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[split] Could the one-and-done NBA draft rule be challenged in court?
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Captain Bearcat Offline
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[split] Could the one-and-done NBA draft rule be challenged in court?
(10-03-2017 02:57 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(10-03-2017 09:24 AM)ken d Wrote:  I think a lot of college sports fans would see it that way, too. And maybe this isn't expressed as "freshman" eligibility. Maybe the requirement is set that an athlete must have completed 30 credits in required courses with at least a 2.5 GPA before he can compete. Then you can scrap all your rules about SAT scores and partial qualifiers. Make the President of the school personally certify the student's eligibility.

Let's say a bright high schooler, with some advanced placement credits, enrolls early (the spring semester). With AP, plus two full semesters and summer school, he could be eligible to play as soon as his fall semester grades are certified. These aren't the kids who are perceived as the problem. It is the marginal (or below marginal) student who is going to do the minimum necessary to be eligible for his first season and then bolt for the pros who is the problem.

With the current salary scale for the D league (or whatever it's called now) as a viable option for first year players, I can't see any legal challenge that could be successfully brought.

From the NBA's point of view, the one and done rule is as much about protecting the owners from their own foolishness as anything. If they can draft right out of high school, they will make a lot more mistakes, and expensive ones. We've seen that time and again. They won't pass on that 6'-10" player who isn't ready yet because of his "potential". The NCAA doesn't owe them anything.

I don't think the salary scale even matters actually.

People make the argument that it's unfair for the NBA to disallow kids to enter the league out of high school and that it's subsequently inhumane or some nonsense to "force" them to go to college. I can certainly understand why some high school kids might not like the rule, but so what? No one is entitled to the job they want when they want it. If kids don't want to sign an agreement to abide by amateurism in college then they don't have to do it.

I would love for someone to give me a job posting on a message board all day for $3 million, but I don't think anyone's going to give it to me. Same difference...I'm not legally entitled to a job if no one wants to give it to me.

It seems to me that a high school player would have a decent antitrust case against the NBA and the players union.

But it will never happen because any court case would drag out for years, and by that time they'd be in the NBA and benefiting from the system.
10-05-2017 10:17 AM
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Wedge Offline
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RE: Is it time to restore freshmen ineligibility rule?
(10-05-2017 10:17 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(10-03-2017 02:57 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(10-03-2017 09:24 AM)ken d Wrote:  I think a lot of college sports fans would see it that way, too. And maybe this isn't expressed as "freshman" eligibility. Maybe the requirement is set that an athlete must have completed 30 credits in required courses with at least a 2.5 GPA before he can compete. Then you can scrap all your rules about SAT scores and partial qualifiers. Make the President of the school personally certify the student's eligibility.

Let's say a bright high schooler, with some advanced placement credits, enrolls early (the spring semester). With AP, plus two full semesters and summer school, he could be eligible to play as soon as his fall semester grades are certified. These aren't the kids who are perceived as the problem. It is the marginal (or below marginal) student who is going to do the minimum necessary to be eligible for his first season and then bolt for the pros who is the problem.

With the current salary scale for the D league (or whatever it's called now) as a viable option for first year players, I can't see any legal challenge that could be successfully brought.

From the NBA's point of view, the one and done rule is as much about protecting the owners from their own foolishness as anything. If they can draft right out of high school, they will make a lot more mistakes, and expensive ones. We've seen that time and again. They won't pass on that 6'-10" player who isn't ready yet because of his "potential". The NCAA doesn't owe them anything.

I don't think the salary scale even matters actually.

People make the argument that it's unfair for the NBA to disallow kids to enter the league out of high school and that it's subsequently inhumane or some nonsense to "force" them to go to college. I can certainly understand why some high school kids might not like the rule, but so what? No one is entitled to the job they want when they want it. If kids don't want to sign an agreement to abide by amateurism in college then they don't have to do it.

I would love for someone to give me a job posting on a message board all day for $3 million, but I don't think anyone's going to give it to me. Same difference...I'm not legally entitled to a job if no one wants to give it to me.

It seems to me that a high school player would have a decent antitrust case against the NBA and the players union.

But it will never happen because any court case would drag out for years, and by that time they'd be in the NBA and benefiting from the system.

