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12/21/17 KenPom Observations
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geef Offline
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Post: #61
RE: 12/21/17 KenPom Observations
(01-17-2018 02:53 PM)Wudizzle Wrote:  
(01-17-2018 02:41 PM)geef Wrote:  
(01-17-2018 02:33 PM)Stickboy46 Wrote:  
(01-17-2018 02:32 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(01-17-2018 02:23 PM)Stickboy46 Wrote:  Couple more interesting stats
Using data for only conference games the AAC has the SLOWEST tempo as a conference out of all 32 D1 conferences. Also have the 30 ranked eFG%

Those jumped out at me as odd.

Welcome to a conference with Cincinnati and UCF.

I mean ..... we did just come from a conference with UNI ... so i didn't think it could get any worse ...

UNI is the third-slowest. USF is actually the worst of the bunch in the AAC - they're 344 out of 351. UC, UCF, and SMU are all in the low 300s. Wichita State is surprisingly in the middle of the pack at 157. I thought that their tempo would be faster, but I could be conflating that with efficiency.....

I'll have to go back and look, but this has to be WSU's fastest tempo in a long time. This thing was originally built on hard-nosed defense and a semi-plodding, but efficient, offense. As the offensive talent on the team has increased, some (not all) of the defensive prowess and grit has fallen off.

A lot of things about low tempo are not bad. If a team has a low turnover percentage and plays good defense, their defensive possessions are going to average out so long that their tempo will be lower half regardless of how quickly they run their offense.

Unless you have an exceptionally talented offense, the same can be true of low offensive tempo. As an example, the undefeated WSU team was 214th in average offensive possession length, but 17th in AdjO efficiency. That team just worked on offense until they got a great shot.

Good post, and that's sort of what I was getting at. Because WSU scores at a relatively high clip, that can lead you to believe that their pace is faster. It's really about efficiency, however, which is terrific for the Shockers.

I like your description of defensive possessions as well. UC's tempo is exceptionally low in large part for this reason. Teams struggle to find a good shot, and often times use most of the clock.

On WSU's style - since I've watched your team considerably more this year, I've sort of forgotten that the team was largely built like an old Big East squad with hard-nosed defense and bodies flying everywhere.
01-17-2018 03:24 PM
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Stickboy46 Offline
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Post: #62
RE: 12/21/17 KenPom Observations
(01-17-2018 03:24 PM)geef Wrote:  
(01-17-2018 02:53 PM)Wudizzle Wrote:  
(01-17-2018 02:41 PM)geef Wrote:  
(01-17-2018 02:33 PM)Stickboy46 Wrote:  
(01-17-2018 02:32 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  Welcome to a conference with Cincinnati and UCF.

I mean ..... we did just come from a conference with UNI ... so i didn't think it could get any worse ...

UNI is the third-slowest. USF is actually the worst of the bunch in the AAC - they're 344 out of 351. UC, UCF, and SMU are all in the low 300s. Wichita State is surprisingly in the middle of the pack at 157. I thought that their tempo would be faster, but I could be conflating that with efficiency.....

I'll have to go back and look, but this has to be WSU's fastest tempo in a long time. This thing was originally built on hard-nosed defense and a semi-plodding, but efficient, offense. As the offensive talent on the team has increased, some (not all) of the defensive prowess and grit has fallen off.

A lot of things about low tempo are not bad. If a team has a low turnover percentage and plays good defense, their defensive possessions are going to average out so long that their tempo will be lower half regardless of how quickly they run their offense.

Unless you have an exceptionally talented offense, the same can be true of low offensive tempo. As an example, the undefeated WSU team was 214th in average offensive possession length, but 17th in AdjO efficiency. That team just worked on offense until they got a great shot.

Good post, and that's sort of what I was getting at. Because WSU scores at a relatively high clip, that can lead you to believe that their pace is faster. It's really about efficiency, however, which is terrific for the Shockers.

I like your description of defensive possessions as well. UC's tempo is exceptionally low in large part for this reason. Teams struggle to find a good shot, and often times use most of the clock.

On WSU's style - since I've watched your team considerably more this year, I've sort of forgotten that the team was largely built like an old Big East squad with hard-nosed defense and bodies flying everywhere.

The last statement is very true. WSU has always been known for good defense (ended up #1 overall defense a few years ago). This year is different if only because they are truly good offensively, which seems to have let the defense slide a bit. It's gotten better the past 6-7 games though.
01-17-2018 03:26 PM
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Wudizzle Offline
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Post: #63
RE: 12/21/17 KenPom Observations
(01-17-2018 03:24 PM)geef Wrote:  On WSU's style - since I've watched your team considerably more this year, I've sort of forgotten that the team was largely built like an old Big East squad with hard-nosed defense and bodies flying everywhere.

There are definitely still some of those guys on the team (Kelly is the best example). But the improved recruiting has trade-offs. We're getting more guys with more "basketball talent." I'm hoping we keep it in the sweet spot of finding guys that can hoop but also want to do the dirty work. To me, that's how both WSU and Cincy will be very successful nationally.
01-17-2018 03:29 PM
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Wudizzle Offline
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Post: #64
RE: 12/21/17 KenPom Observations
(01-17-2018 03:26 PM)Stickboy46 Wrote:  
(01-17-2018 03:24 PM)geef Wrote:  
(01-17-2018 02:53 PM)Wudizzle Wrote:  
(01-17-2018 02:41 PM)geef Wrote:  
(01-17-2018 02:33 PM)Stickboy46 Wrote:  I mean ..... we did just come from a conference with UNI ... so i didn't think it could get any worse ...

