Seems to me they could just decide that football is unique in intercollegiate sports, and pull completely out instead of keeping their toe in the water. Would that solve problems for P5 member schools, or make them worse?

If the P5 could form its own governing body for football only, but remain in the NCAA for other sports, they wouldn't have to be concerned that football changes would diminish the value of the NCAA basketball tournament.

I could see the NCAA staff being happy that they no longer have to police a sport with 92,000 participants nationwide. If they only had to put their main compliance focus on men's basketball, they might find that much more manageable and cost effective.

How might that change college football?

Would we like the result?

(12-06-2017 10:43 AM)ken d Wrote:  Seems to me they could just decide that football is unique in intercollegiate sports, and pull completely out instead of keeping their toe in the water. Would that solve problems for P5 member schools, or make them worse?

If the P5 could form its own governing body for football only, but remain in the NCAA for other sports, they wouldn't have to be concerned that football changes would diminish the value of the NCAA basketball tournament.

I could see the NCAA staff being happy that they no longer have to police a sport with 92,000 participants nationwide. If they only had to put their main compliance focus on men's basketball, they might find that much more manageable and cost effective.

How might that change college football?

Would we like the result?

It would open the door for basketball to leave as well and that is why the NCAA won't go there.

I can see the day coming where money making sports are independent in governance than non revenue sports. Tax purposes may be the motive.

If/when that happens I think the NCAA is dead without AOC and or IOC support.

(12-06-2017 10:55 AM)JRsec Wrote:  It would open the door for basketball to leave as well and that is why the NCAA won't go there.

I can see the day coming where money making sports are independent in governance than non revenue sports. Tax purposes may be the motive.

As I've suggested before, the post-NCAA solution could be to have each collegiate sport administered by the national governing body for that sport. US Soccer for college soccer, USA Volleyball for college volleyball, USA Track & Field for college track and field, etc., etc.

Football and basketball could be divided up based on whether those sports actually generate revenue for a school. The revenue-producing football and basketball programs could set up their own administration and "division" for competition, including paying the athletes, given that they are generating revenue for the school. Schools that don't generate real revenue from football and basketball could compete in a "division" administered by the national governing body for each sport, just as for their other non-revenue sports.

(12-06-2017 11:23 AM)Wedge Wrote:  

(12-06-2017 10:55 AM)JRsec Wrote:  It would open the door for basketball to leave as well and that is why the NCAA won't go there.

I can see the day coming where money making sports are independent in governance than non revenue sports. Tax purposes may be the motive.

As I've suggested before, the post-NCAA solution could be to have each collegiate sport administered by the national governing body for that sport. US Soccer for college soccer, USA Volleyball for college volleyball, USA Track & Field for college track and field, etc., etc.

Football and basketball could be divided up based on whether those sports actually generate revenue for a school. The revenue-producing football and basketball programs could set up their own administration and "division" for competition, including paying the athletes, given that they are generating revenue for the school. Schools that don't generate real revenue from football and basketball could compete in a "division" administered by the national governing body for each sport, just as for their other non-revenue sports.

That works for me. But, I really see the tax status as being the catalyst for change. I don't think the NCAA dares to drop football from their purview until forced to do so. Football is too central to the identity of the NCAA for them to walk on it.

(12-06-2017 11:23 AM)Wedge Wrote:  

(12-06-2017 10:55 AM)JRsec Wrote:  It would open the door for basketball to leave as well and that is why the NCAA won't go there.

I can see the day coming where money making sports are independent in governance than non revenue sports. Tax purposes may be the motive.

As I've suggested before, the post-NCAA solution could be to have each collegiate sport administered by the national governing body for that sport. US Soccer for college soccer, USA Volleyball for college volleyball, USA Track & Field for college track and field, etc., etc.

Football and basketball could be divided up based on whether those sports actually generate revenue for a school. The revenue-producing football and basketball programs could set up their own administration and "division" for competition, including paying the athletes, given that they are generating revenue for the school. Schools that don't generate real revenue from football and basketball could compete in a "division" administered by the national governing body for each sport, just as for their other non-revenue sports.

Without the money generated by the NCAAT, how can organizations like USA Volleyball afford to administer intercollegiate volleyball? Wouldn't those sports just wither and die at the collegiate level?

