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BeerCat Offline
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USMNT
Hot ******* garbage. The World Cup is by far my favorite sporting event to watch and these pathetic ******* couldn't even qualify. What a joke.

It will be interesting to see what this does to soccer in this country.
 
10-10-2017 09:06 PM
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The T-Shirt Offline
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Post: #2
RE: USMNT
Beyond embarrassing. There is simply no excuse. Pulisic is going to miss out on world cup experience. Is it the coaching? We just fired Klinsmann not too long ago, do we fire the coach again? Just... f$%king f$%k.

As for soccer in this country, it'll continue to grow, we just won't get nearly as big a World Cup bump now that these guys flopped.
 
10-10-2017 09:13 PM
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Banter Offline
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Post: #3
RE: USMNT
(10-10-2017 09:13 PM)The T-Shirt Wrote:  We just fired Klinsmann not too long ago, do we fire the coach again? Just... f$%king f$%k.

As for soccer in this country, it'll continue to grow, we just won't get nearly as big a World Cup bump now that these guys flopped.

Maybe we should not have hired a coach that we already fired once...As for Soccer in America... It will never be great until the system changes. American players are about a decade behind their counterparts from other countries due to the club and college system.
 
10-10-2017 09:17 PM
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BeerCat Offline
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RE: USMNT
Yeah Arena needs to be fired asap. Probably Gulati also. Missing the World Cup should be unforgivable at this point.

And someone needs to kidnap Pulisic and make him play in MLS. I know the competition doesn't compare but the US needs him to be the face of US soccer.
 
10-10-2017 09:45 PM
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RE: USMNT
http://www.espnfc.com/world-cup-qualifyi...eo/3226307 great rant from Taylor Twellman on this embarrassment.
 
10-10-2017 09:58 PM
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Post: #6
RE: USMNT
(10-10-2017 09:45 PM)BeerCat Wrote:  Yeah Arena needs to be fired asap. Probably Gulati also. Missing the World Cup should be unforgivable at this point.

And someone needs to kidnap Pulisic and make him play in MLS. I know the competition doesn't compare but the US needs him to be the face of US soccer.
The reason he's as good as he is is because he escaped the regressive MLS development system for Europe as young as possible.

Relying on MLS for talent has left the national team stagnating, and now missing out on the World Cup. If we want to be the best internationally, our players have to play regularly against the best clubs in the world.
 
10-10-2017 11:19 PM
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RE: USMNT
The problem is our to pay to play system that develops good players but not world class players. This is a disaster and a wake up call however I doubt things will change.
 
10-11-2017 12:09 AM
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BeerCat Offline
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RE: USMNT
(10-10-2017 11:19 PM)InspectorHound Wrote:  
(10-10-2017 09:45 PM)BeerCat Wrote:  Yeah Arena needs to be fired asap. Probably Gulati also. Missing the World Cup should be unforgivable at this point.

And someone needs to kidnap Pulisic and make him play in MLS. I know the competition doesn't compare but the US needs him to be the face of US soccer.
The reason he's as good as he is is because he escaped the regressive MLS development system for Europe as young as possible.

Relying on MLS for talent has left the national team stagnating, and now missing out on the World Cup. If we want to be the best internationally, our players have to play regularly against the best clubs in the world.

I totally agree but at some point the US needs US players to stay home and become stars in this country if the sport is truly going to grow.
 
10-11-2017 07:14 AM
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Banter Offline
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RE: USMNT
(10-10-2017 11:19 PM)InspectorHound Wrote:  
(10-10-2017 09:45 PM)BeerCat Wrote:  Yeah Arena needs to be fired asap. Probably Gulati also. Missing the World Cup should be unforgivable at this point.

And someone needs to kidnap Pulisic and make him play in MLS. I know the competition doesn't compare but the US needs him to be the face of US soccer.
The reason he's as good as he is is because he escaped the regressive MLS development system for Europe as young as possible.

Relying on MLS for talent has left the national team stagnating, and now missing out on the World Cup. If we want to be the best internationally, our players have to play regularly against the best clubs in the world.

To blame the MLS for the state of US Soccer is just wrong. The MLS has been nothing but a boon to the USMNT and soccer in this country. There are things the MLS could do better, but that is a different discussion.

The problems are systematic within US sports culture, and it really hurts soccer the most. To have a chance in soccer in the US you have to have money. Thats completely opposite of the rest of the world. Development should be handled by teams, and not pay to play club teams.

Youth academies in England start around age 9. Scouts identify potential talent, and those kids then go to a youth center for a trial. If they are signed they train with the club, and hope to make it through the academy. Take Ajax for example. They sign kids at age 7. Every day buses go and pick these kids up during the school day, they are tutored, and then they train with professional certified coaches. The only cost to the family is a 12 euro a year insurance fee. Everything else is covered by the club.

