wrote:
(11-30-2016 12:17 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote: This election was the PRIME example of why the Electoral College is necessary and valid. It worked exactly as it was supposed to do.
you are right. the purpose of the EC is because they envisioned situations like the 2016 election.
the founding fathers thought the people couldn't be trusted to make the right choice and if they elected for someone seen as unfit for POTUS the electors could negate the people's choice.
the people arguing on behalf of the EC have virtually no idea about why the EC exists. It was created to prevent people like Trump from becoming president.
The electoral college exists to preserve state's rights and power. The US is not a democracy, it is a representative republic and as such the EC is absolutely necessary to ensure that every state has a say in the election. If it didn't exist, NY and CA would determine the election and none of the other 48 states would have a say.
the fact you have to use exaggerations to build your case proves you have little to work with.
also for what is the 10,000th time: The US is a democracy. The term "republic" has absolutely no bearing on whether a nation is a democracy or not.
Germany is a republic, denmark is not. Ireland is a republic, The UK is not. South Korea is a republic, Japan is not. France is a republic, Spain is not. The US is a republic, Canada is not.
Oh and then there is China, Iran, Cuba, Syria, Turkey, Russia, and South Africa who are all Republics.
RE: An end to the Electoral College protest non-sense
(11-30-2016 02:49 PM)usmbacker Wrote:
(11-30-2016 02:43 PM)john01992 Wrote: card: the only people who think the "number of counties won" argument is valid are dumb partisan hacks. the fact they chose that argument as their focus is quite telling.
usm: you talk about butchering of history while doing that yourself. the authors of that article have a combined ZERO degrees in any field of history. also they say "it was not about protecting slavery" but provide literally zero basis for that explanation. they just inject that as a factual statement despite no evidence supporting it then have the audacity to say the 3/5th compromise was not proslavery. oh and right after that they mention Lincoln won only 39% of the popular vote trying to imply he lost the popular vote but ignore the fact that 1860 had four major candidates and the next closest candidate had only 29% of the popular vote. that article is entirely grade A bull**** making historical connections that are completely laughable.
UTSA: it's only your flawed political ideology who believes Trump has less association with foreign individuals and more fit to run the country than HRC.
so facts are inconvenient for you? I love how you don't even try to address any of the obvious flaws with that article and they are quite obvious.
RE: An end to the Electoral College protest non-sense
If the electoral college didn't exist, Trump could have spent all his time in California and New York and won even easier and even more big league. I don't get the fuss.
The electoral college is only "undemocratic" if the entire legislative process is, given that they carbon copies of one another. I'd bet you regressives/idiot millennials thought that the electoral college totaling 538 was just a coincidence.
That's the problem with idiot millennials. They think they are the first ones to ever think of this sh*t, and with safe space culture, no one ever tells them that they are jackasses with no original thoughts.
Educate yourselves.
(This post was last modified: 11-30-2016 04:03 PM by Kronke.)
RE: An end to the Electoral College protest non-sense
(11-30-2016 03:59 PM)Kronke Wrote: If the electoral college didn't exist, Trump could have spent all his time in California and New York and won even easier and even more big league. I don't get the fuss.
The electoral college is only "undemocratic" if the entire legislative process is, given that they carbon copies of one another. I'd bet you regressives/idiot millennials thought that the electoral college totaling 538 was just a coincidence.
That's the problem with idiot millennials. They think they are the first ones to ever think of this sh*t, and with safe space culture, no one ever tells them that they are jackasses with no original thoughts.
Educate yourselves.
i find it funny that the libs get blamed for safe space culture but it is always the cons requesting it for themselves.
RE: An end to the Electoral College protest non-sense
(11-30-2016 03:29 PM)john01992 Wrote:
(11-30-2016 03:07 PM)200yrs2late Wrote: The electoral college exists to preserve state's rights and power. The US is not a democracy, it is a representative republic and as such the EC is absolutely necessary to ensure that every state has a say in the election. If it didn't exist, NY and CA would determine the election and none of the other 48 states would have a say.
the fact you have to use exaggerations to build your case proves you have little to work with.
also for what is the 10,000th time: The US is a democracy. The term "republic" has absolutely no bearing on whether a nation is a democracy or not.
Germany is a republic, denmark is not. Ireland is a republic, The UK is not. South Korea is a republic, Japan is not. France is a republic, Spain is not. The US is a republic, Canada is not.
Oh and then there is China, Iran, Cuba, Syria, Turkey, Russia, and South Africa who are all Republics.