If USA Basketball were to take over the NCAAT, why would they share the loot with volleyball, soccer, softball, etc.?

(12-06-2017 10:55 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(12-06-2017 10:43 AM)ken d Wrote:  Seems to me they could just decide that football is unique in intercollegiate sports, and pull completely out instead of keeping their toe in the water. Would that solve problems for P5 member schools, or make them worse?

If the P5 could form its own governing body for football only, but remain in the NCAA for other sports, they wouldn't have to be concerned that football changes would diminish the value of the NCAA basketball tournament.

I could see the NCAA staff being happy that they no longer have to police a sport with 92,000 participants nationwide. If they only had to put their main compliance focus on men's basketball, they might find that much more manageable and cost effective.

How might that change college football?

Would we like the result?

It would open the door for basketball to leave as well and that is why the NCAA won't go there.

I can see the day coming where money making sports are independent in governance than non revenue sports. Tax purposes may be the motive.

If/when that happens I think the NCAA is dead without AOC and or IOC support.

Would that be the case if the P5 schools don't want the NCAA to cease to exist entirely? If they insisted that the NCAAT remain intact as a funding source for all sports except football?

(12-06-2017 11:38 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(12-06-2017 10:55 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(12-06-2017 10:43 AM)ken d Wrote:  Seems to me they could just decide that football is unique in intercollegiate sports, and pull completely out instead of keeping their toe in the water. Would that solve problems for P5 member schools, or make them worse?

If the P5 could form its own governing body for football only, but remain in the NCAA for other sports, they wouldn't have to be concerned that football changes would diminish the value of the NCAA basketball tournament.

I could see the NCAA staff being happy that they no longer have to police a sport with 92,000 participants nationwide. If they only had to put their main compliance focus on men's basketball, they might find that much more manageable and cost effective.

How might that change college football?

Would we like the result?

It would open the door for basketball to leave as well and that is why the NCAA won't go there.

I can see the day coming where money making sports are independent in governance than non revenue sports. Tax purposes may be the motive.

If/when that happens I think the NCAA is dead without AOC and or IOC support.

Would that be the case if the P5 schools don't want the NCAA to cease to exist entirely? If they insisted that the NCAAT remain intact as a funding source for all sports except football?

Yes. The P5 schools all know they could monetize basketball much more efficiently without the sticky hands of the NCAA. So dropping football gives the AD's the excuse they need to form their own monitoring and organizational structure for football and once that is done who needs the NCAA for any revenue sport?

(12-06-2017 11:35 AM)ken d Wrote:  Without the money generated by the NCAAT, how can organizations like USA Volleyball afford to administer intercollegiate volleyball?

Each school that sponsors volleyball, for example, would pay annual dues to USA Volleyball such that the collective pool of dues covers USA Volleyball's costs for administering college volleyball, staging national championship tournaments, etc. Wouldn't be a large amount of money for each school, given the relatively large number of participating schools.

This is the way the NCAA should be run, anyway. Schools should "pay as you go", i.e., cover the administrative costs of each sport they sponsor. That would be better than the current system of relying on the NCAA to drain off much of the March Madness money, use part of it to administer non-revenue sports, and put the rest in NCAA bank accounts.

(12-06-2017 11:41 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(12-06-2017 11:38 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(12-06-2017 10:55 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(12-06-2017 10:43 AM)ken d Wrote:  Seems to me they could just decide that football is unique in intercollegiate sports, and pull completely out instead of keeping their toe in the water. Would that solve problems for P5 member schools, or make them worse?

If the P5 could form its own governing body for football only, but remain in the NCAA for other sports, they wouldn't have to be concerned that football changes would diminish the value of the NCAA basketball tournament.

I could see the NCAA staff being happy that they no longer have to police a sport with 92,000 participants nationwide. If they only had to put their main compliance focus on men's basketball, they might find that much more manageable and cost effective.

How might that change college football?

Would we like the result?

It would open the door for basketball to leave as well and that is why the NCAA won't go there.

I can see the day coming where money making sports are independent in governance than non revenue sports. Tax purposes may be the motive.

If/when that happens I think the NCAA is dead without AOC and or IOC support.