American's are forced to pay large sums for semi competitive soccer, and play for coaches nowhere as skilled at developing talent. Some are volunteer parents, and really will never develop real talent. Kids then can go play in college where the teams are made up of kids who lack the touches and or skill that European u16 teams posses.

If an American player follows the "normal" path of development he is turning pro around 21-23 after graduating from college, and getting drafted into the MLS, and that is 5 years after most European players have become pro's and spent the last 5 years training like a pro.

Its no shock that nations with the population of Texas turn out far more elite talent than the USA. They have the infrastructure, and spend the money to do so, while we continue with a club soccer system that turns away the best talent because it is far too expensive to play.

We could be turning out the best talent in the world if we had the infastructure to do so, but instead the best athletes often choose football, or basketball, because those are the only sports where you can succeed by playing in the school system without paying an absurd amount of money.
 
10-11-2017 07:36 AM
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Post: #10
RE: USMNT
(10-11-2017 07:36 AM)Banter Wrote:  
(10-10-2017 11:19 PM)InspectorHound Wrote:  
(10-10-2017 09:45 PM)BeerCat Wrote:  Yeah Arena needs to be fired asap. Probably Gulati also. Missing the World Cup should be unforgivable at this point.

And someone needs to kidnap Pulisic and make him play in MLS. I know the competition doesn't compare but the US needs him to be the face of US soccer.
The reason he's as good as he is is because he escaped the regressive MLS development system for Europe as young as possible.

Relying on MLS for talent has left the national team stagnating, and now missing out on the World Cup. If we want to be the best internationally, our players have to play regularly against the best clubs in the world.

To blame the MLS for the state of US Soccer is just wrong. The MLS has been nothing but a boon to the USMNT and soccer in this country. There are things the MLS could do better, but that is a different discussion.

The problems are systematic within US sports culture, and it really hurts soccer the most. To have a chance in soccer in the US you have to have money. Thats completely opposite of the rest of the world. Development should be handled by teams, and not pay to play club teams.

Youth academies in England start around age 9. Scouts identify potential talent, and those kids then go to a youth center for a trial. If they are signed they train with the club, and hope to make it through the academy. Take Ajax for example. They sign kids at age 7. Every day buses go and pick these kids up during the school day, they are tutored, and then they train with professional certified coaches. The only cost to the family is a 12 euro a year insurance fee. Everything else is covered by the club.

American's are forced to pay large sums for semi competitive soccer, and play for coaches nowhere as skilled at developing talent. Some are volunteer parents, and really will never develop real talent. Kids then can go play in college where the teams are made up of kids who lack the touches and or skill that European u16 teams posses.

If an American player follows the "normal" path of development he is turning pro around 21-23 after graduating from college, and getting drafted into the MLS, and that is 5 years after most European players have become pro's and spent the last 5 years training like a pro.

Its no shock that nations with the population of Texas turn out far more elite talent than the USA. They have the infrastructure, and spend the money to do so, while we continue with a club soccer system that turns away the best talent because it is far too expensive to play.

We could be turning out the best talent in the world if we had the infastructure to do so, but instead the best athletes often choose football, or basketball, because those are the only sports where you can succeed by playing in the school system without paying an absurd amount of money.

To give a more direct bit of evidence for this in order to better characterize how much the pay to play scheme is screwing over talent development:

The team I played for in the late 90's and Early 00's was Adidas Premier (later The Internationals) out of Cleveland. At the time it was $300/season, which was a lot back then, but something that the players could scrounge up, and even when they couldn't as with Kiki Willis (the best HS soccer player I have ever seen) they waived it entirely because Adidas funded the program. Of the starting 11, 9 of us ended up playing in college and two are playing professionally...5 of those players I know for a fact (myself and Darlington Nagbe included) could not afford the dues that are required now: $2100/season. To be clear, the reliance on the college game is another nail in the coffin, and luckily it appears that the upcoming generation is avoiding that. I played in college (as with many of my former teammates) because it was a way to get a reduced price degree, not because we saw a way to play professionally. You look at players like Jordan Morris who wasted years of development playing for a college rather than going directly into the pro ranks, and now you know why he has been passed by others who haven't.

Soccer has been marked as a profit center by clubs because it was typically larger in well-off suburbs in the 70's-90's, but in doing so, it has limited the Federation's ability to properly evaluate and develop talent in the State Federations, which should be free to play and grant opportunities for tryouts to anyone willing. I believe the Olympic Development Program in Ohio is now over $5,000/year...which is a barrier for entry for so many people we will never be able to find the talent that I know is out there.

MLS has nothing to do with the misgivings of the the USMNT IMO. The players who came back because of the designated player system (Altidore, Howard, Bradley, Bedoya, etc.) are at fault because they became lazy, and the USSF are at fault because while they should be able removing barriers for entry, they are actually putting them up. MLS has done more for access, identification, and development of talent in the last 5 years than USSF has, and thats what the USSF's job is.

