(11-15-2017 09:48 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Nah, Liberty will buy it's way into C-USA

So are you buying the idea that C-USA will split East-West when one side qualifies for conference status on their own or will they go beyond 14?

(11-15-2017 09:56 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(11-15-2017 09:48 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Nah, Liberty will buy it's way into C-USA

So are you buying the idea that C-USA will split East-West when one side qualifies for conference status on their own or will they go beyond 14?

That is not a thing anymore.

(11-15-2017 09:20 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  My guess is either the Big South is planning on booting Liberty, who the A-Sun in turn would pick up or Presbyterian is leaving D1.

That is what I'm thinking too. Not exactly an official trade but taking a school that will be committed to your conference long term while losing a school dying to get out.
Since the A Sun needs warm bodies, Liberty is virtually guarantees a home should the big south force them out or ask them to leave.
It just seems very odd for the big south to add an 11th basketball member and that be the only action

Liberty is remaining in the Big South as an associate member for all of their olympic sports for the time being. The BSC has already voted on this and announced it a month or two ago. Liberty has publicly stated several times that they'll remain in the Big South, until a better option becomes available- most likely in the coming 2024 reshuffle. IMO, this is all by design by both Liberty and the BSC.

Maybe this is in the neighborhood of crazy talk but perhaps the A-Sun thinks that they can grab Liberty, elevate the Kennesaw St football program to FBS, and become the football home for anyone willing to take a leap to FBS.

(11-15-2017 09:33 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(11-15-2017 06:16 PM)NoDak Wrote:  Expect Jacksonville St and E Kentucky to move to the Atlantic Sun after the FCS season. JMU, Delaware, Stony Brook, and Albany are possible too. Liberty is a given. We could be seeing the birth of a new FBS league as I foretold in previous threads.

Nobody moves from a semi-respectable I-AA/I-AAA one-bid league to a flophouse for Division 2 callups. So, maybe Liberty is cast out and has to shelter its non-football programs in the cold, dark wasteland of the A-Suck. But no school with any other D-I options is going there.

Oh, and I'd just like to remind you that Jacksonville State, EKU, SMU, Stony Brook, Delaware and Albany aren't FBS programs and aren't going to be in the next 10 years.

The board got my Liberty moving to FBS thread moved to a smack forum because it was so implausible to folks here. History repeats itself.

Florida has had a lot of developers move in, destroy the old Motel 6 or worse flophouse, and build something upscale. Same will happen with the A Sun.

They are going to 11 because that allows them to go to 20 conference games in basketball like the major conferences will do. That simple.

(11-15-2017 10:13 PM)NoDak Wrote:  The board got my Liberty moving to FBS thread moved to a smack forum because it was so implausible to folks here. History repeats itself.

I think the presence of DavidSt indicates the board is quite hospitable to the implausible. I haven't googled to check, but I'm going to guess that thread went to the Smack Board because of "godless heathen commie pre-verts" and "Bible-humping inbred troglodyte rednecks" calling each other names. (Possibly not those names, but the general idea)

(11-16-2017 11:23 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(11-15-2017 10:13 PM)NoDak Wrote:  The board got my Liberty moving to FBS thread moved to a smack forum because it was so implausible to folks here. History repeats itself.

I think the presence of DavidSt indicates the board is quite hospitable to the implausible. I haven't googled to check, but I'm going to guess that thread went to the Smack Board because of "godless heathen commie pre-verts" and "Bible-humping inbred troglodyte rednecks" calling each other names. (Possibly not those names, but the general idea)

What this board is not welcoming to is FBS move ups that are grounded in economic reason. Its too threatening to many posters, but not the P5 ones, who really dont give a flip. An FBS move up requires much upfront capital improvement, but the net annual cost is not much higher (and even lower with proper scheduling). Boosters are willing and sometimes eager to donate for facilities, but won't donate as much for operational funds. That is often taken care of naturally through more community and national awareness with higher attendance and booster club membership.

Just go to top of the Verbal Assault board, where I included a report that Liberty was moving to FBS. One poster from NDSU, who I have had many tussles with in the past, lambasted me and that report. Too many posters here, including you, follow in his footsteps.

(11-16-2017 01:39 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(11-16-2017 11:23 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(11-15-2017 10:13 PM)NoDak Wrote:  The board got my Liberty moving to FBS thread moved to a smack forum because it was so implausible to folks here. History repeats itself.