Would that be the case if the P5 schools don't want the NCAA to cease to exist entirely? If they insisted that the NCAAT remain intact as a funding source for all sports except football?

Yes. The P5 schools all know they could monetize basketball much more efficiently without the sticky hands of the NCAA. So dropping football gives the AD's the excuse they need to form their own monitoring and organizational structure for football and once that is done who needs the NCAA for any revenue sport?

Your answer supposes that my "what if" would never happen. That is, you are saying the P5 schools want the NCAA to disappear. When I hear that, my mind tends to go to "be careful what you wish for".

Flawed as it may be, the NCAA may be the only fig leaf standing between the government and the concept of amateur sports at the collegiate level. That could open a huge can of worms that P5 schools would prefer stay closed.

(12-06-2017 12:02 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(12-06-2017 11:41 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(12-06-2017 11:38 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(12-06-2017 10:55 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(12-06-2017 10:43 AM)ken d Wrote:  Seems to me they could just decide that football is unique in intercollegiate sports, and pull completely out instead of keeping their toe in the water. Would that solve problems for P5 member schools, or make them worse?

If the P5 could form its own governing body for football only, but remain in the NCAA for other sports, they wouldn't have to be concerned that football changes would diminish the value of the NCAA basketball tournament.

I could see the NCAA staff being happy that they no longer have to police a sport with 92,000 participants nationwide. If they only had to put their main compliance focus on men's basketball, they might find that much more manageable and cost effective.

How might that change college football?

Would we like the result?

It would open the door for basketball to leave as well and that is why the NCAA won't go there.

I can see the day coming where money making sports are independent in governance than non revenue sports. Tax purposes may be the motive.

If/when that happens I think the NCAA is dead without AOC and or IOC support.

Would that be the case if the P5 schools don't want the NCAA to cease to exist entirely? If they insisted that the NCAAT remain intact as a funding source for all sports except football?

Yes. The P5 schools all know they could monetize basketball much more efficiently without the sticky hands of the NCAA. So dropping football gives the AD's the excuse they need to form their own monitoring and organizational structure for football and once that is done who needs the NCAA for any revenue sport?

Your answer supposes that my "what if" would never happen. That is, you are saying the P5 schools want the NCAA to disappear. When I hear that, my mind tends to go to "be careful what you wish for".

Flawed as it may be, the NCAA may be the only fig leaf standing between the government and the concept of amateur sports at the collegiate level. That could open a huge can of worms that P5 schools would prefer stay closed.

No. I'm considering that Fig Leaf to be in the Fall of its existence given the current fiscal oversight and the problems with amateurism. The FBI probe into the apparel industry / athletes is only the first shot of a coming war the outcome of which will lead to the taxation of revenue sports on college campuses.

It's not a matter of what I fish for, but rather a matter of watching the horizon for the coming storm. So if the NCAA drops football and the schools are required to set up a separate governance structure for football, then placing men's basketball under its auspices is just practical. Besides when the government deems it taxable it will have to have its own structure anyway and so too will all revenue sports.

I submit that after that time each university's A.D. will be a taxable entity of the school and will only administrate the for profit programs and that all non revenue sports will fall under the purview of the Academic wing of the school where donations will still be tax deductible.

The government get its tax money and the A.D. no longer has to count revenue sports against Title IX compliance. Instead the Academic wing of the school will have to fund non profits and those sports will be subject to Title IX compliance.

When that happens then what Wedge suggests about each sport having its own governing body could well come to pass, but what I strongly suspect is that outside of traditional Olympic sports which might be funded in part by the AOC, that the total number of sports at each school will shrink dramatically.

Related comment, in this article about recent dumb comments by the NCAA president:

https://deadspin.com/mark-emmert-has-a-b...1821050931

Quote:Here’s the truth: College sports are two different beasts entirely. There are the non-revenue sports, which feature the vast, vast majority of athletes and administrators. And then there are the revenue sports, which operate entirely differently, which pay for the whole thing, which pay a lot of really wealthy people’s salaries, and which lead universities to forsake their educational missions altogether. These two things should not be under the same umbrella; the NCAA can not capably and ethically handle both.

But what is the alternative? It feels like most people—especially those who have it pretty good right now—would rather wring their hands and live with a broken system than do the work of changing it.