Right, the NBA knows its rule couldn't stand up in court. When the NBA draft only permitted teams to draft players who had been out of high school for four years, Spencer Haywood took the NBA to court and eventually won at the U.S. Supreme Court. So now the NBA has a one-year rule, knowing that they can delay any lawsuit longer than the one year a high school grad would have to wait to enter the NBA draft.
10-05-2017 10:41 AM
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ken d Online
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RE: Is it time to restore freshmen ineligibility rule?
(10-05-2017 10:41 AM)Wedge Wrote:  
(10-05-2017 10:17 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(10-03-2017 02:57 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(10-03-2017 09:24 AM)ken d Wrote:  I think a lot of college sports fans would see it that way, too. And maybe this isn't expressed as "freshman" eligibility. Maybe the requirement is set that an athlete must have completed 30 credits in required courses with at least a 2.5 GPA before he can compete. Then you can scrap all your rules about SAT scores and partial qualifiers. Make the President of the school personally certify the student's eligibility.

Let's say a bright high schooler, with some advanced placement credits, enrolls early (the spring semester). With AP, plus two full semesters and summer school, he could be eligible to play as soon as his fall semester grades are certified. These aren't the kids who are perceived as the problem. It is the marginal (or below marginal) student who is going to do the minimum necessary to be eligible for his first season and then bolt for the pros who is the problem.

With the current salary scale for the D league (or whatever it's called now) as a viable option for first year players, I can't see any legal challenge that could be successfully brought.

From the NBA's point of view, the one and done rule is as much about protecting the owners from their own foolishness as anything. If they can draft right out of high school, they will make a lot more mistakes, and expensive ones. We've seen that time and again. They won't pass on that 6'-10" player who isn't ready yet because of his "potential". The NCAA doesn't owe them anything.

I don't think the salary scale even matters actually.

People make the argument that it's unfair for the NBA to disallow kids to enter the league out of high school and that it's subsequently inhumane or some nonsense to "force" them to go to college. I can certainly understand why some high school kids might not like the rule, but so what? No one is entitled to the job they want when they want it. If kids don't want to sign an agreement to abide by amateurism in college then they don't have to do it.

I would love for someone to give me a job posting on a message board all day for $3 million, but I don't think anyone's going to give it to me. Same difference...I'm not legally entitled to a job if no one wants to give it to me.

It seems to me that a high school player would have a decent antitrust case against the NBA and the players union.

But it will never happen because any court case would drag out for years, and by that time they'd be in the NBA and benefiting from the system.

Right, the NBA knows its rule couldn't stand up in court. When the NBA draft only permitted teams to draft players who had been out of high school for four years, Spencer Haywood took the NBA to court and eventually won at the U.S. Supreme Court. So now the NBA has a one-year rule, knowing that they can delay any lawsuit longer than the one year a high school grad would have to wait to enter the NBA draft.

Actually, I think the NBA believes its rule would stand up in court. The difference between the Haywood case and now is that the current rule is part of the Collective Bargaining Agreement with the Players' Union.
10-05-2017 11:38 AM
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Phlipper33 Offline
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RE: Is it time to restore freshmen ineligibility rule?
While it is negotiated into the CBA, I'm still not sure it would hold up in court.

I could actually see LaMelo Ball challenge the rule, he's still 2 years away from finishing high school, so there's time for a court case.
10-05-2017 01:28 PM
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Wedge Offline
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RE: Is it time to restore freshmen ineligibility rule?
(10-05-2017 01:28 PM)Phlipper33 Wrote:  While it is negotiated into the CBA, I'm still not sure it would hold up in court.

I could actually see LaMelo Ball challenge the rule, he's still 2 years away from finishing high school, so there's time for a court case.

LaMelo would be a good test case. If he does not challenge the NBA rule, then he is barred from the NBA until after the 2020 NBA draft.

Also, though his dad says LaMelo will still do a one-and-done year at UCLA, the rumored shoe deal for LaMelo would make that impossible even if he could meet the NCAA's academic requirements after being home schooled for two years. LaMelo is likely looking at a 2019-20 season playing pro ball in Europe or otherwise going 3 years before the 2020 draft without playing on a high school, college, or pro team.
10-05-2017 02:32 PM
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ken d Online
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RE: Is it time to restore freshmen ineligibility rule?
(10-05-2017 01:28 PM)Phlipper33 Wrote:  While it is negotiated into the CBA, I'm still not sure it would hold up in court.

