(01-02-2018 01:08 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(01-01-2018 11:34 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  USC is the biggest rival for Notre Dame - the Trojans are not going away. Stanford is relatively new and could be on the chopping block, IMO.

Having both USC and Stanford on the schedule means the Irish get to play in the state of California every year instead of every other year..

I am always reminded by the Irish, that he who tries to hold onto everything, is incapable of holding onto the most important things. The world has changed around them. Now they have to decide what it is that is the most important to them. They can not continue to juggle Stanford, U.S.C. a prominent Big 10 game, Navy, and play half of an ACC schedule.

It's pretty clear to everyone that the vast majority of recruits are in the Southeast/Southwest. The reason for playing in California every year has changed with the cultural interests of the regions. There is little that they now need that cannot be provided by the ACC. They need to play more games in the Southeast and maintain their alumni base in New York and New England. If they joined in full they would have direct access to the CFP, more Southeastern exposure, games in the Northeast and 3 open games for Navy, U.S.C. and a Big 10 foe. But they would be better served with Cincinnati as a G5 in lieu of a Big 10 game, and keeping U.S.C. w/o Stanford.

(01-02-2018 03:41 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(01-02-2018 01:08 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(01-01-2018 11:34 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  USC is the biggest rival for Notre Dame - the Trojans are not going away. Stanford is relatively new and could be on the chopping block, IMO.

Having both USC and Stanford on the schedule means the Irish get to play in the state of California every year instead of every other year..

I am always reminded by the Irish, that he who tries to hold onto everything, is incapable of holding onto the most important things. The world has changed around them. Now they have to decide what it is that is the most important to them. They can not continue to juggle Stanford, U.S.C. a prominent Big 10 game, Navy, and play half of an ACC schedule.

It's pretty clear to everyone that the vast majority of recruits are in the Southeast/Southwest. The reason for playing in California every year has changed with the cultural interests of the regions. There is little that they now need that cannot be provided by the ACC. They need to play more games in the Southeast and maintain their alumni base in New York and New England. If they joined in full they would have direct access to the CFP, more Southeastern exposure, games in the Northeast and 3 open games for Navy, U.S.C. and a Big 10 foe. But they would be better served with Cincinnati as a G5 in lieu of a Big 10 game, and keeping U.S.C. w/o Stanford.

Notre Dame may eventually get to the point where they rotate Stanford among other opponents rather than playing them every year. The last 9 years of Stanford football are by far the best stretch in their football history; Notre Dame playing them every year is a much different deal than it was to play Stanford when they were coached by Walt Harris or Buddy Teevens. For the first 21 years of ND and Stanford playing every year, 1988-2008, ND won 16 and lost 5. Starting in 2009, Harbaugh's first year at Stanford, ND has won 2 and lost 7.

The improvement at Navy is not nearly as great, but even playing Navy every year is a more difficult task than it was 20 years ago.

USC and Navy are must-keep rivalries for ND. Everyone else should be rotated, with G5 opponents also on the schedule, if ND wants to be in the mix for the playoff in years when their team is really good.

Staying as an indy, ND's schedule should look something like this:

USC
Navy
5 ACC games
2 other P5 opponents each year - one of them being either Stanford or a Big Ten team, the other being a team from the SEC or Big 12. And, don't play the best teams in those conferences every year. Mix in some games with teams like Illinois (at Soldier Field, maybe), Vanderbilt, Texas Tech, so that every year at least one of these two P5 games is less challenging. Never play both Ohio State and Oklahoma, for example, in the same year.
3 G5 teams (including Army and the other FBS indies)

(01-02-2018 05:44 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(01-02-2018 03:41 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(01-02-2018 01:08 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(01-01-2018 11:34 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  USC is the biggest rival for Notre Dame - the Trojans are not going away. Stanford is relatively new and could be on the chopping block, IMO.

Having both USC and Stanford on the schedule means the Irish get to play in the state of California every year instead of every other year..

I am always reminded by the Irish, that he who tries to hold onto everything, is incapable of holding onto the most important things. The world has changed around them. Now they have to decide what it is that is the most important to them. They can not continue to juggle Stanford, U.S.C. a prominent Big 10 game, Navy, and play half of an ACC schedule.