We have a lost generation of soccer players that was propagated because of minimized access and a lack of academies at the time of development, that basically made the players within a certain age group obsolete. Seriously, look at our player pool and find me one person between ages 24-28 (the athletic prime for soccer players), who were born in the US and developed in the US who are worth a damn. I know for a fact you can't. The only people who contribute from that age group are Brooks (a German who only stepped foot in the US on holidays) and Wood (who moved over to Germany at age 15). Luckily it appears our U-20 and U17 talent has risen...but oddly enough, the impact players on those teams are avoiding the American system like the plague (Weah, Sargent, Lennon, McKennie, De La Torre, Zelalem, CCV, EPB, Olusonde, Dest, Isaiah Young, Haji Wright, etc.).

It starts and ends with the fact that USSF are worried about profits more than development, and that has completely limited the player pool for an entire generation that should be in their primes at the moment.
 
(This post was last modified: 10-11-2017 08:01 AM by BearcatMan.)
10-11-2017 07:58 AM
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Post: #11
RE: USMNT
(10-11-2017 07:58 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(10-11-2017 07:36 AM)Banter Wrote:  
(10-10-2017 11:19 PM)InspectorHound Wrote:  
(10-10-2017 09:45 PM)BeerCat Wrote:  Yeah Arena needs to be fired asap. Probably Gulati also. Missing the World Cup should be unforgivable at this point.

And someone needs to kidnap Pulisic and make him play in MLS. I know the competition doesn't compare but the US needs him to be the face of US soccer.
The reason he's as good as he is is because he escaped the regressive MLS development system for Europe as young as possible.

Relying on MLS for talent has left the national team stagnating, and now missing out on the World Cup. If we want to be the best internationally, our players have to play regularly against the best clubs in the world.

To blame the MLS for the state of US Soccer is just wrong. The MLS has been nothing but a boon to the USMNT and soccer in this country. There are things the MLS could do better, but that is a different discussion.

The problems are systematic within US sports culture, and it really hurts soccer the most. To have a chance in soccer in the US you have to have money. Thats completely opposite of the rest of the world. Development should be handled by teams, and not pay to play club teams.

Youth academies in England start around age 9. Scouts identify potential talent, and those kids then go to a youth center for a trial. If they are signed they train with the club, and hope to make it through the academy. Take Ajax for example. They sign kids at age 7. Every day buses go and pick these kids up during the school day, they are tutored, and then they train with professional certified coaches. The only cost to the family is a 12 euro a year insurance fee. Everything else is covered by the club.

American's are forced to pay large sums for semi competitive soccer, and play for coaches nowhere as skilled at developing talent. Some are volunteer parents, and really will never develop real talent. Kids then can go play in college where the teams are made up of kids who lack the touches and or skill that European u16 teams posses.

If an American player follows the "normal" path of development he is turning pro around 21-23 after graduating from college, and getting drafted into the MLS, and that is 5 years after most European players have become pro's and spent the last 5 years training like a pro.

Its no shock that nations with the population of Texas turn out far more elite talent than the USA. They have the infrastructure, and spend the money to do so, while we continue with a club soccer system that turns away the best talent because it is far too expensive to play.

We could be turning out the best talent in the world if we had the infastructure to do so, but instead the best athletes often choose football, or basketball, because those are the only sports where you can succeed by playing in the school system without paying an absurd amount of money.

To give a more direct bit of evidence for this in order to better characterize how much the pay to play scheme is screwing over talent development:

The team I played for in the late 90's and Early 00's was Adidas Premier (later The Internationals) out of Cleveland. At the time it was $300/season, which was a lot back then, but something that the players could scrounge up, and even when they couldn't as with Kiki Willis (the best HS soccer player I have ever seen) they waived it entirely because Adidas funded the program. Of the starting 11, 9 of us ended up playing in college and two are playing professionally...5 of those players I know for a fact (myself and Darlington Nagbe included) could not afford the dues that are required now: $2100/season. To be clear, the reliance on the college game is another nail in the coffin, and luckily it appears that the upcoming generation is avoiding that. I played in college (as with many of my former teammates) because it was a way to get a reduced price degree, not because we saw a way to play professionally. You look at players like Jordan Morris who wasted years of development playing for a college rather than going directly into the pro ranks, and now you know why he has been passed by others who haven't.

Soccer has been marked as a profit center by clubs because it was typically larger in well-off suburbs in the 70's-90's, but in doing so, it has limited the Federation's ability to properly evaluate and develop talent in the State Federations, which should be free to play and grant opportunities for tryouts to anyone willing. I believe the Olympic Development Program in Ohio is now over $5,000/year...which is a barrier for entry for so many people we will never be able to find the talent that I know is out there.