I could actually see LaMelo Ball challenge the rule, he's still 2 years away from finishing high school, so there's time for a court case.


https://sportslaw.uslegal.com/antitrust-...in-sports/

"In Wood v. National Basketball Association, 809 F.2d. 954 (2d. Cir. 1987), the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit dismissed a player’s antitrust claim challenging certain provisions of a CBA between the NBA and NBPA. Wood, a college senior, challenged the NBA salary cap, the NBA draft, and restricted free agency. The court found that the challenged provisions were mandatory subjects of collective bargaining and therefore were protected by the non-statutory labor exemption. This exemption describes the court’s holdings that any CBA will receive protection from federal antitrust laws."
(This post was last modified: 10-05-2017 03:09 PM by ken d.)
10-05-2017 03:08 PM
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RE: Is it time to restore freshmen ineligibility rule?
(10-05-2017 03:08 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(10-05-2017 01:28 PM)Phlipper33 Wrote:  While it is negotiated into the CBA, I'm still not sure it would hold up in court.

I could actually see LaMelo Ball challenge the rule, he's still 2 years away from finishing high school, so there's time for a court case.


https://sportslaw.uslegal.com/antitrust-...in-sports/

"In Wood v. National Basketball Association, 809 F.2d. 954 (2d. Cir. 1987), the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit dismissed a player’s antitrust claim challenging certain provisions of a CBA between the NBA and NBPA. Wood, a college senior, challenged the NBA salary cap, the NBA draft, and restricted free agency. The court found that the challenged provisions were mandatory subjects of collective bargaining and therefore were protected by the non-statutory labor exemption. This exemption describes the court’s holdings that any CBA will receive protection from federal antitrust laws."

Interesting. Two things though:
1) Age requirements are different than the salary cap, draft, and restricted free agency. An age requirement is discriminatory against some individuals (although those affected by the NBA's rule do not belong to a "protected class" so it might be legal discrimination).
2) That case is from 1987. Would the ruling would be the same if it was filed today in a right-to-work state? (I have no idea)
10-05-2017 03:34 PM
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RE: [split] Could the one-and-done NBA draft rule be challenged in court?
Splitting this off because it's really a separate topic and because here's a hint that a current player who may not be eligible to play in college might challenge the one-and-done rule.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketb...estigation

Quote:Quinerly was not explicitly named in the FBI documents, but he is committed to Arizona and was recruited by Arizona assistant Emanuel "Book" Richardson, who was one of the four assistants arrested. The documents allege a $15,000 bribe from Richardson to Player-5, who "verbally committed to attending" Arizona "on or about August 9, 2017." Quinerly committed to Arizona on August 8.

When asked on Saturday whether he accepted money, Quinerly responded: "I have no comment."
Quote:Quinerly said his family hired Alan Milstein, who represented Maurice Clarett in 2004 in his fight against the NFL's age minimum.
10-07-2017 03:27 PM
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Wolfman Offline
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RE: [split] Could the one-and-done NBA draft rule be challenged in court?
(10-05-2017 03:08 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(10-05-2017 01:28 PM)Phlipper33 Wrote:  While it is negotiated into the CBA, I'm still not sure it would hold up in court.

I could actually see LaMelo Ball challenge the rule, he's still 2 years away from finishing high school, so there's time for a court case.


https://sportslaw.uslegal.com/antitrust-...in-sports/

"In Wood v. National Basketball Association, 809 F.2d. 954 (2d. Cir. 1987), the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit dismissed a player’s antitrust claim challenging certain provisions of a CBA between the NBA and NBPA. Wood, a college senior, challenged the NBA salary cap, the NBA draft, and restricted free agency. The court found that the challenged provisions were mandatory subjects of collective bargaining and therefore were protected by the non-statutory labor exemption. This exemption describes the court’s holdings that any CBA will receive protection from federal antitrust laws."

I can see the importance of the CBA. However, does that agreement apply to athletes that are not parties to the CBA? If you join the NBPA you accept the terms of the CBA. That also means you would have to join the NBPA prior to being drafted. So the NBPA is open to every HS senior and college player?

Can the NBA legally say, "We only accept employees who are members of the NBPA?" Many states are "right to work" so you can not be forced to join a union.

Beyond that, I have issues with the whole draft process. Imagine graduating with a law degree and told you have to work for company X. That would never hold up in court, CBA or not.
10-08-2017 10:12 AM
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Post: #10
RE: [split] Could the one-and-done NBA draft rule be challenged in court?
(10-05-2017 11:38 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(10-05-2017 10:41 AM)Wedge Wrote:  
(10-05-2017 10:17 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(10-03-2017 02:57 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(10-03-2017 09:24 AM)ken d Wrote:  I think a lot of college sports fans would see it that way, too. And maybe this isn't expressed as "freshman" eligibility. Maybe the requirement is set that an athlete must have completed 30 credits in required courses with at least a 2.5 GPA before he can compete. Then you can scrap all your rules about SAT scores and partial qualifiers. Make the President of the school personally certify the student's eligibility.