It's pretty clear to everyone that the vast majority of recruits are in the Southeast/Southwest. The reason for playing in California every year has changed with the cultural interests of the regions. There is little that they now need that cannot be provided by the ACC. They need to play more games in the Southeast and maintain their alumni base in New York and New England. If they joined in full they would have direct access to the CFP, more Southeastern exposure, games in the Northeast and 3 open games for Navy, U.S.C. and a Big 10 foe. But they would be better served with Cincinnati as a G5 in lieu of a Big 10 game, and keeping U.S.C. w/o Stanford.

Notre Dame may eventually get to the point where they rotate Stanford among other opponents rather than playing them every year. The last 9 years of Stanford football are by far the best stretch in their football history; Notre Dame playing them every year is a much different deal than it was to play Stanford when they were coached by Walt Harris or Buddy Teevens. For the first 21 years of ND and Stanford playing every year, 1988-2008, ND won 16 and lost 5. Starting in 2009, Harbaugh's first year at Stanford, ND has won 2 and lost 7.

The improvement at Navy is not nearly as great, but even playing Navy every year is a more difficult task than it was 20 years ago.

USC and Navy are must-keep rivalries for ND. Everyone else should be rotated, with G5 opponents also on the schedule, if ND wants to be in the mix for the playoff in years when their team is really good.

Staying as an indy, ND's schedule should look something like this:

USC
Navy
5 ACC games
2 other P5 opponents each year - one of them being either Stanford or a Big Ten team, the other being a team from the SEC or Big 12. And, don't play the best teams in those conferences every year. Mix in some games with teams like Illinois (at Soldier Field, maybe), Vanderbilt, Texas Tech, so that every year at least one of these two P5 games is less challenging. Never play both Ohio State and Oklahoma, for example, in the same year.
3 G5 teams (including Army and the other FBS indies)

I agree with the gist of your remarks but had two thoughts.

1. Do you really want to play a second cut blocking option military school and get your big uglies sidelined with knee issues?

2. If you are going to play Army in addition to Navy then why not play Air Force too and put the Pope's trophy up against the Commander in Chief's trophy.

Good point about playing two academies each season. I wasn't suggesting playing Army every year, though, I was suggesting ND play three teams each year from a group including Army, the other indies, and all G5 conference members (in addition to playing Navy every year).

This season Notre Dame played Temple, Miami(OH), and Navy. That's 3 G5 teams, which is typical for a P5 schedule and most contenders only play 2 non P5 opponents.

The problem for the Irish this year was the number of ranked teams: Georgia, Michigan State, NC State, USC, Miami, Stanford. That can happen in a conference, too.

(01-03-2018 10:16 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  This season Notre Dame played Temple, Miami(OH), and Navy. That's 3 G5 teams, which is typical for a P5 schedule and most contenders only play 2 non P5 opponents.

The problem for the Irish this year was the number of ranked teams: Georgia, Michigan State, NC State, USC, Miami, Stanford. That can happen in a conference, too.

That's true, but not nearly as likely since N.D. likes to play names to appease their singular TV contract which Mark, is not competitive with their earning potential in a conference where everyone's brand is used to leverage the amounts.

Let's say N.D. is in a conference. Let's say that conference has 5 ranked teams (a high side estimate even for the SEC) will they play all 5? No. The no conference favors having all their brands play each other which is why we have divisions.

Notre Dame makes 22 million roughly on their TV contract as an independent. There's not one single P conference making that little. Add the advantages of the T3 pooled revenue on a conference network and the gap is even larger.

What they are facing is the fact that California dreaming isn't really helping their recruiting on the West Coast, the travel is expensive, and the two schools they play are both capable of handing them losses.

The recruiting is better in the Southeast and Southwest and yet their schedule isn't really providing them with double access to the Southeast efficiently. Hence the Georgia and Arkansas series they scheduled.

I submit that this is their moment of great decision. Do we stay independent and tweak the schedule South as opposed to West? Do we join a conference in full? If so do we go for recruiting access and stay with the ACC or do we just grab the most cash and head to the Big 10?

While I don't know what they will do, if I were their A.D. and could ignore their Alums I would choose the ACC in full because it checks the most boxes. Southeast exposure on a regular and efficient basis, maintained presence in New England and New York, and the money will improve with our inclusion and with the new network.

I know N.D. is 11th in total revenue now, but it has been 30 years since their last championship in football and they've never won one in men's basketball or baseball.