UNI is the third-slowest. USF is actually the worst of the bunch in the AAC - they're 344 out of 351. UC, UCF, and SMU are all in the low 300s. Wichita State is surprisingly in the middle of the pack at 157. I thought that their tempo would be faster, but I could be conflating that with efficiency.....

I'll have to go back and look, but this has to be WSU's fastest tempo in a long time. This thing was originally built on hard-nosed defense and a semi-plodding, but efficient, offense. As the offensive talent on the team has increased, some (not all) of the defensive prowess and grit has fallen off.

A lot of things about low tempo are not bad. If a team has a low turnover percentage and plays good defense, their defensive possessions are going to average out so long that their tempo will be lower half regardless of how quickly they run their offense.

Unless you have an exceptionally talented offense, the same can be true of low offensive tempo. As an example, the undefeated WSU team was 214th in average offensive possession length, but 17th in AdjO efficiency. That team just worked on offense until they got a great shot.

Good post, and that's sort of what I was getting at. Because WSU scores at a relatively high clip, that can lead you to believe that their pace is faster. It's really about efficiency, however, which is terrific for the Shockers.

I like your description of defensive possessions as well. UC's tempo is exceptionally low in large part for this reason. Teams struggle to find a good shot, and often times use most of the clock.

On WSU's style - since I've watched your team considerably more this year, I've sort of forgotten that the team was largely built like an old Big East squad with hard-nosed defense and bodies flying everywhere.

The last statement is very true. WSU has always been known for good defense (ended up #1 overall defense a few years ago). This year is different if only because they are truly good offensively, which seems to have let the defense slide a bit. It's gotten better the past 6-7 games though.

It's important to keep in mind that this non-coincidentally matches up with the return of McDuffie.

Anyway, don't want to take this good thread too far afield on one team. I have some good conference SOS numbers for the unbalanced schedule based on kenPom, but I can't get the formatting to work on this forum. I'll try to post a photo of it later, or it's on the WSU board if others are interested.
01-17-2018 03:32 PM
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geef Offline
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Post: #65
RE: 12/21/17 KenPom Observations
(01-17-2018 03:29 PM)Wudizzle Wrote:  
(01-17-2018 03:24 PM)geef Wrote:  On WSU's style - since I've watched your team considerably more this year, I've sort of forgotten that the team was largely built like an old Big East squad with hard-nosed defense and bodies flying everywhere.

There are definitely still some of those guys on the team (Kelly is the best example). But the improved recruiting has trade-offs. We're getting more guys with more "basketball talent." I'm hoping we keep it in the sweet spot of finding guys that can hoop but also want to do the dirty work. To me, that's how both WSU and Cincy will be very successful nationally.

Yep. This seems to be the formula for the non-blue bloods. Get a solid mix of program guys with two or three higher-level talents who are willing to buy in.
01-17-2018 03:33 PM
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C0|db|00ded Offline
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Post: #66
RE: 12/21/17 KenPom Observations
(01-17-2018 03:26 PM)Stickboy46 Wrote:  
(01-17-2018 03:24 PM)geef Wrote:  
(01-17-2018 02:53 PM)Wudizzle Wrote:  
(01-17-2018 02:41 PM)geef Wrote:  
(01-17-2018 02:33 PM)Stickboy46 Wrote:  I mean ..... we did just come from a conference with UNI ... so i didn't think it could get any worse ...

UNI is the third-slowest. USF is actually the worst of the bunch in the AAC - they're 344 out of 351. UC, UCF, and SMU are all in the low 300s. Wichita State is surprisingly in the middle of the pack at 157. I thought that their tempo would be faster, but I could be conflating that with efficiency.....

I'll have to go back and look, but this has to be WSU's fastest tempo in a long time. This thing was originally built on hard-nosed defense and a semi-plodding, but efficient, offense. As the offensive talent on the team has increased, some (not all) of the defensive prowess and grit has fallen off.

A lot of things about low tempo are not bad. If a team has a low turnover percentage and plays good defense, their defensive possessions are going to average out so long that their tempo will be lower half regardless of how quickly they run their offense.

Unless you have an exceptionally talented offense, the same can be true of low offensive tempo. As an example, the undefeated WSU team was 214th in average offensive possession length, but 17th in AdjO efficiency. That team just worked on offense until they got a great shot.

Good post, and that's sort of what I was getting at. Because WSU scores at a relatively high clip, that can lead you to believe that their pace is faster. It's really about efficiency, however, which is terrific for the Shockers.

I like your description of defensive possessions as well. UC's tempo is exceptionally low in large part for this reason. Teams struggle to find a good shot, and often times use most of the clock.

On WSU's style - since I've watched your team considerably more this year, I've sort of forgotten that the team was largely built like an old Big East squad with hard-nosed defense and bodies flying everywhere.

The last statement is very true. WSU has always been known for good defense (ended up #1 overall defense a few years ago). This year is different if only because they are truly good offensively, which seems to have let the defense slide a bit. It's gotten better the past 6-7 games though.

This is exactly the case! The Shockers still live and breath by their defense but due to their excellent offensive talent this year, they can afford to transfer a little bit more of their effort to the scoring side of things. It makes for a prettier game to watch thus a better product for our fans.

Go back to SIU in the late 90's to early 00's and you'll see the #1 Kenpom defense in the nation (I'm just guessing but it had to be wayyyy up there). They had nearly zero offense save for a lone slasher that could finish when needed. The games were unbearable to watch but the wins still piled up for them. Cincyfan talks about rock fights... LOL. SIU was the rock fight champion of the universe. They could literally redefine how a team of referees had to call a game because their baseline action was nearly always a foul. Normal fouls became no-calls and muggings became the only way to draw a whistle.


T


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01-17-2018 03:35 PM
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