MLS has nothing to do with the misgivings of the the USMNT IMO. The players who came back because of the designated player system (Altidore, Howard, Bradley, Bedoya, etc.) are at fault because they became lazy, and the USSF are at fault because while they should be able removing barriers for entry, they are actually putting them up. MLS has done more for access, identification, and development of talent in the last 5 years than USSF has, and thats what the USSF's job is.

We have a lost generation of soccer players that was propagated because of minimized access and a lack of academies at the time of development, that basically made the players within a certain age group obsolete. Seriously, look at our player pool and find me one person between ages 24-28 (the athletic prime for soccer players), who were born in the US and developed in the US who are worth a damn. I know for a fact you can't. The only people who contribute from that age group are Brooks (a German who only stepped foot in the US on holidays) and Wood (who moved over to Germany at age 15). Luckily it appears our U-20 and U17 talent has risen...but oddly enough, the impact players on those teams are avoiding the American system like the plague (Weah, Sargent, Lennon, McKennie, De La Torre, Zelalem, CCV, EPB, Olusonde, Dest, Isaiah Young, Haji Wright, etc.).

It starts and ends with the fact that USSF are worried about profits more than development, and that has completely limited the player pool for an entire generation that should be in their primes at the moment.

You obviously know a million times more about this than I do, but what level of education are the kids getting that go to these youth academies? I'm not a big fan of pulling kids that are good athletes at 9/10/11/12 out of school so that 1% of them can play on our world cup team.
 
10-11-2017 08:18 AM
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BearcatMan Offline
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Post: #12
RE: USMNT
(10-11-2017 08:18 AM)skylinecat Wrote:  
(10-11-2017 07:58 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  To give a more direct bit of evidence for this in order to better characterize how much the pay to play scheme is screwing over talent development:

The team I played for in the late 90's and Early 00's was Adidas Premier (later The Internationals) out of Cleveland. At the time it was $300/season, which was a lot back then, but something that the players could scrounge up, and even when they couldn't as with Kiki Willis (the best HS soccer player I have ever seen) they waived it entirely because Adidas funded the program. Of the starting 11, 9 of us ended up playing in college and two are playing professionally...5 of those players I know for a fact (myself and Darlington Nagbe included) could not afford the dues that are required now: $2100/season. To be clear, the reliance on the college game is another nail in the coffin, and luckily it appears that the upcoming generation is avoiding that. I played in college (as with many of my former teammates) because it was a way to get a reduced price degree, not because we saw a way to play professionally. You look at players like Jordan Morris who wasted years of development playing for a college rather than going directly into the pro ranks, and now you know why he has been passed by others who haven't.

Soccer has been marked as a profit center by clubs because it was typically larger in well-off suburbs in the 70's-90's, but in doing so, it has limited the Federation's ability to properly evaluate and develop talent in the State Federations, which should be free to play and grant opportunities for tryouts to anyone willing. I believe the Olympic Development Program in Ohio is now over $5,000/year...which is a barrier for entry for so many people we will never be able to find the talent that I know is out there.

MLS has nothing to do with the misgivings of the the USMNT IMO. The players who came back because of the designated player system (Altidore, Howard, Bradley, Bedoya, etc.) are at fault because they became lazy, and the USSF are at fault because while they should be able removing barriers for entry, they are actually putting them up. MLS has done more for access, identification, and development of talent in the last 5 years than USSF has, and thats what the USSF's job is.

We have a lost generation of soccer players that was propagated because of minimized access and a lack of academies at the time of development, that basically made the players within a certain age group obsolete. Seriously, look at our player pool and find me one person between ages 24-28 (the athletic prime for soccer players), who were born in the US and developed in the US who are worth a damn. I know for a fact you can't. The only people who contribute from that age group are Brooks (a German who only stepped foot in the US on holidays) and Wood (who moved over to Germany at age 15). Luckily it appears our U-20 and U17 talent has risen...but oddly enough, the impact players on those teams are avoiding the American system like the plague (Weah, Sargent, Lennon, McKennie, De La Torre, Zelalem, CCV, EPB, Olusonde, Dest, Isaiah Young, Haji Wright, etc.).

It starts and ends with the fact that USSF are worried about profits more than development, and that has completely limited the player pool for an entire generation that should be in their primes at the moment.

You obviously know a million times more about this than I do, but what level of education are the kids getting that go to these youth academies? I'm not a big fan of pulling kids that are good athletes at 9/10/11/12 out of school so that 1% of them can play on our world cup team.

Most of the kids in the MLS academies are getting educated at their school of choice and "working" at the training academies after school...they also know by the age of 18 if they're going to be playing professionally or if they need to take advantage of other opportunities. For every one Andrew Carleton (17 year old Atlanta wunderkind), there are 5 kids who are told they're going to need to pursue other ventures...and the good thing is those kids can still move on to University because of the exposure they're getting. Most of the Euro clubs actually have what they call formations academies that are full-service educational entities through to their equivalent of 12th grade here with additional life skills training. The good thing is that both the players and the teams know the situation and are very up front about it all. It's the outside pay-to-play "Premier" clubs, not the academies, that give people delusions of grandeur.