Heck even the sports writers, who once drooled over N.D. and gave them props when that cred was not due, are dying out now and retiring in record numbers. Add to that the secular nature of today's world and these kids they are recruiting don't see the history that made them special. So they have window that is closing on them and they need to win big now or be forgotten like Fordham and Carlisle.

Playing and beating Clemson and Florida State will now provide the same credibility that they once achieved by beating U.S.C. and Michigan. The ACC still has enough schools that will fall below the Irish in the pecking order that an all ACC schedule will be less difficult than what they try to achieve now and even better if they win the ACC they get in during most years. If we move to a P4 champs only format it would be a lock.

N.D. has been scheduling like it's 1980 and they need a couple of brand wins and a national presence. In 1980 they had plenty of other independents to play. No longer is that the case. Conferences have consolidated the power and N.D.'s power is waning big time by being the lone wolf out of the pack.

I think a big decision is coming and that it "might" link up with the launch of a conference network.

(01-03-2018 01:52 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(01-03-2018 10:16 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  This season Notre Dame played Temple, Miami(OH), and Navy. That's 3 G5 teams, which is typical for a P5 schedule and most contenders only play 2 non P5 opponents.

The problem for the Irish this year was the number of ranked teams: Georgia, Michigan State, NC State, USC, Miami, Stanford. That can happen in a conference, too.

That's true, but not nearly as likely since N.D. likes to play names to appease their singular TV contract which Mark, is not competitive with their earning potential in a conference where everyone's brand is used to leverage the amounts.

Let's say N.D. is in a conference. Let's say that conference has 5 ranked teams (a high side estimate even for the SEC) will they play all 5? No. The no conference favors having all their brands play each other which is why we have divisions.

Notre Dame makes 22 million roughly on their TV contract as an independent. There's not one single P conference making that little. Add the advantages of the T3 pooled revenue on a conference network and the gap is even larger.

What they are facing is the fact that California dreaming isn't really helping their recruiting on the West Coast, the travel is expensive, and the two schools they play are both capable of handing them losses.

The recruiting is better in the Southeast and Southwest and yet their schedule isn't really providing them with double access to the Southeast efficiently. Hence the Georgia and Arkansas series they scheduled.

I submit that this is their moment of great decision. Do we stay independent and tweak the schedule South as opposed to West? Do we join a conference in full? If so do we go for recruiting access and stay with the ACC or do we just grab the most cash and head to the Big 10?

While I don't know what they will do, if I were their A.D. and could ignore their Alums I would choose the ACC in full because it checks the most boxes. Southeast exposure on a regular and efficient basis, maintained presence in New England and New York, and the money will improve with our inclusion and with the new network.

I know N.D. is 11th in total revenue now, but it has been 30 years since their last championship in football and they've never won one in men's basketball or baseball.

Heck even the sports writers, who once drooled over N.D. and gave them props when that cred was not due, are dying out now and retiring in record numbers. Add to that the secular nature of today's world and these kids they are recruiting don't see the history that made them special. So they have window that is closing on them and they need to win big now or be forgotten like Fordham and Carlisle.

Playing and beating Clemson and Florida State will now provide the same credibility that they once achieved by beating U.S.C. and Michigan. The ACC still has enough schools that will fall below the Irish in the pecking order that an all ACC schedule will be less difficult than what they try to achieve now and even better if they win the ACC they get in during most years. If we move to a P4 champs only format it would be a lock.

N.D. has been scheduling like it's 1980 and they need a couple of brand wins and a national presence. In 1980 they had plenty of other independents to play. No longer is that the case. Conferences have consolidated the power and N.D.'s power is waning big time by being the lone wolf out of the pack.

I think a big decision is coming and that it "might" link up with the launch of a conference network.

Yes, they better get while the getting is good.

One of these days, they're not going to be as attractive and their choices could be made for them.

(01-03-2018 01:52 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(01-03-2018 10:16 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  This season Notre Dame played Temple, Miami(OH), and Navy. That's 3 G5 teams, which is typical for a P5 schedule and most contenders only play 2 non P5 opponents.

The problem for the Irish this year was the number of ranked teams: Georgia, Michigan State, NC State, USC, Miami, Stanford. That can happen in a conference, too.

That's true, but not nearly as likely since N.D. likes to play names to appease their singular TV contract which Mark, is not competitive with their earning potential in a conference where everyone's brand is used to leverage the amounts.

Let's say N.D. is in a conference. Let's say that conference has 5 ranked teams (a high side estimate even for the SEC) will they play all 5? No. The no conference favors having all their brands play each other which is why we have divisions.