I think the presence of DavidSt indicates the board is quite hospitable to the implausible. I haven't googled to check, but I'm going to guess that thread went to the Smack Board because of "godless heathen commie pre-verts" and "Bible-humping inbred troglodyte rednecks" calling each other names. (Possibly not those names, but the general idea)

What this board is not welcoming to is FBS move ups that are grounded in economic reason.

It's not the board that is not welcoming, it's the NCAA rules that are not welcoming. It's the NCAA Powers That Be that are not welcoming, that passed the rule against I-A Independents moving up in the first place, that put in the moratorium against FCS-FBS transitions and Division I transitions from 2007-2011.

But you really really want your school to be FBS, so you wave away all the procedural roadblocks that the schools and conferences that run the NCAA have placed in the way of that happening. And that just because one exception was made to the rule, that the rule is a dead letter and anybody can be FBS because they can meet the minimum criteria. It doesn't work like that--it is not a meritocracy.

(11-16-2017 03:25 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(11-16-2017 01:39 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(11-16-2017 11:23 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(11-15-2017 10:13 PM)NoDak Wrote:  The board got my Liberty moving to FBS thread moved to a smack forum because it was so implausible to folks here. History repeats itself.

I think the presence of DavidSt indicates the board is quite hospitable to the implausible. I haven't googled to check, but I'm going to guess that thread went to the Smack Board because of "godless heathen commie pre-verts" and "Bible-humping inbred troglodyte rednecks" calling each other names. (Possibly not those names, but the general idea)

What this board is not welcoming to is FBS move ups that are grounded in economic reason.

It's not the board that is not welcoming, it's the NCAA rules that are not welcoming. It's the NCAA Powers That Be that are not welcoming, that passed the rule against I-A Independents moving up in the first place, that put in the moratorium against FCS-FBS transitions and Division I transitions from 2007-2011.

But you really really want your school to be FBS, so you wave away all the procedural roadblocks that the schools and conferences that run the NCAA have placed in the way of that happening. And that just because one exception was made to the rule, that the rule is a dead letter and anybody can be FBS because they can meet the minimum criteria. It doesn't work like that--it is not a meritocracy.

When they put all those rules in from all these years was before the lawsuits against the NCAA, lawsuits against the schools, the CTE issues, FCOAs and so forth. Now, what it needs is that they have to revisit all these rules and think of what to do.

(11-16-2017 03:43 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  When they put all those rules in from all these years was before the lawsuits against the NCAA, lawsuits against the schools, the CTE issues, FCOAs and so forth. Now, what it needs is that they have to revisit all these rules and think of what to do.

Um, how does expanding FBS from about 130 to 160 or so (or whatever your total number of FBS candidates is) help any of those things?

And please don't say "travel costs" and "the new FBS programs would bring fans to road games." Because those are trivial.

(11-16-2017 03:46 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(11-16-2017 03:43 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  When they put all those rules in from all these years was before the lawsuits against the NCAA, lawsuits against the schools, the CTE issues, FCOAs and so forth. Now, what it needs is that they have to revisit all these rules and think of what to do.

Um, how does expanding FBS from about 130 to 160 or so (or whatever your total number of FBS candidates is) help any of those things?

And please don't say "travel costs" and "the new FBS programs would bring fans to road games." Because those are trivial.

I am talking about that the costs issues because all schools will face the same issues. It does not matter what level they are on. D2 schools are flirting with the idea of FCOAs as well, plus they face the same issues with CTEs, rape done by star athletes and so forth. It could give schools like the PAC 12, UTEP, MWC and Big 12 more schools to count towards playing FBS where they can concentrate on the lawsuits, CTE issues, FCOAs and so forth. It seems they allowed Liberty to join as an Independent. They just need to do away with that rule if they could not enforced it against Liberty.

(11-16-2017 04:22 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(11-16-2017 03:46 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(11-16-2017 03:43 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  When they put all those rules in from all these years was before the lawsuits against the NCAA, lawsuits against the schools, the CTE issues, FCOAs and so forth. Now, what it needs is that they have to revisit all these rules and think of what to do.

Um, how does expanding FBS from about 130 to 160 or so (or whatever your total number of FBS candidates is) help any of those things?

And please don't say "travel costs" and "the new FBS programs would bring fans to road games." Because those are trivial.