I can see a lot of schools dropping a lot of sports if they have to deal with multiple organizations. With a few exceptions, all sports now have the same non-competition rules. It would be a nightmare to administer 20+ sports with a dozen different governing bodies, some with different rules for men and women. Currently, if a player plays football and another sport he has to be counted as one of the football scholarship limits. Schools will start a "bowling team" and give athletes a scholarship. They would still be under the limit and the 30 guys on the bowling team are "walk-ons." If schools want an athlete bad enough they might offer multiple scholarships.

The biggest mistake the NCAA members made was using the football contract money to subsidize the costs of operations which was replaced by the basketball tournament as the sport exploded just before the tv deal was struck down.
That subsidy caused an influx of schools from NAIA and contributed to the gold rush of about 100 schools moving to Division I.


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Multiple governing bodies is better in many ways. Compliance would be much more expensive but would be great in other ways.
If Cal and AState want to make rugby a varsity sport it is much easier if there is no NCAA. Same goes for rodeo which has quite a few teams but you can’t count it toward your 14 or 16 for Division I or FBS.
Not every sport should be regulated the same way. Skiing doesn’t need the same eligibility rules as football. Look at soccer. A player can play in the summer on an amateur team against pros but can’t be on the same team as the pros. Now those pros generally aren’t making minimum wage when you add it all up and likely making less than a soccer player on a full ride scholarship at a school paying full cost of attendance but being on the same team isn’t permitted.
The one size fits all academic requirements are a mess. In the NAIA if you meet the school’s unconditional admissions requirements you are eligible. In the NCAA the minimum admission requirements are lower than the admission requirements of nearly every FBS.
Having flexibility by sport is a good thing.
Let’s say USA Football took over football. Even without an NCAA you could adopt similar requirements for the top division requiring minimum attendance, minimum scheduling and sponsorship of 15 other sports and awarding 200 scholarships.
If Georgetown and the Pioneer League want to play non-scholarship football let them affiliate in football with like-minded schools.
But schools aren’t going to want to deal with 14-20+ organizations


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(12-06-2017 11:23 AM)Wedge Wrote:  

(12-06-2017 10:55 AM)JRsec Wrote:  It would open the door for basketball to leave as well and that is why the NCAA won't go there.

I can see the day coming where money making sports are independent in governance than non revenue sports. Tax purposes may be the motive.

As I've suggested before, the post-NCAA solution could be to have each collegiate sport administered by the national governing body for that sport. US Soccer for college soccer, USA Volleyball for college volleyball, USA Track & Field for college track and field, etc., etc.

Football and basketball could be divided up based on whether those sports actually generate revenue for a school. The revenue-producing football and basketball programs could set up their own administration and "division" for competition, including paying the athletes, given that they are generating revenue for the school. Schools that don't generate real revenue from football and basketball could compete in a "division" administered by the national governing body for each sport, just as for their other non-revenue sports.

I like this idea....so much common sense here...which means it has zero chance of happening.

When it comes to taxation, that's where things get sticky.

It will depend on what the rates are and what exemptions and incentives might exist. Whether the AD will get taxed directly or if it will simply be a matter of athletic donations no longer being tax deductible for individuals. There's a lot of room for creativity on the part of Congress in other words...as with any issue they take up.

I think what you might see is some sort of system where anything spent on non-revenue sports or Title IX compliant sports could be deducted from tax liability. That way, the Feds will still get some cash out of the ADs, but they won't really upend the current system either. There could be some backlash from a variety of spheres if a system that punishes expenditures on non-revenue sports ends up causing schools to dump those sports.

(12-07-2017 03:51 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  When it comes to taxation, that's where things get sticky.

It will depend on what the rates are and what exemptions and incentives might exist. Whether the AD will get taxed directly or if it will simply be a matter of athletic donations no longer being tax deductible for individuals. There's a lot of room for creativity on the part of Congress in other words...as with any issue they take up.

I think what you might see is some sort of system where anything spent on non-revenue sports or Title IX compliant sports could be deducted from tax liability. That way, the Feds will still get some cash out of the ADs, but they won't really upend the current system either. There could be some backlash from a variety of spheres if a system that punishes expenditures on non-revenue sports ends up causing schools to dump those sports.