Notre Dame makes 22 million roughly on their TV contract as an independent. There's not one single P conference making that little. Add the advantages of the T3 pooled revenue on a conference network and the gap is even larger.

What they are facing is the fact that California dreaming isn't really helping their recruiting on the West Coast, the travel is expensive, and the two schools they play are both capable of handing them losses.

The recruiting is better in the Southeast and Southwest and yet their schedule isn't really providing them with double access to the Southeast efficiently. Hence the Georgia and Arkansas series they scheduled.

I submit that this is their moment of great decision. Do we stay independent and tweak the schedule South as opposed to West? Do we join a conference in full? If so do we go for recruiting access and stay with the ACC or do we just grab the most cash and head to the Big 10?

While I don't know what they will do, if I were their A.D. and could ignore their Alums I would choose the ACC in full because it checks the most boxes. Southeast exposure on a regular and efficient basis, maintained presence in New England and New York, and the money will improve with our inclusion and with the new network.

I know N.D. is 11th in total revenue now, but it has been 30 years since their last championship in football and they've never won one in men's basketball or baseball.

Heck even the sports writers, who once drooled over N.D. and gave them props when that cred was not due, are dying out now and retiring in record numbers. Add to that the secular nature of today's world and these kids they are recruiting don't see the history that made them special. So they have window that is closing on them and they need to win big now or be forgotten like Fordham and Carlisle.

Playing and beating Clemson and Florida State will now provide the same credibility that they once achieved by beating U.S.C. and Michigan. The ACC still has enough schools that will fall below the Irish in the pecking order that an all ACC schedule will be less difficult than what they try to achieve now and even better if they win the ACC they get in during most years. If we move to a P4 champs only format it would be a lock.

N.D. has been scheduling like it's 1980 and they need a couple of brand wins and a national presence. In 1980 they had plenty of other independents to play. No longer is that the case. Conferences have consolidated the power and N.D.'s power is waning big time by being the lone wolf out of the pack.

I think a big decision is coming and that it "might" link up with the launch of a conference network.

The first time that Notre Dame agreed to join the ACC, the "ease in period" was 7 years. If Notre Dame joins when the ACCN launches, their "ease in period" would have lasted for 6 years the second time around.

Notre

(01-03-2018 02:30 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  

(01-03-2018 01:52 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(01-03-2018 10:16 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  This season Notre Dame played Temple, Miami(OH), and Navy. That's 3 G5 teams, which is typical for a P5 schedule and most contenders only play 2 non P5 opponents.

The problem for the Irish this year was the number of ranked teams: Georgia, Michigan State, NC State, USC, Miami, Stanford. That can happen in a conference, too.

That's true, but not nearly as likely since N.D. likes to play names to appease their singular TV contract which Mark, is not competitive with their earning potential in a conference where everyone's brand is used to leverage the amounts.

Let's say N.D. is in a conference. Let's say that conference has 5 ranked teams (a high side estimate even for the SEC) will they play all 5? No. The no conference favors having all their brands play each other which is why we have divisions.

Notre Dame makes 22 million roughly on their TV contract as an independent. There's not one single P conference making that little. Add the advantages of the T3 pooled revenue on a conference network and the gap is even larger.

What they are facing is the fact that California dreaming isn't really helping their recruiting on the West Coast, the travel is expensive, and the two schools they play are both capable of handing them losses.

The recruiting is better in the Southeast and Southwest and yet their schedule isn't really providing them with double access to the Southeast efficiently. Hence the Georgia and Arkansas series they scheduled.

I submit that this is their moment of great decision. Do we stay independent and tweak the schedule South as opposed to West? Do we join a conference in full? If so do we go for recruiting access and stay with the ACC or do we just grab the most cash and head to the Big 10?

While I don't know what they will do, if I were their A.D. and could ignore their Alums I would choose the ACC in full because it checks the most boxes. Southeast exposure on a regular and efficient basis, maintained presence in New England and New York, and the money will improve with our inclusion and with the new network.

I know N.D. is 11th in total revenue now, but it has been 30 years since their last championship in football and they've never won one in men's basketball or baseball.

Heck even the sports writers, who once drooled over N.D. and gave them props when that cred was not due, are dying out now and retiring in record numbers. Add to that the secular nature of today's world and these kids they are recruiting don't see the history that made them special. So they have window that is closing on them and they need to win big now or be forgotten like Fordham and Carlisle.

