OptimisticOwl
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RE: The Trump is not fit to be president thread
(01-30-2018 02:19 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: (01-30-2018 01:09 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: (01-30-2018 11:51 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote: One, there is a difference between giving preference to people of one nation and putting up barriers to people of another nation.
If there is a hard cap on the total number, doesn't a preference to country A constitute a barrier to Country B?
If we give preference to Nigerians to the point that they get 90% of the slots, isn't that a barrier to Haitians?
If there are only two countries, then yes it would. If there are more, then it would constitute a barrier to the rest as well. Did I say something that suggested otherwise?
Not sure, but it seems like you're trying to debate something with me since you used two countries I have referenced.
\Well, I didn't want to use Norway, as that would make me a racist. Other than that, I just want to point out that preferences to one or morewould be a barrier to everybody else.
Personally, I prefer Owl69's method
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01-30-2018 09:01 PM |
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RiceLad15
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RE: The Trump is not fit to be president thread
(01-30-2018 09:01 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: (01-30-2018 02:19 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: (01-30-2018 01:09 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: (01-30-2018 11:51 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote: One, there is a difference between giving preference to people of one nation and putting up barriers to people of another nation.
If there is a hard cap on the total number, doesn't a preference to country A constitute a barrier to Country B?
If we give preference to Nigerians to the point that they get 90% of the slots, isn't that a barrier to Haitians?
If there are only two countries, then yes it would. If there are more, then it would constitute a barrier to the rest as well. Did I say something that suggested otherwise?
Not sure, but it seems like you're trying to debate something with me since you used two countries I have referenced.
\Well, I didn't want to use Norway, as that would make me a racist. Other than that, I just want to point out that preferences to one or morewould be a barrier to everybody else.
Personally, I prefer Owl69's method
Ok, good to know.
And OO, you're better than that silly comment about Norway. In no way would you have saying Norway in that statement have resulted in anyone on this board accusing you of racism.
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01-30-2018 09:13 PM |
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georgewebb
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RE: The Trump is not fit to be president thread
OK we have some proposals for ideal immigration policy. But the question remains: is having national origin preferences inherently wrong?
By way of background, the historic view in international law is essentially amoral: unless codified otherwise by treaty, and subject to a few special-case exceptions, a country has the absolute right to let in whoever it wants and keep out whoever it wants. Stated differently, a non-national of a country historically has no recognized right to admission in the first place, and thus no right to any particular form of "fairness" (e.g. non-discrimination) in admission.
This historic legal understanding is partly rooted in practicality: since states are sovereigns, there is no authority that a non-national could appeal to complain about not being admitted, and thus necessarily the right of admission/non-admission rests entirely with the state. Under this understanding, it would be perfectly valid for a country to decide that it will only admit people who are right-handed, or whose last name is A-L, or who were born on odd-number days, or whatever. And of course, it would also be valid to decide not to admit anyone at all, or to admit only hand-picked athletes and scientists, or relatives of government officials, or to require a $10 million entrance fee, or whatever. I suppose slots could even be allocated like West Point admissions: each applicant is nominated by a politician.
The US Supreme Court's general view has been that such policies, as bizarre as they might seem if applied to domestic law, are constitutional.
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01-30-2018 09:59 PM |
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OptimisticOwl
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RE: The Trump is not fit to be president thread
(01-30-2018 09:13 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: (01-30-2018 09:01 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: (01-30-2018 02:19 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote: (01-30-2018 01:09 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: (01-30-2018 11:51 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote: One, there is a difference between giving preference to people of one nation and putting up barriers to people of another nation.
If there is a hard cap on the total number, doesn't a preference to country A constitute a barrier to Country B?
If we give preference to Nigerians to the point that they get 90% of the slots, isn't that a barrier to Haitians?
If there are only two countries, then yes it would. If there are more, then it would constitute a barrier to the rest as well. Did I say something that suggested otherwise?
Not sure, but it seems like you're trying to debate something with me since you used two countries I have referenced.
\Well, I didn't want to use Norway, as that would make me a racist. Other than that, I just want to point out that preferences to one or morewould be a barrier to everybody else.
Personally, I prefer Owl69's method
Ok, good to know.
And OO, you're better than that silly comment about Norway. In no way would you have saying Norway in that statement have resulted in anyone on this board accusing you of racism.
Maybe, maybe not. I have been accused of racism just for advocating merit systems, and for advocating for better control of our borders. The implication is clear is a lot of quarters that anybody who doesn't condemn Trump as racist must himself be a racist, and thus a part of the basket of deplorables.
At the very least, using Norway in place of Nigeria would have derailed the conversation. Why would OO have chosen a lily white country like Norway?
Besides, I can speak more artfully than Trump. Not using Norway is part of that.