I am talking about that the costs issues because all schools will face the same issues. It does not matter what level they are on. D2 schools are flirting with the idea of FCOAs as well, plus they face the same issues with CTEs, rape done by star athletes and so forth. It could give schools like the PAC 12, UTEP, MWC and Big 12 more schools to count towards playing FBS where they can concentrate on the lawsuits, CTE issues, FCOAs and so forth.

You're just waving your hands around, rather than giving any particular way that having 150 or 200 FBS schools instead of 130 helps any of those issues--cost of FCOAs, CTE liability, criminal athletes.

How would elevating a Great Northern Conference or an Eastern STates Conference to FBS help Purdue or Mississippi State or UTSA or Oregon State or Miami or Colorado STate or Houston deal with CTE liability? Or with paying FCOA? Or with athletes raping girls? How does North Dakota or Idaho or Stony Brook or Youngstown STate being FBS rather than FCS help in any way?

Quote: It seems they allowed Liberty to join as an Independent. They just need to do away with that rule if they could not enforced it against Liberty.

They weren't sure they could enforce it against Liberty because Liberty was already running with an FBS level budget, and Liberty had plenty of documentation (news clippings) suggesting that they were being kept out of FBS for religious reasons--the Sun Belt and CUSA schools didn't want to associate with a fundamentalist Christian JErry Falwell university. If it had gone to court, that would have given Liberty a good chance.

Nobody else has that same chance of embarrassing the NCAA in court.

(11-16-2017 06:08 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(11-16-2017 04:22 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(11-16-2017 03:46 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(11-16-2017 03:43 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  When they put all those rules in from all these years was before the lawsuits against the NCAA, lawsuits against the schools, the CTE issues, FCOAs and so forth. Now, what it needs is that they have to revisit all these rules and think of what to do.

Um, how does expanding FBS from about 130 to 160 or so (or whatever your total number of FBS candidates is) help any of those things?

And please don't say "travel costs" and "the new FBS programs would bring fans to road games." Because those are trivial.

I am talking about that the costs issues because all schools will face the same issues. It does not matter what level they are on. D2 schools are flirting with the idea of FCOAs as well, plus they face the same issues with CTEs, rape done by star athletes and so forth. It could give schools like the PAC 12, UTEP, MWC and Big 12 more schools to count towards playing FBS where they can concentrate on the lawsuits, CTE issues, FCOAs and so forth.

You're just waving your hands around, rather than giving any particular way that having 150 or 200 FBS schools instead of 130 helps any of those issues--cost of FCOAs, CTE liability, criminal athletes.

How would elevating a Great Northern Conference or an Eastern STates Conference to FBS help Purdue or Mississippi State or UTSA or Oregon State or Miami or Colorado STate or Houston deal with CTE liability? Or with paying FCOA? Or with athletes raping girls? How does North Dakota or Idaho or Stony Brook or Youngstown STate being FBS rather than FCS help in any way?

Quote: It seems they allowed Liberty to join as an Independent. They just need to do away with that rule if they could not enforced it against Liberty.

They weren't sure they could enforce it against Liberty because Liberty was already running with an FBS level budget, and Liberty had plenty of documentation (news clippings) suggesting that they were being kept out of FBS for religious reasons--the Sun Belt and CUSA schools didn't want to associate with a fundamentalist Christian JErry Falwell university. If it had gone to court, that would have given Liberty a good chance.

Nobody else has that same chance of embarrassing the NCAA in court.

True. Liberty was one of those exceptional cases, unlike any other school. One cannot compare LU's road to FBS to anyone else's as it was uniquely theirs. It's obvious that C-USA, SBC, MAC and any other conference wanted LU. But LU had the budget, facilities, attendance meeting and exceed many existing FBS schools. LU only got the exception because the NCAA was going to lose litigation if challenged.

The pipe dream talk of how other schools can easily become FBS is that, a pipe dream. When App St, the GA's, Charlotte, ODU made their move, opportunity was there. LU was available then, but no one wanted them. Today, there is no opportunity. It seems like pie-in-the-sky dreaming until another opportunity exists such as a P5 shift or a G5 implosion or P5 raid. In business, we used to say great deals were often created at other's misfortunes. Just ask JMU how easy it is to become FBS.

Schools like Wyoming needs schools like Montana and Montana State up at the FBS level.

As for the schools? Baylor, Florida State and many other schools are paying a lot of money to victims of rape from their football players and all that. Florida State did a settlement with the accuser of rape by Winston. That shows you Florida State did hid something with him just so that they can win a championship.