Playing and beating Clemson and Florida State will now provide the same credibility that they once achieved by beating U.S.C. and Michigan. The ACC still has enough schools that will fall below the Irish in the pecking order that an all ACC schedule will be less difficult than what they try to achieve now and even better if they win the ACC they get in during most years. If we move to a P4 champs only format it would be a lock.

N.D. has been scheduling like it's 1980 and they need a couple of brand wins and a national presence. In 1980 they had plenty of other independents to play. No longer is that the case. Conferences have consolidated the power and N.D.'s power is waning big time by being the lone wolf out of the pack.

I think a big decision is coming and that it "might" link up with the launch of a conference network.

Yes, they better get while the getting is good.

One of these days, they're not going to be as attractive and their choices could be made for them.

Notre Dame is still the biggest draw. Getting to the title game in 2012 was important to maintain relevance. But time is slipping away for them. They have 3 issues:

3. Aging fan base. The 3rd and 4th generation Irish Catholics in NYC aren't as tied to them as they once were. Hard to imagine now with 6 Catholics, 2 Jews and 1 Protestant on the Supreme Court, but not that long ago, there had never been a Catholic on the Court. It was dominated by Protestants. JFK was the first Catholic president. It was nearly as big a deal as Obama as the first Black president. They don't have that automatic connection anymore.
2. After two losses, they have little to play for. Meanwhile, their opponents are still gunning for them.
1. Their laudable goal of keeping the University president the highest paid person on campus means schools like Alabama will be paying their coordinators more than Notre Dame pays its head coach. It will get harder and harder to get top flight coaches.

Fixing #2 may help with #3, but they will never be what they once were. #1 is a real problem regardless of whether they join a conference or not.

Recruiting isn't as big an issue. The Big 10 gets more recruits out of Florida than anywhere else. You just need recruiters with connections to the high schools to get your foot in the door. The Big 12 schools the last couple of years have done better in Louisiana than SEC schools not named LSU.

(01-03-2018 01:52 PM)JRsec Wrote:  What they are facing is the fact that California dreaming isn't really helping their recruiting on the West Coast, the travel is expensive, and the two schools they play are both capable of handing them losses.

If I were ND I would continue playing USC every year at least. In addition to the cache of that rivalry, several of the best high school football programs in SoCal are at Catholic high schools, and ND recruits them very well.

Also, I don't know where all of ND's support comes from, but to the extent ND is courting support from Catholics who did not attend Notre Dame, there are more Catholics living in California than in any other state, by far. The media could talk about "subway alumni" in New York when ND won their 1966 national title, and New York was the most populous state and home to the largest number of Catholics, but today California has 5 million more Catholics and twice the overall population of New York.

(01-04-2018 08:23 AM)bullet Wrote:  Notre

(01-03-2018 02:30 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  

(01-03-2018 01:52 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(01-03-2018 10:16 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  This season Notre Dame played Temple, Miami(OH), and Navy. That's 3 G5 teams, which is typical for a P5 schedule and most contenders only play 2 non P5 opponents.

The problem for the Irish this year was the number of ranked teams: Georgia, Michigan State, NC State, USC, Miami, Stanford. That can happen in a conference, too.

That's true, but not nearly as likely since N.D. likes to play names to appease their singular TV contract which Mark, is not competitive with their earning potential in a conference where everyone's brand is used to leverage the amounts.

Let's say N.D. is in a conference. Let's say that conference has 5 ranked teams (a high side estimate even for the SEC) will they play all 5? No. The no conference favors having all their brands play each other which is why we have divisions.

Notre Dame makes 22 million roughly on their TV contract as an independent. There's not one single P conference making that little. Add the advantages of the T3 pooled revenue on a conference network and the gap is even larger.

What they are facing is the fact that California dreaming isn't really helping their recruiting on the West Coast, the travel is expensive, and the two schools they play are both capable of handing them losses.

The recruiting is better in the Southeast and Southwest and yet their schedule isn't really providing them with double access to the Southeast efficiently. Hence the Georgia and Arkansas series they scheduled.

I submit that this is their moment of great decision. Do we stay independent and tweak the schedule South as opposed to West? Do we join a conference in full? If so do we go for recruiting access and stay with the ACC or do we just grab the most cash and head to the Big 10?