You see, the biggest issue in the US is that development is put on entities that are not trained to provide it, or who cost far more than they give in return. The advent of the MLS youth academies has spurned a huge influx of young talent (just look at the performance of the U20 and U17 national teams), but we're trying to work out of a hole that profitization of the sport and reliance on college as a form of development has put us in. Literally none of the European academies cost what our clubs do in the US...and that's beginning to change with the MLS academies, but we're still working from a position of weakness. What the USSF need to do is develop a better way to grant higher level developmental access to all parties, rather than making people pay an arm and a leg for it (the ODP/USSF program is completely broken and an insane outlier on the global stage).

To be fair, the Academy system is in no way different from the way basketball is done now. You have quite a few players every year going to schools dedicated to basketball because they've been identified as athletes with promise. Hell, look at what IMG Academy is doing for football, I don't think there is a single person paying for that school whether through grants or sponsorship, and every player on their football team has college scholarship offers.
 
(This post was last modified: 10-11-2017 08:41 AM by BearcatMan.)
10-11-2017 08:37 AM
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Banter Offline
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Post: #13
RE: USMNT
(10-11-2017 08:37 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(10-11-2017 08:18 AM)skylinecat Wrote:  
(10-11-2017 07:58 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  To give a more direct bit of evidence for this in order to better characterize how much the pay to play scheme is screwing over talent development:

The team I played for in the late 90's and Early 00's was Adidas Premier (later The Internationals) out of Cleveland. At the time it was $300/season, which was a lot back then, but something that the players could scrounge up, and even when they couldn't as with Kiki Willis (the best HS soccer player I have ever seen) they waived it entirely because Adidas funded the program. Of the starting 11, 9 of us ended up playing in college and two are playing professionally...5 of those players I know for a fact (myself and Darlington Nagbe included) could not afford the dues that are required now: $2100/season. To be clear, the reliance on the college game is another nail in the coffin, and luckily it appears that the upcoming generation is avoiding that. I played in college (as with many of my former teammates) because it was a way to get a reduced price degree, not because we saw a way to play professionally. You look at players like Jordan Morris who wasted years of development playing for a college rather than going directly into the pro ranks, and now you know why he has been passed by others who haven't.

Soccer has been marked as a profit center by clubs because it was typically larger in well-off suburbs in the 70's-90's, but in doing so, it has limited the Federation's ability to properly evaluate and develop talent in the State Federations, which should be free to play and grant opportunities for tryouts to anyone willing. I believe the Olympic Development Program in Ohio is now over $5,000/year...which is a barrier for entry for so many people we will never be able to find the talent that I know is out there.

MLS has nothing to do with the misgivings of the the USMNT IMO. The players who came back because of the designated player system (Altidore, Howard, Bradley, Bedoya, etc.) are at fault because they became lazy, and the USSF are at fault because while they should be able removing barriers for entry, they are actually putting them up. MLS has done more for access, identification, and development of talent in the last 5 years than USSF has, and thats what the USSF's job is.

We have a lost generation of soccer players that was propagated because of minimized access and a lack of academies at the time of development, that basically made the players within a certain age group obsolete. Seriously, look at our player pool and find me one person between ages 24-28 (the athletic prime for soccer players), who were born in the US and developed in the US who are worth a damn. I know for a fact you can't. The only people who contribute from that age group are Brooks (a German who only stepped foot in the US on holidays) and Wood (who moved over to Germany at age 15). Luckily it appears our U-20 and U17 talent has risen...but oddly enough, the impact players on those teams are avoiding the American system like the plague (Weah, Sargent, Lennon, McKennie, De La Torre, Zelalem, CCV, EPB, Olusonde, Dest, Isaiah Young, Haji Wright, etc.).

It starts and ends with the fact that USSF are worried about profits more than development, and that has completely limited the player pool for an entire generation that should be in their primes at the moment.

You obviously know a million times more about this than I do, but what level of education are the kids getting that go to these youth academies? I'm not a big fan of pulling kids that are good athletes at 9/10/11/12 out of school so that 1% of them can play on our world cup team.

Most of the kids in the MLS academies are getting educated at their school of choice and "working" at the training academies after school...they also know by the age of 18 if they're going to be playing professionally or if they need to take advantage of other opportunities. For every one Andrew Carleton (17 year old Atlanta wunderkind), there are 5 kids who are told they're going to need to pursue other ventures...and the good thing is those kids can still move on to University because of the exposure they're getting. Most of the Euro clubs actually have what they call formations academies that are full-service educational entities through to their equivalent of 12th grade here with additional life skills training. The good thing is that both the players and the teams know the situation and are very up front about it all. It's the outside pay-to-play "Premier" clubs, not the academies, that give people delusions of grandeur.