200 is right. James Madison, in fact, disagrees with you, but he's obviously less qualified than you on this issue.
RE: An end to the Electoral College protest non-sense
(11-30-2016 03:31 PM)john01992 Wrote:
(11-30-2016 02:49 PM)usmbacker Wrote:
(11-30-2016 02:43 PM)john01992 Wrote: card: the only people who think the "number of counties won" argument is valid are dumb partisan hacks. the fact they chose that argument as their focus is quite telling.
usm: you talk about butchering of history while doing that yourself. the authors of that article have a combined ZERO degrees in any field of history. also they say "it was not about protecting slavery" but provide literally zero basis for that explanation. they just inject that as a factual statement despite no evidence supporting it then have the audacity to say the 3/5th compromise was not proslavery. oh and right after that they mention Lincoln won only 39% of the popular vote trying to imply he lost the popular vote but ignore the fact that 1860 had four major candidates and the next closest candidate had only 29% of the popular vote. that article is entirely grade A bull**** making historical connections that are completely laughable.
UTSA: it's only your flawed political ideology who believes Trump has less association with foreign individuals and more fit to run the country than HRC.
so facts are inconvenient for you? I love how you don't even try to address any of the obvious flaws with that article and they are quite obvious.
Facts. Here is the cold hard fact. You can't live with the fact that Trump won, so you continue to post this crap. Trump won. Live with it or continue whining and crying. It really is pure entertainment.
RE: An end to the Electoral College protest non-sense
(11-30-2016 03:53 PM)solohawks Wrote: 3084 counties being ruled by 57 counties sounds like a recipe for disaster.
Exactly why the founders installed the EC. John cant accept this basic fact due to his partisanship. Unlike him?...I would still support the EC if it had been Hillary that won the 3084 counties.
You would not have heard a peep out of John if Hillary had won 3084 counties.
(This post was last modified: 12-01-2016 06:45 AM by Fo Shizzle.)
RE: An end to the Electoral College protest non-sense
(11-30-2016 03:29 PM)john01992 Wrote:
(11-30-2016 03:07 PM)200yrs2late Wrote:
(11-30-2016 01:35 PM)john01992 Wrote:
(11-30-2016 12:17 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote: This election was the PRIME example of why the Electoral College is necessary and valid. It worked exactly as it was supposed to do.
you are right. the purpose of the EC is because they envisioned situations like the 2016 election.
the founding fathers thought the people couldn't be trusted to make the right choice and if they elected for someone seen as unfit for POTUS the electors could negate the people's choice.
the people arguing on behalf of the EC have virtually no idea about why the EC exists. It was created to prevent people like Trump from becoming president.
The electoral college exists to preserve state's rights and power. The US is not a democracy, it is a representative republic and as such the EC is absolutely necessary to ensure that every state has a say in the election. If it didn't exist, NY and CA would determine the election and none of the other 48 states would have a say.
the fact you have to use exaggerations to build your case proves you have little to work with.
also for what is the 10,000th time: The US is a democracy. The term "republic" has absolutely no bearing on whether a nation is a democracy or not.
Germany is a republic, denmark is not. Ireland is a republic, The UK is not. South Korea is a republic, Japan is not. France is a republic, Spain is not. The US is a republic, Canada is not.
Oh and then there is China, Iran, Cuba, Syria, Turkey, Russia, and South Africa who are all Republics.
We do not have a direct Democracy. We have a representative Democracy. Unfortunately now Butthurt Liberals want to change that. Sorry..but..It is not gong to happen...period.
RE: An end to the Electoral College protest non-sense
(11-30-2016 01:35 PM)john01992 Wrote:
(11-30-2016 12:17 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote: This election was the PRIME example of why the Electoral College is necessary and valid. It worked exactly as it was supposed to do.
you are right. the purpose of the EC is because they envisioned situations like the 2016 election.
the founding fathers thought the people couldn't be trusted to make the right choice and if they elected for someone seen as unfit for POTUS the electors could negate the people's choice.
the people arguing on behalf of the EC have virtually no idea about why the EC exists. It was created to prevent people like Trump from becoming president.
John, you are correct and the write up in the OP correct. The EC serves several purposes. One is to do exactly as the OP claims - to provided more fair representation between the heavily populated and less populated states. The second is to be a final "sanity check" as you pointed out. However, the second point has been conceded for many many years. There have been plenty of times where someone could have been objectively deemed unfit to serve as president - but the trigger was never pulled. Barack Obama was a man that SHOULD have been bounced from being president.