While I don't know what they will do, if I were their A.D. and could ignore their Alums I would choose the ACC in full because it checks the most boxes. Southeast exposure on a regular and efficient basis, maintained presence in New England and New York, and the money will improve with our inclusion and with the new network.

I know N.D. is 11th in total revenue now, but it has been 30 years since their last championship in football and they've never won one in men's basketball or baseball.

Heck even the sports writers, who once drooled over N.D. and gave them props when that cred was not due, are dying out now and retiring in record numbers. Add to that the secular nature of today's world and these kids they are recruiting don't see the history that made them special. So they have window that is closing on them and they need to win big now or be forgotten like Fordham and Carlisle.

Playing and beating Clemson and Florida State will now provide the same credibility that they once achieved by beating U.S.C. and Michigan. The ACC still has enough schools that will fall below the Irish in the pecking order that an all ACC schedule will be less difficult than what they try to achieve now and even better if they win the ACC they get in during most years. If we move to a P4 champs only format it would be a lock.

N.D. has been scheduling like it's 1980 and they need a couple of brand wins and a national presence. In 1980 they had plenty of other independents to play. No longer is that the case. Conferences have consolidated the power and N.D.'s power is waning big time by being the lone wolf out of the pack.

I think a big decision is coming and that it "might" link up with the launch of a conference network.

Yes, they better get while the getting is good.

One of these days, they're not going to be as attractive and their choices could be made for them.

Notre Dame is still the biggest draw. Getting to the title game in 2012 was important to maintain relevance. But time is slipping away for them. They have 3 issues:

3. Aging fan base. The 3rd and 4th generation Irish Catholics in NYC aren't as tied to them as they once were. Hard to imagine now with 6 Catholics, 2 Jews and 1 Protestant on the Supreme Court, but not that long ago, there had never been a Catholic on the Court. It was dominated by Protestants. JFK was the first Catholic president. It was nearly as big a deal as Obama as the first Black president. They don't have that automatic connection anymore.
2. After two losses, they have little to play for. Meanwhile, their opponents are still gunning for them.
1. Their laudable goal of keeping the University president the highest paid person on campus means schools like Alabama will be paying their coordinators more than Notre Dame pays its head coach. It will get harder and harder to get top flight coaches.

Fixing #2 may help with #3, but they will never be what they once were. #1 is a real problem regardless of whether they join a conference or not.

Recruiting isn't as big an issue. The Big 10 gets more recruits out of Florida than anywhere else. You just need recruiters with connections to the high schools to get your foot in the door. The Big 12 schools the last couple of years have done better in Louisiana than SEC schools not named LSU.

Well as to the Big 10 an Florida there are probably more transplanted Northerners in Florida now than native Floridians. So, part of that pull is old family ties, but yes having ins with high school coaches is also key. Meyer built those and Frost will have some to pull from as well.

As far as Louisiana recruiting goes proximity helps the Big 12 some, but the way the game is played in Louisiana tells me that perhaps some of the Big 12 programs aren't as lily white as portrayed.

(01-04-2018 01:58 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(01-03-2018 01:52 PM)JRsec Wrote:  What they are facing is the fact that California dreaming isn't really helping their recruiting on the West Coast, the travel is expensive, and the two schools they play are both capable of handing them losses.

If I were ND I would continue playing USC every year at least. In addition to the cache of that rivalry, several of the best high school football programs in SoCal are at Catholic high schools, and ND recruits them very well.

Also, I don't know where all of ND's support comes from, but to the extent ND is courting support from Catholics who did not attend Notre Dame, there are more Catholics living in California than in any other state, by far. The media could talk about "subway alumni" in New York when ND won their 1966 national title, and New York was the most populous state and home to the largest number of Catholics, but today California has 5 million more Catholics and twice the overall population of New York.

A good % of Catholic's in California are Hispanic and their love of American Football isn't exactly deep.

(01-04-2018 03:34 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(01-04-2018 01:58 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(01-03-2018 01:52 PM)JRsec Wrote:  What they are facing is the fact that California dreaming isn't really helping their recruiting on the West Coast, the travel is expensive, and the two schools they play are both capable of handing them losses.

If I were ND I would continue playing USC every year at least. In addition to the cache of that rivalry, several of the best high school football programs in SoCal are at Catholic high schools, and ND recruits them very well.