You see, the biggest issue in the US is that development is put on entities that are not trained to provide it, or who cost far more than they give in return. The advent of the MLS youth academies has spurned a huge influx of young talent (just look at the performance of the U20 and U17 national teams), but we're trying to work out of a hole that profitization of the sport and reliance on college as a form of development has put us in. Literally none of the European academies cost what our clubs do in the US...and that's beginning to change with the MLS academies, but we're still working from a position of weakness. What the USSF need to do is develop a better way to grant higher level developmental access to all parties, rather than making people pay an arm and a leg for it (the ODP/USSF program is completely broken and an insane outlier on the global stage).

Bearcatman has answered most of your question, but I think it deserves note that these kids in the academies are not being pulled out of school to train for a national team. They are training for club teams. All clubs have their own academies, and work on creating their own homegrown players. The Ajax academy has kids 12 and under train 3 days a week with one game, so they still spend time at their school, but also with tutors from the club.

These clubs all have a couple hundred kids, and a lot of them never make it through. Kids of all ages are told that they won't be returning. I am sure other academies may pick some of the kids up, but many will have to return to school. I have not heard of any issues of a lack of education from academy kids leaving the academies.

Looking at many issues surrounding public education in the US, you might think that a soccer clubs academy may give out a better education. Think how many languages a European soccer player might have to learn...they are not dummies.

I will reiterate again, that the cost to a parent for a kid who gets invited to Ajax's academy, which may be the best academy in Europe (De Toekomst) is 12 euro's a year. 12 euros to work with certified coaches, and former players.

The profit is to be made by the end product, not as a talent mill for parents money.
 
10-11-2017 08:52 AM
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skylinecat Offline
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Post: #14
RE: USMNT
(10-11-2017 08:37 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(10-11-2017 08:18 AM)skylinecat Wrote:  
(10-11-2017 07:58 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  To give a more direct bit of evidence for this in order to better characterize how much the pay to play scheme is screwing over talent development:

The team I played for in the late 90's and Early 00's was Adidas Premier (later The Internationals) out of Cleveland. At the time it was $300/season, which was a lot back then, but something that the players could scrounge up, and even when they couldn't as with Kiki Willis (the best HS soccer player I have ever seen) they waived it entirely because Adidas funded the program. Of the starting 11, 9 of us ended up playing in college and two are playing professionally...5 of those players I know for a fact (myself and Darlington Nagbe included) could not afford the dues that are required now: $2100/season. To be clear, the reliance on the college game is another nail in the coffin, and luckily it appears that the upcoming generation is avoiding that. I played in college (as with many of my former teammates) because it was a way to get a reduced price degree, not because we saw a way to play professionally. You look at players like Jordan Morris who wasted years of development playing for a college rather than going directly into the pro ranks, and now you know why he has been passed by others who haven't.

Soccer has been marked as a profit center by clubs because it was typically larger in well-off suburbs in the 70's-90's, but in doing so, it has limited the Federation's ability to properly evaluate and develop talent in the State Federations, which should be free to play and grant opportunities for tryouts to anyone willing. I believe the Olympic Development Program in Ohio is now over $5,000/year...which is a barrier for entry for so many people we will never be able to find the talent that I know is out there.

MLS has nothing to do with the misgivings of the the USMNT IMO. The players who came back because of the designated player system (Altidore, Howard, Bradley, Bedoya, etc.) are at fault because they became lazy, and the USSF are at fault because while they should be able removing barriers for entry, they are actually putting them up. MLS has done more for access, identification, and development of talent in the last 5 years than USSF has, and thats what the USSF's job is.

We have a lost generation of soccer players that was propagated because of minimized access and a lack of academies at the time of development, that basically made the players within a certain age group obsolete. Seriously, look at our player pool and find me one person between ages 24-28 (the athletic prime for soccer players), who were born in the US and developed in the US who are worth a damn. I know for a fact you can't. The only people who contribute from that age group are Brooks (a German who only stepped foot in the US on holidays) and Wood (who moved over to Germany at age 15). Luckily it appears our U-20 and U17 talent has risen...but oddly enough, the impact players on those teams are avoiding the American system like the plague (Weah, Sargent, Lennon, McKennie, De La Torre, Zelalem, CCV, EPB, Olusonde, Dest, Isaiah Young, Haji Wright, etc.).

It starts and ends with the fact that USSF are worried about profits more than development, and that has completely limited the player pool for an entire generation that should be in their primes at the moment.

You obviously know a million times more about this than I do, but what level of education are the kids getting that go to these youth academies? I'm not a big fan of pulling kids that are good athletes at 9/10/11/12 out of school so that 1% of them can play on our world cup team.