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01-30-2018 10:09 PM |
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Owl 69/70/75
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RE: The Trump is not fit to be president thread
Saw something the other day:
Racist = someone who wins an argument with a liberal.
I think that has been far too often the case.
Racism is vile and evil, but faux accusations are not much better. I'm going to look at the whole record, not isolated incidents taken out of context, in evaluating anyone. And I make no apologies for taking that approach.
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01-30-2018 10:28 PM |
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OptimisticOwl
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RE: The Trump is not fit to be president thread
(01-30-2018 10:28 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: Saw something the other day:
Racist = someone who wins an argument with a liberal.
I think that has been far too often the case.
Racism is vile and evil, but faux accusations are not much better. I'm going to look at the whole record, not isolated incidents taken out of context, in evaluating anyone. And I make no apologies for taking that approach.
I think I might modify that to:
Racist = someone who argues with a liberal.
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01-30-2018 11:59 PM |
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RiceLad15
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RE: The Trump is not fit to be president thread
(01-30-2018 10:28 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: Saw something the other day:
Racist = someone who wins an argument with a liberal.
I think that has been far too often the case.
Racism is vile and evil, but faux accusations are not much better. I'm going to look at the whole record, not isolated incidents taken out of context, in evaluating anyone. And I make no apologies for taking that approach.
Agreed about the comment on "faux accusations," and have said as much in other posts. I don't think what we have seen in the past with other Republican presidential candidates are truly "faux accusations," as they weren't about made up acts/actions, but I definitely think they were overreactions to things that didn't really fit the bill (but perhaps that is splitting hairs too much). They definitely did overreach, and as Tanq said, got us to where we are today.
But to the last point, where is the tipping point for when isolated incidents become the whole record? At this point, I've pointed out more than a handful of examples, but that still isn't enough? The whole point is that the accusations against Trump are not based on one or two incidents, but on a body of work that points towards an entire record...
I think you have a better argument about evaluating based on actions, as opposed to bluster.
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01-31-2018 12:02 PM |
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westsidewolf1989
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RE: The Trump is not fit to be president thread
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01-31-2018 12:29 PM |
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JustAnotherAustinOwlStill
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RE: The Trump is not fit to be president thread
(01-30-2018 03:17 PM)d1owls4life Wrote: (01-30-2018 01:09 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: I would expect that if someone were truly bigoted or Xenophobic or racist, then there would be a consistent, repeated pattern of such behavior, not isolated instances interspersed among other behaviors suggesting otherwise. I’m simply not going to overreact to isolated (and at least some disputed) off the cuff comments interspersed among a generic pattern of behavior inconsistent with that characterization. I don’t defend the statements, and I’m certainly not willing to die on that hill in your terminology. But it’s goingbto take more than that to convince me.
I mean if you can see Hillary as a champion of women because you overlook her support of Bills indiscretions or her response to having a sexual abuser in a key position on her staff, then how can you require someone to defend every statement of Trump’s?
http://www.newsweek.com/trumps-full-list...ers-779061
Even that's a fairly incomplete list, I'd say. People misspeak and say things that come out wrong and/or they regret saying. Biden's comments about Obama being "articulate" were pretty awful but he was not making comments like that all the time.
I would argue that Trump *does* exhibit a "consistent, repeated pattern" of racist and bigoted attitudes and beliefs, and frankly find arguments otherwise baffling, unless we are going to say that anyone who isn't an active Klansmen qualifies as "not racist". He does and says things over and over that someone who is NOT racist or bigoted simply wouldn't.
I'm not going to pull up that Romney quote again, but that wasn't not some "leftist" parroting DailyKos. That was the previous Republican nominee for President. FFS.
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01-31-2018 12:57 PM |
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RiceLad15
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RE: The Trump is not fit to be president thread
(01-31-2018 12:57 PM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote: (01-30-2018 03:17 PM)d1owls4life Wrote: (01-30-2018 01:09 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: I would expect that if someone were truly bigoted or Xenophobic or racist, then there would be a consistent, repeated pattern of such behavior, not isolated instances interspersed among other behaviors suggesting otherwise. I’m simply not going to overreact to isolated (and at least some disputed) off the cuff comments interspersed among a generic pattern of behavior inconsistent with that characterization. I don’t defend the statements, and I’m certainly not willing to die on that hill in your terminology. But it’s goingbto take more than that to convince me.
I mean if you can see Hillary as a champion of women because you overlook her support of Bills indiscretions or her response to having a sexual abuser in a key position on her staff, then how can you require someone to defend every statement of Trump’s?
http://www.newsweek.com/trumps-full-list...ers-779061
Even that's a fairly incomplete list, I'd say. People misspeak and say things that come out wrong and/or they regret saying. Biden's comments about Obama being "articulate" were pretty awful but he was not making comments like that all the time.