Also, I don't know where all of ND's support comes from, but to the extent ND is courting support from Catholics who did not attend Notre Dame, there are more Catholics living in California than in any other state, by far. The media could talk about "subway alumni" in New York when ND won their 1966 national title, and New York was the most populous state and home to the largest number of Catholics, but today California has 5 million more Catholics and twice the overall population of New York.

A good % of Catholic's in California are Hispanic and their love of American Football isn't exactly deep.

That is equally true of Catholics in New York, so either way California is a better place for ND to find Catholics who support Notre Dame football.

I worry that Notre Dame would become ordinary and lose it's luster if they joined a conference. They may be going that direction regardless but I think they are beat positioned to be relevant as an independent in my opinion. I would try to reduce the ACC games to four a year and keep the USC and Stanford games.

Back to the original topic; the disappointing bowl performance doesn't help the PAC 12. Does it move the needle closer to some change or does it not register at all? They will eventually have to do something right?

(01-04-2018 09:43 PM)GE and MTS Wrote:  I worry that Notre Dame would become ordinary and lose it's luster if they joined a conference. They may be going that direction regardless but I think they are beat positioned to be relevant as an independent in my opinion. I would try to reduce the ACC games to four a year and keep the USC and Stanford games.

Back to the original topic; the disappointing bowl performance doesn't help the PAC 12. Does it move the needle closer to some change or does it not register at all? They will eventually have to do something right?

As to the PAC, if it doesn't register at all that in itself would be an indication of future instability. The longer an issue goes untended the worse its consequences become. It will be the changes that offer them the most hope. But what kind of change?

In my mind, change is either the conference implodes or they expand. Can they wait long enough to get some big fish? What if they wait but don't end up with their targets? Lots to ponder.

(01-04-2018 10:21 PM)GE and MTS Wrote:  In my mind, change is either the conference implodes or they expand. Can they wait long enough to get some big fish? What if they wait but don't end up with their targets? Lots to ponder.

I was thinking more of a change in the delivery model of the network and in the partnering with a major provider like ESPN or FOX. If the increased carriage leverage helps them to monetize the network better, and they agree to a change in emphasis for it away from Olympic sports to the big 3, then they might be able to close the present gap enough to find a more comfortable revenue plateau than the one they presently occupy. That kind of change doesn't necessarily mean expansion but if they chose that route the network hookup would help there too.

(01-04-2018 10:01 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(01-04-2018 09:43 PM)GE and MTS Wrote:  I worry that Notre Dame would become ordinary and lose it's luster if they joined a conference. They may be going that direction regardless but I think they are beat positioned to be relevant as an independent in my opinion. I would try to reduce the ACC games to four a year and keep the USC and Stanford games.

Back to the original topic; the disappointing bowl performance doesn't help the PAC 12. Does it move the needle closer to some change or does it not register at all? They will eventually have to do something right?

As to the PAC, if it doesn't register at all that in itself would be an indication of future instability. The longer an issue goes untended the worse its consequences become. It will be the changes that offer them the most hope. But what kind of change?

Kelly at UCLA is the PAC's "last hope".
If Kelly, with a proven track record of being able to put a good, exciting, winning program on the field in the "PAC market" along with out of the box hire Herm Edwards at Arizona State, can't get PAC football going we will know that the PAC is doomed.
They have just enough time before all of the contracts expire to become successful, there will be no second chances before the conferences collapses as a marketable entity due to the lack of enthusiasm.

I don't see much realignment from the PAC-12, but have visited enough USC forums to know there is definitely discontentment regarding the state of the program. Winning the PAC-12 did not seem to suggest to them things are on the right track.

That said, in a massive realignment at some point in the future (say we go down to 2-3 major conferences), PAC-12 teams have a lot more in common with the Big Ten than anyone else and there would be a degree of sense to it (ACC more likely joining up with SEC).

(01-05-2018 03:12 PM)ohio1317 Wrote:  I don't see much realignment from the PAC-12, but have visited enough USC forums to know there is definitely discontentment regarding the state of the program. Winning the PAC-12 did not seem to suggest to them things are on the right track.

That said, in a massive realignment at some point in the future (say we go down to 2-3 major conferences), PAC-12 teams have a lot more in common with the Big Ten than anyone else and there would be a degree of sense to it (ACC more likely joining up with SEC).

I totally agree and if that should come to pass there is much more synergy with those two moves than with other configurations. The question at that point will be how to divide the Big 12. But then that seems to be a perpetual question.