Most of the kids in the MLS academies are getting educated at their school of choice and "working" at the training academies after school...they also know by the age of 18 if they're going to be playing professionally or if they need to take advantage of other opportunities. For every one Andrew Carleton (17 year old Atlanta wunderkind), there are 5 kids who are told they're going to need to pursue other ventures...and the good thing is those kids can still move on to University because of the exposure they're getting. Most of the Euro clubs actually have what they call formations academies that are full-service educational entities through to their equivalent of 12th grade here with additional life skills training. The good thing is that both the players and the teams know the situation and are very up front about it all. It's the outside pay-to-play "Premier" clubs, not the academies, that give people delusions of grandeur.

You see, the biggest issue in the US is that development is put on entities that are not trained to provide it, or who cost far more than they give in return. The advent of the MLS youth academies has spurned a huge influx of young talent (just look at the performance of the U20 and U17 national teams), but we're trying to work out of a hole that profitization of the sport and reliance on college as a form of development has put us in. Literally none of the European academies cost what our clubs do in the US...and that's beginning to change with the MLS academies, but we're still working from a position of weakness. What the USSF need to do is develop a better way to grant higher level developmental access to all parties, rather than making people pay an arm and a leg for it (the ODP/USSF program is completely broken and an insane outlier on the global stage).

To be fair, the Academy system is in no way different from the way basketball is done now. You have quite a few players every year going to schools dedicated to basketball because they've been identified as athletes with promise. Hell, look at what IMG Academy is doing for football, I don't think there is a single person paying for that school whether through grants or sponsorship, and every player on their football team has college scholarship offers.

Are the US academies more expensive because the teams aren't making money on the top end? I can't imagine any US soccer teams are pulling nearly the revenue of their European counterparts? Sorry for badgering. I literally know nothing about how all this works. I assumed the kids that played for the US national team were just really good high school players that got noticed or played in something similar to the "juniors" system in hockey.
 
10-11-2017 09:41 AM
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BearcatMan Offline
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Post: #15
RE: USMNT
(10-11-2017 09:41 AM)skylinecat Wrote:  
(10-11-2017 08:37 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(10-11-2017 08:18 AM)skylinecat Wrote:  
(10-11-2017 07:58 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  To give a more direct bit of evidence for this in order to better characterize how much the pay to play scheme is screwing over talent development:

The team I played for in the late 90's and Early 00's was Adidas Premier (later The Internationals) out of Cleveland. At the time it was $300/season, which was a lot back then, but something that the players could scrounge up, and even when they couldn't as with Kiki Willis (the best HS soccer player I have ever seen) they waived it entirely because Adidas funded the program. Of the starting 11, 9 of us ended up playing in college and two are playing professionally...5 of those players I know for a fact (myself and Darlington Nagbe included) could not afford the dues that are required now: $2100/season. To be clear, the reliance on the college game is another nail in the coffin, and luckily it appears that the upcoming generation is avoiding that. I played in college (as with many of my former teammates) because it was a way to get a reduced price degree, not because we saw a way to play professionally. You look at players like Jordan Morris who wasted years of development playing for a college rather than going directly into the pro ranks, and now you know why he has been passed by others who haven't.

Soccer has been marked as a profit center by clubs because it was typically larger in well-off suburbs in the 70's-90's, but in doing so, it has limited the Federation's ability to properly evaluate and develop talent in the State Federations, which should be free to play and grant opportunities for tryouts to anyone willing. I believe the Olympic Development Program in Ohio is now over $5,000/year...which is a barrier for entry for so many people we will never be able to find the talent that I know is out there.

MLS has nothing to do with the misgivings of the the USMNT IMO. The players who came back because of the designated player system (Altidore, Howard, Bradley, Bedoya, etc.) are at fault because they became lazy, and the USSF are at fault because while they should be able removing barriers for entry, they are actually putting them up. MLS has done more for access, identification, and development of talent in the last 5 years than USSF has, and thats what the USSF's job is.

We have a lost generation of soccer players that was propagated because of minimized access and a lack of academies at the time of development, that basically made the players within a certain age group obsolete. Seriously, look at our player pool and find me one person between ages 24-28 (the athletic prime for soccer players), who were born in the US and developed in the US who are worth a damn. I know for a fact you can't. The only people who contribute from that age group are Brooks (a German who only stepped foot in the US on holidays) and Wood (who moved over to Germany at age 15). Luckily it appears our U-20 and U17 talent has risen...but oddly enough, the impact players on those teams are avoiding the American system like the plague (Weah, Sargent, Lennon, McKennie, De La Torre, Zelalem, CCV, EPB, Olusonde, Dest, Isaiah Young, Haji Wright, etc.).

It starts and ends with the fact that USSF are worried about profits more than development, and that has completely limited the player pool for an entire generation that should be in their primes at the moment.