I would argue that Trump *does* exhibit a "consistent, repeated pattern" of racist and bigoted attitudes and beliefs, and frankly find arguments otherwise baffling, unless we are going to say that anyone who isn't an active Klansmen qualifies as "not racist". He does and says things over and over that someone who is NOT racist or bigoted simply wouldn't.
I'm not going to pull up that Romney quote again, but that wasn't not some "leftist" parroting DailyKos. That was the previous Republican nominee for President. FFS.
Or who can forget the current Speaker?
Quote: House Speaker Paul Ryan ripped Donald Trump's recent remarks saying a judge presiding over a lawsuit involving his business was biased because of his Mexican heritage as "the textbook definition of a racist comment."
https://www.cnn.com/2016/06/07/politics/...index.html
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01-31-2018 12:58 PM |
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westsidewolf1989
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RE: The Trump is not fit to be president thread
(01-31-2018 12:57 PM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote: Biden's comments about Obama being "articulate" were pretty awful but he was not making comments like that all the time.
Not sure what Joe Biden you are talking about. Biden made idiotic or insensitive comments all the time. Still don't understand why Obama didn't kick his ass to the curb before reelection.
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01-31-2018 01:08 PM |
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RiceLad15
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RE: The Trump is not fit to be president thread
(01-31-2018 01:08 PM)westsidewolf1989 Wrote: (01-31-2018 12:57 PM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote: Biden's comments about Obama being "articulate" were pretty awful but he was not making comments like that all the time.
Not sure what Joe Biden you are talking about. Biden made idiotic or insensitive comments all the time. Still don't understand why Obama didn't kick his ass to the curb before reelection.
Cus Obama liked the way the Trans Am looked in the White House garage.
https://politics.theonion.com/shirtless-...1819570732
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01-31-2018 01:18 PM |
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Ranger
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RE: The Trump is not fit to be president thread
(01-30-2018 11:59 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote: (01-30-2018 10:28 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote: Saw something the other day:
Racist = someone who wins an argument with a liberal.
I think that has been far too often the case.
Racism is vile and evil, but faux accusations are not much better. I'm going to look at the whole record, not isolated incidents taken out of context, in evaluating anyone. And I make no apologies for taking that approach.
I think I might modify that to:
Racist = someone who argues with a liberal.
Somewhat similar, but perhaps more precise -
Racist = someone who disagrees with a liberal
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02-01-2018 07:15 PM |
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JustAnotherAustinOwlStill
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RE: The Trump is not fit to be president thread
I thought about coming up with another list of the *Republicans* and *conservatives* who have condemned Trumps racism, but what's the point?
So, before the Nunes memo release sucks all the air out of the room, I thought I'd pose another question or five.
Why did Trump flat out lie about the ratings for his SOTU? First, why is that important enough to lie about? Second, why lie about something that's so easily fact checked? It's not like this is unusual, he does it all the time. Does he even know he's lying, or does he believe his own BS? And he's president FFS, why the continuing obsession with ratings?
Lastly, if he lies so brazenly all the time on these little things, seemingly without shame or remorse, why should we believe his denials more important matters?
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02-02-2018 09:02 AM |
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Frizzy Owl
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RE: The Trump is not fit to be president thread
Who says you should believe his denials?
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02-02-2018 10:53 AM |
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tanqtonic
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RE: The Trump is not fit to be president thread
easy peasy on why he makes up stuff about the sotu: hes a thin-skinned grandstanding narcissist. duh. even more so than his predecessor. but you knew that already before you asked that somewhat rhetorical question.
(This post was last modified: 02-02-2018 12:18 PM by tanqtonic.)
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02-02-2018 12:16 PM |
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Fort Bend Owl
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RE: The Trump is not fit to be president thread
Dow way down today as the stock market is headed for its worst week in 2 years. I guess the stock market isn't impressed by the memo.
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02-02-2018 02:56 PM |
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OptimisticOwl
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RE: The Trump is not fit to be president thread
(02-02-2018 02:56 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote: Dow way down today as the stock market is headed for its worst week in 2 years. I guess the stock market isn't impressed by the memo.
According to Wolf Blitzer on CNN, the drop is fueled by the rise in wages, bringing inflation worries that might culminate in interest rate increases.
https://hotair.com/archives/2018/02/02/b...0000-jobs/
"Over the year, average hourly earnings have risen by 75 cents, or 2.9 percent."
It seems that there is no silver lining without a dark cloud.
(This post was last modified: 02-02-2018 04:36 PM by OptimisticOwl.)
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02-02-2018 04:20 PM |
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JustAnotherAustinOwlStill
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RE: The Trump is not fit to be president thread
It seems I owe The Donald an apology for questioning his fitness. Yes, he didn't actually do it, but he assures us he would have run into the school, even if he was unarmed, even with his bone spurs. He's like the Chuck Norris of presidents. A truly courageous man.
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02-27-2018 02:38 PM |
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