Quote:Therefore, the direct election of the president is left up to those who have been selected by the voters to become the electors. This indirect election is justified by Hamilton because while a republic is still served, the system allows for only a certain type of person to be elected president, preventing individuals who are unfit for a variety of reasons to be in the position of chief executive of the country.
This is reflected in his later fears about the types of people who could potentially become president. He worries that corrupted individuals could, particularly those who are either more directly associated with a foreign state, or individuals who do not have the capacity to run the country. The former is covered by Article II, Section 1, v of the United States Constitution, while the latter is covered by Hamilton in Federalist 68, where he notes that the person who will become president will have to be a person who possesses the faculties necessary to be a president, stating that,
"Talents for low intrigue, and the little arts of popularity, may alone suffice to elevate a man to the first honors in a single State; but it will require other talents, and a different kind of merit, to establish him in the esteem and confidence of the whole Union, or of so considerable a portion of it as would be necessary to make him a successful candidate for the distinguished office of President of the United States"
This is Barack Obama in a nutshell. He was a popular choice based on his "talents" of orating and - let's be honest - his skin color. He had no tangible experience to be president. If the electoral college WAS going to do its job and "save the people from themselves", it would have done so in 2008. You could pick a variety of previous presidents and question their credentials and fitness for the office.
IMHO, any chance the EC would have had the stomach to thwart the election results went up in smoke with the enactment of the 17th amendment. When the constitution was amended to take the election of senators out of the hands of the state gov'ts and put directly into the hands of the people, that was the death knell of the gov't ever thwarting the will of the people from an election standpoint again.
RE: An end to the Electoral College protest non-sense
I think it would be more accurate to say that the electoral college protects the interests of the less populated states. Not the interests of the people. Which is a fair enough statement, and I would agree with this, as well as the logic behind this. But this is not what trump supporters mean when they claim that Hillary lost because she failed to reach out to enough people.
They mean to imply that Trump has a mandate from the voters. Which is non existent considering he lost the popular vote by a pretty staggering margin. One that is growing daily.
(This post was last modified: 12-01-2016 09:50 AM by fsquid.)
RE: An end to the Electoral College protest non-sense
Only liberals would know the rules going into an election. Lose, and then ***** about how it's not fair after. (Democrats still have a major advantage. All she had to do was hold onto a few states Obama won twice!). She couldn't do it, Trump won where they both knew they had to win. Game. Set. Match.
Instead of blaming the system, blame HRC for being a terrible candidate or the DNC for being a catastrophic mess.
RE: An end to the Electoral College protest non-sense
(11-30-2016 03:29 PM)john01992 Wrote:
(11-30-2016 03:07 PM)200yrs2late Wrote:
(11-30-2016 01:35 PM)john01992 Wrote:
(11-30-2016 12:17 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote: This election was the PRIME example of why the Electoral College is necessary and valid. It worked exactly as it was supposed to do.
you are right. the purpose of the EC is because they envisioned situations like the 2016 election.
the founding fathers thought the people couldn't be trusted to make the right choice and if they elected for someone seen as unfit for POTUS the electors could negate the people's choice.
the people arguing on behalf of the EC have virtually no idea about why the EC exists. It was created to prevent people like Trump from becoming president.
The electoral college exists to preserve state's rights and power. The US is not a democracy, it is a representative republic and as such the EC is absolutely necessary to ensure that every state has a say in the election. If it didn't exist, NY and CA would determine the election and none of the other 48 states would have a say.
the fact you have to use exaggerations to build your case proves you have little to work with.
also for what is the 10,000th time: The US is a democracy. The term "republic" has absolutely no bearing on whether a nation is a democracy or not.
Germany is a republic, denmark is not. Ireland is a republic, The UK is not. South Korea is a republic, Japan is not. France is a republic, Spain is not. The US is a republic, Canada is not.
Oh and then there is China, Iran, Cuba, Syria, Turkey, Russia, and South Africa who are all Republics.
Let me rephrase then since it is the key element that you seem to be unable to comprehend. The US is not a "direct" democracy. Simple majority does not rule - especially in the Presidential election.
The EC was not created to keep people like Trump from being elected. If you are referring to Hamilton's comments on the EC and it's necessity, you are under the impression that Trump manipulated the general population or there was some form of outside interference from other countries on Trump's behalf. Most would argue that it would have been pretty hard for Trump to somehow pull a fast one on the population as much media scrutiny as he faced.
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An end to the Electoral College protest non-sense