You obviously know a million times more about this than I do, but what level of education are the kids getting that go to these youth academies? I'm not a big fan of pulling kids that are good athletes at 9/10/11/12 out of school so that 1% of them can play on our world cup team.

Most of the kids in the MLS academies are getting educated at their school of choice and "working" at the training academies after school...they also know by the age of 18 if they're going to be playing professionally or if they need to take advantage of other opportunities. For every one Andrew Carleton (17 year old Atlanta wunderkind), there are 5 kids who are told they're going to need to pursue other ventures...and the good thing is those kids can still move on to University because of the exposure they're getting. Most of the Euro clubs actually have what they call formations academies that are full-service educational entities through to their equivalent of 12th grade here with additional life skills training. The good thing is that both the players and the teams know the situation and are very up front about it all. It's the outside pay-to-play "Premier" clubs, not the academies, that give people delusions of grandeur.

You see, the biggest issue in the US is that development is put on entities that are not trained to provide it, or who cost far more than they give in return. The advent of the MLS youth academies has spurned a huge influx of young talent (just look at the performance of the U20 and U17 national teams), but we're trying to work out of a hole that profitization of the sport and reliance on college as a form of development has put us in. Literally none of the European academies cost what our clubs do in the US...and that's beginning to change with the MLS academies, but we're still working from a position of weakness. What the USSF need to do is develop a better way to grant higher level developmental access to all parties, rather than making people pay an arm and a leg for it (the ODP/USSF program is completely broken and an insane outlier on the global stage).

To be fair, the Academy system is in no way different from the way basketball is done now. You have quite a few players every year going to schools dedicated to basketball because they've been identified as athletes with promise. Hell, look at what IMG Academy is doing for football, I don't think there is a single person paying for that school whether through grants or sponsorship, and every player on their football team has college scholarship offers.

Are the US academies more expensive because the teams aren't making money on the top end? I can't imagine any US soccer teams are pulling nearly the revenue of their European counterparts? Sorry for badgering. I literally know nothing about how all this works. I assumed the kids that played for the US national team were just really good high school players that got noticed or played in something similar to the "juniors" system in hockey.

Everything that I've seen points to the cost of the MLS academies (not funded by USSF in any way) being negligible in comparison to the premier clubs and developmental leagues that most kids are playing under...mainly because they are being supplemented by the increased revenue of every club. They're not as inexpensive as the Euro clubs, and never will be simply because those revenue numbers are unattainable without a cataclysmic shift in American sporting culture (which I personally wouldn't want anyways, because I like our sporting diversity), but they are much less expensive than the clubs that most people play for.
 
(This post was last modified: 10-11-2017 09:49 AM by BearcatMan.)
10-11-2017 09:47 AM
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Lush Offline
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Post: #16
RE: USMNT
i don't really have a c*ck in this fight, but it's pretty evident why soccer isn't as popular here. we call it soccer. the beautiful game's embrace is treasured with our lackadaisical warmth.

we already got a football, it might not make sense like futbol which i assume means play with a foot. it's a faux paux. we call it soccer. our athletes play football. they will even play hockey over you, for some reason our wallets demand it. but most of all it's because we're f*cking american and f*ck you sissy f*ggots. go flop on a d!ck


does rugby have a world cup? how good's america in that?
 
10-11-2017 10:10 AM
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Banter Offline
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Post: #17
RE: USMNT
(10-11-2017 10:10 AM)Lush Wrote:  i don't really have a c*ck in this fight, but it's pretty evident why soccer isn't as popular here. we call it soccer. the beautiful game's embrace is treasured with our lackadaisical warmth.

we already got a football, it might not make sense like futbol which i assume means play with a foot. it's a faux paux. we call it soccer. our athletes play football. they will even play hockey over you, for some reason our wallets demand it. but most of all it's because we're f*cking american and f*ck you sissy f*ggots. go flop on a d!ck


does rugby have a world cup? how good's america in that?

While your opinions on Soccer are terrible...The US made its first appearance in the Rugby World Cup in 1987. They have qualified for every world cup except for 1995. The US Rugby team has a record of 3-22 overall in their 7 World Cup appearances.
 
10-11-2017 11:10 AM
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Lush Offline
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Post: #18
RE: USMNT
just to be clear, those aren't my opinions. i like soccer, not an enthusiast, but i enjoy watching it. i've been ever so taken by rugby
 
10-11-2017 12:48 PM
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rath v2.0 Offline
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Post: #19
RE: USMNT
Based on the title of the thread I thought this was going to be about the WWI Centennial Silver Dollar or something.
 
10-11-2017 01:17 PM
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Recluse1 Offline
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Post: #20
RE: USMNT
Oh... soccer... right. Thought it might be something that mattered. Carry on.
 
10-11-2017 04:53 PM
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