Let's say a bright high schooler, with some advanced placement credits, enrolls early (the spring semester). With AP, plus two full semesters and summer school, he could be eligible to play as soon as his fall semester grades are certified. These aren't the kids who are perceived as the problem. It is the marginal (or below marginal) student who is going to do the minimum necessary to be eligible for his first season and then bolt for the pros who is the problem.

With the current salary scale for the D league (or whatever it's called now) as a viable option for first year players, I can't see any legal challenge that could be successfully brought.

From the NBA's point of view, the one and done rule is as much about protecting the owners from their own foolishness as anything. If they can draft right out of high school, they will make a lot more mistakes, and expensive ones. We've seen that time and again. They won't pass on that 6'-10" player who isn't ready yet because of his "potential". The NCAA doesn't owe them anything.

I don't think the salary scale even matters actually.

People make the argument that it's unfair for the NBA to disallow kids to enter the league out of high school and that it's subsequently inhumane or some nonsense to "force" them to go to college. I can certainly understand why some high school kids might not like the rule, but so what? No one is entitled to the job they want when they want it. If kids don't want to sign an agreement to abide by amateurism in college then they don't have to do it.

I would love for someone to give me a job posting on a message board all day for $3 million, but I don't think anyone's going to give it to me. Same difference...I'm not legally entitled to a job if no one wants to give it to me.

It seems to me that a high school player would have a decent antitrust case against the NBA and the players union.

But it will never happen because any court case would drag out for years, and by that time they'd be in the NBA and benefiting from the system.

Right, the NBA knows its rule couldn't stand up in court. When the NBA draft only permitted teams to draft players who had been out of high school for four years, Spencer Haywood took the NBA to court and eventually won at the U.S. Supreme Court. So now the NBA has a one-year rule, knowing that they can delay any lawsuit longer than the one year a high school grad would have to wait to enter the NBA draft.

Actually, I think the NBA believes its rule would stand up in court. The difference between the Haywood case and now is that the current rule is part of the Collective Bargaining Agreement with the Players' Union.

Right. On top of that, by the time it got through court, the case would be irrelevant to the person bringing the lawsuit.
10-08-2017 10:20 AM
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RE: [split] Could the one-and-done NBA draft rule be challenged in court?
(10-08-2017 10:12 AM)Wolfman Wrote:  
(10-05-2017 03:08 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(10-05-2017 01:28 PM)Phlipper33 Wrote:  While it is negotiated into the CBA, I'm still not sure it would hold up in court.

I could actually see LaMelo Ball challenge the rule, he's still 2 years away from finishing high school, so there's time for a court case.


https://sportslaw.uslegal.com/antitrust-...in-sports/

"In Wood v. National Basketball Association, 809 F.2d. 954 (2d. Cir. 1987), the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit dismissed a player’s antitrust claim challenging certain provisions of a CBA between the NBA and NBPA. Wood, a college senior, challenged the NBA salary cap, the NBA draft, and restricted free agency. The court found that the challenged provisions were mandatory subjects of collective bargaining and therefore were protected by the non-statutory labor exemption. This exemption describes the court’s holdings that any CBA will receive protection from federal antitrust laws."

I can see the importance of the CBA. However, does that agreement apply to athletes that are not parties to the CBA? If you join the NBPA you accept the terms of the CBA. That also means you would have to join the NBPA prior to being drafted. So the NBPA is open to every HS senior and college player?

Can the NBA legally say, "We only accept employees who are members of the NBPA?" Many states are "right to work" so you can not be forced to join a union.

Beyond that, I have issues with the whole draft process. Imagine graduating with a law degree and told you have to work for company X. That would never hold up in court, CBA or not.