My understanding is the current tax bill eliminates the deductibility of donations to intercollegiate athletic departments.

(12-06-2017 04:02 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  I can see a lot of schools dropping a lot of sports if they have to deal with multiple organizations. With a few exceptions, all sports now have the same non-competition rules. It would be a nightmare to administer 20+ sports with a dozen different governing bodies, some with different rules for men and women. Currently, if a player plays football and another sport he has to be counted as one of the football scholarship limits. Schools will start a "bowling team" and give athletes a scholarship. They would still be under the limit and the 30 guys on the bowling team are "walk-ons." If schools want an athlete bad enough they might offer multiple scholarships.

That is the reason for my initial premise. Football is unique, and massive. If you take that out of the NCAA's purview, you greatly simplify its mission. And that mission, if further divided sport by sport, would create administrative nightmares for schools.

And it isn't at all clear to me that groups like USA Volleyball would have much interest in policing collegiate volleyball. The only way I see them taking that on is if the schools pay them enough to subsidize the national teams they really care about. That financial burden would, IMO, lead to a dramatic reduction in the number of sports sponsored by colleges and universities. If the NCAA schools wanted that outcome, they could just change their own rules about how many sports their teams must sponsor in order to be members.

The 800 pound gorilla is football. And unlike most collegiate sports, it is purely American in its scope. There is no international craving for it. It deserves to be treated differently than Olympic sports (including basketball).

(12-08-2017 09:14 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(12-06-2017 04:02 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  I can see a lot of schools dropping a lot of sports if they have to deal with multiple organizations. With a few exceptions, all sports now have the same non-competition rules. It would be a nightmare to administer 20+ sports with a dozen different governing bodies, some with different rules for men and women. Currently, if a player plays football and another sport he has to be counted as one of the football scholarship limits. Schools will start a "bowling team" and give athletes a scholarship. They would still be under the limit and the 30 guys on the bowling team are "walk-ons." If schools want an athlete bad enough they might offer multiple scholarships.

That is the reason for my initial premise. Football is unique, and massive. If you take that out of the NCAA's purview, you greatly simplify its mission. And that mission, if further divided sport by sport, would create administrative nightmares for schools.

And it isn't at all clear to me that groups like USA Volleyball would have much interest in policing collegiate volleyball. The only way I see them taking that on is if the schools pay them enough to subsidize the national teams they really care about. That financial burden would, IMO, lead to a dramatic reduction in the number of sports sponsored by colleges and universities. If the NCAA schools wanted that outcome, they could just change their own rules about how many sports their teams must sponsor in order to be members.

The 800 pound gorilla is football. And unlike most collegiate sports, it is purely American in its scope. There is no international craving for it. It deserves to be treated differently than Olympic sports (including basketball).

Except it won't be, and really can't be treated severally. I could see it divided out with other revenue sports, and AllTideUp suggested that tax liability be reduced by the amounts that subsidize non revenue sports so I could easily see that as well. But ArkansasStFan said a mouthful when he noted the 100 plus smaller schools which for the sake of basketball made the move up to grab cash they really didn't earn.

That farce should have been addressed ages ago. But as with any bureaucracy the NCAA utilized that socialism to make their endowment 1 Billion & growing and used it to justify staff increases.

When it comes to this mess I am a deconstructionist. Let the government tax the business because that will bring a cold wet slap of reality to it all faster than any NCAA rules and regulations. Let the profitable programs of a school subsidize the non revenue sports and get a write off for it. But quit subsidizing programs at other schools with the revenues withheld from mine.

(12-08-2017 01:47 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Except it won't be, and really can't be treated severally. I could see it divided out with other revenue sports, and AllTideUp suggested that tax liability be reduced by the amounts that subsidize non revenue sports so I could easily see that as well. But ArkansasStFan said a mouthful when he noted the 100 plus smaller schools which for the sake of basketball made the move up to grab cash they really didn't earn.

That farce should have been addressed ages ago. But as with any bureaucracy the NCAA utilized that socialism to make their endowment 1 Billion & growing and used it to justify staff increases.

What it boils down to is the conclusion of that article I linked to above: The powers-that-be who have it good under the current system (successful programs, lots of revenue) "would rather wring their hands and live with a broken system than do the work of changing it."