As it is, CTE is being studied by a coalition of schools from D1, D2, D3 and NAIA. Having more schools up in FBS and in FCS plus with other sports that have to do with CTE could help bring in more data and test cases. It is an agreement.

Another is that more schools up in D1 and in FBS could help expand the sports like adding a LAX league on the west coast, and other sports.

You can get more lawsuits from FCS schools as a group who wants FBS could take the NCAA to court for access. NCAA and FBS wants to avoid any more lawsuits. Even D2 schools who could team up and take NCAA D1 to court about not letting them in. As it is, schools at d2 level got caught doing FCOAs type deals with their athletes. Arkansas Tech got caught doing it in their best sports. If D2 schools wants to spend money for that? Let me join D1.

(11-16-2017 08:13 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Schools like Wyoming needs schools like Montana and Montana State up at the FBS level.

Why?

Quote:As for the schools? Baylor, Florida State and many other schools are paying a lot of money to victims of rape from their football players and all that. Florida State did a settlement with the accuser of rape by Winston. That shows you Florida State did hid something with him just so that they can win a championship.

So, what, if Lamar and Florida-Gulf Coast get to be FBS Baylor and Florida State are off the hook? That makes no sense, but what else could you mean here?

Quote:As it is, CTE is being studied by a coalition of schools from D1, D2, D3 and NAIA. Having more schools up in FBS and in FCS plus with other sports that have to do with CTE could help bring in more data and test cases. It is an agreement.

.....ok. More schools in FBS means you spread the cost of CTE research around, and you have more specimens to work with. That almost makes sense. Except for the fact that the non-FBS schools that play football are already doing that--you said "a coalition of schools from D1, D2, D3 and NAIA." So what is moving 10-20-50 schools from FCS or Division II to FBS going to do?

Quote:Another is that more schools up in D1 and in FBS could help expand the sports like adding a LAX league on the west coast, and other sports.

? You don't need to be FBS to play lacrosse. If NoDak's Summit LEague friends want to play lacrosse, they can do that.

Quote:You can get more lawsuits from FCS schools as a group who wants FBS could take the NCAA to court for access. NCAA and FBS wants to avoid any more lawsuits. Even D2 schools who could team up and take NCAA D1 to court about not letting them in.

I don't see those lawsuits going anywhere. Pro sports leagues don't have to worry about wannabes suing their way in. Liberty only had a possible claim because they could claim religious discrimination on the one hand, and on the other there's no question that they have FBS level resources.

Quote:As it is, schools at d2 level got caught doing FCOAs type deals with their athletes. Arkansas Tech got caught doing it in their best sports. If D2 schools wants to spend money for that? Let me join D1.

That's....really not anyone else's problem.

All of this seems to fit together nicely for the Big South. Hampton joining for football is a great add - an ambitious program in a big city looking for a means to raise its profile - and USC Upstate was on an island in the A-Sun for several years after Campbell (2011) and ETSU (2014) left. They're not as ambitious but offer programs that should be competitive in that conference, especially in the spring. Not sure of the value of going to 12 for all sports, but getting to 8 for football within the next two years (assuming Presbyterian stays in) would be huge for the conference since they can all stop scheduling 3-4 Patriot and Pioneer League schools a year to get home games.

The question of course can then be raised, as it always is in the wake of expansion - is more movement coming for the Big South? How aggressive with the BSC be in going after further additions? Would a D2 power like Valdosta State interest them, or would they poach more schools from the MEAC? NC Central and NC A&T are both right in their footprint. Howard is a bit of a stretch, but not impossible.

Furthermore, what does the A-Sun do now that it's down to 8 schools? I could see them staying pat knowing full well they could be doomed if they do, because I've never been convinced their leadership is on the ball as far as being aggressive in expansion/realignment.

I don't know how much that the Big South has left. I mean they're up to 12 in all sports and will have 8 I guess in football losing Liberty but picking up Campbell, Hampton, and North Alabama. So tough to see any additions being all sports now, and realistically maybe 1 more football only add(maybe a Valdosta St moves up- joins A-Sun for all sports and then Big South for football only.).

Valdosta State is not moving up. As much as I would like them to because there'd be another local D1 team to see, it's not happening. My neighbor is the athletic director's brother, so I am quite connected to these things. They had discussions a couple years ago but decided that it was just far too expensive. If something ever changes, I'll let you know.

Fwiw, I go to 1-2 of their football games each year, and despite having a good team I can tell you that they only draw about 1,000 fans even to big games. High school football in South Georgia rulls the roost.