Don't they do that for medical postdocs? I don't know the process intimately, but I thought that everyone (all postdocs and all hospitals) lists their preferences and gets "matched" through a national clearinghouse. On Match Day, the postdocs are more or less told where they're working and they can either take their match or leave the profession.
10-08-2017 05:54 PM
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Post: #12
RE: [split] Could the one-and-done NBA draft rule be challenged in court?
How well did all of those challenges to the NFL age limit go?
10-09-2017 12:22 PM
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RE: [split] Could the one-and-done NBA draft rule be challenged in court?
(10-08-2017 05:54 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(10-08-2017 10:12 AM)Wolfman Wrote:  
(10-05-2017 03:08 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(10-05-2017 01:28 PM)Phlipper33 Wrote:  While it is negotiated into the CBA, I'm still not sure it would hold up in court.

I could actually see LaMelo Ball challenge the rule, he's still 2 years away from finishing high school, so there's time for a court case.


https://sportslaw.uslegal.com/antitrust-...in-sports/

"In Wood v. National Basketball Association, 809 F.2d. 954 (2d. Cir. 1987), the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit dismissed a player’s antitrust claim challenging certain provisions of a CBA between the NBA and NBPA. Wood, a college senior, challenged the NBA salary cap, the NBA draft, and restricted free agency. The court found that the challenged provisions were mandatory subjects of collective bargaining and therefore were protected by the non-statutory labor exemption. This exemption describes the court’s holdings that any CBA will receive protection from federal antitrust laws."

I can see the importance of the CBA. However, does that agreement apply to athletes that are not parties to the CBA? If you join the NBPA you accept the terms of the CBA. That also means you would have to join the NBPA prior to being drafted. So the NBPA is open to every HS senior and college player?

Can the NBA legally say, "We only accept employees who are members of the NBPA?" Many states are "right to work" so you can not be forced to join a union.

Beyond that, I have issues with the whole draft process. Imagine graduating with a law degree and told you have to work for company X. That would never hold up in court, CBA or not.

Don't they do that for medical postdocs? I don't know the process intimately, but I thought that everyone (all postdocs and all hospitals) lists their preferences and gets "matched" through a national clearinghouse. On Match Day, the postdocs are more or less told where they're working and they can either take their match or leave the profession.

I believe you are referring to the internship process. Not all organizations have openings for all specialties. Even so, I don't believe it is remotely close to a pro sports draft. I believe it is more like a college application. You apply to several, get accepted by some, rejected by some. Then everybody moves down the list.
10-09-2017 01:45 PM
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ken d Online
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Post: #14
RE: [split] Could the one-and-done NBA draft rule be challenged in court?
(10-09-2017 01:45 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  
(10-08-2017 05:54 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(10-08-2017 10:12 AM)Wolfman Wrote:  
(10-05-2017 03:08 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(10-05-2017 01:28 PM)Phlipper33 Wrote:  While it is negotiated into the CBA, I'm still not sure it would hold up in court.

I could actually see LaMelo Ball challenge the rule, he's still 2 years away from finishing high school, so there's time for a court case.


https://sportslaw.uslegal.com/antitrust-...in-sports/

"In Wood v. National Basketball Association, 809 F.2d. 954 (2d. Cir. 1987), the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit dismissed a player’s antitrust claim challenging certain provisions of a CBA between the NBA and NBPA. Wood, a college senior, challenged the NBA salary cap, the NBA draft, and restricted free agency. The court found that the challenged provisions were mandatory subjects of collective bargaining and therefore were protected by the non-statutory labor exemption. This exemption describes the court’s holdings that any CBA will receive protection from federal antitrust laws."

I can see the importance of the CBA. However, does that agreement apply to athletes that are not parties to the CBA? If you join the NBPA you accept the terms of the CBA. That also means you would have to join the NBPA prior to being drafted. So the NBPA is open to every HS senior and college player?

Can the NBA legally say, "We only accept employees who are members of the NBPA?" Many states are "right to work" so you can not be forced to join a union.

Beyond that, I have issues with the whole draft process. Imagine graduating with a law degree and told you have to work for company X. That would never hold up in court, CBA or not.

Don't they do that for medical postdocs? I don't know the process intimately, but I thought that everyone (all postdocs and all hospitals) lists their preferences and gets "matched" through a national clearinghouse. On Match Day, the postdocs are more or less told where they're working and they can either take their match or leave the profession.

I believe you are referring to the internship process. Not all organizations have openings for all specialties. Even so, I don't believe it is remotely close to a pro sports draft. I believe it is more like a college application. You apply to several, get accepted by some, rejected by some. Then everybody moves down the list.

I think Bearcat's understanding is closer than yours, except for the leave the profession part. By the time you get to that point, you are already a licensed doctor. But without a residency your career options are much more limited.
10-09-2017 05:11 PM
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