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G5 has no regrets
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McKinney Offline
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Post: #31
RE: G5 has no regrets
(01-22-2018 09:11 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  It's not the same, because a science lab is clearly a component of the academic mission, whereas the football team isn't. It's therefore reasonable to expect all students, even those whose major will never bring them to the Science building, to kick in for the former. But not the latter.

Football or any other intercollegiate sport is precisely the kind of peripheral/tangential activity that should be paid for with user fees.
(01-22-2018 09:16 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  This.

Its certainly easier for an English major to access a Biology class than it is for a non-athletic student (or non-traditional student) to access most of the benefits of football (or athletics period).

While I don't disagree with that sentiment, you have to realize that UMass is a region of the country one of the largest numbers of D3 schools to choose from. If students don't want to financially support the expenses required for D1 sports there are plenty of options.

[Image: NCAA_Division_3_football_map.gif]
(This post was last modified: 01-22-2018 09:57 PM by McKinney.)
01-22-2018 09:34 PM
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arkstfan Away
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Post: #32
RE: G5 has no regrets
I'm OK with reasonable athletic fees, it is after all an amenity but there has to be a limit. $100 a semester not a big deal. $300? That's pushing it. $500? Come on.
01-22-2018 09:40 PM
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McKinney Offline
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Post: #33
RE: G5 has no regrets
(01-22-2018 05:00 PM)McKinney Wrote:  To add on to that... finances don't seem to be a problem. A study by the Pioneer Institute's states that student fees at the University of Massachusetts have increased from $6.662M in FY2004 to $8.151M in FY2015. And although PI (a right-wing think tank that's been in the center of several scandals in Massachusetts) attempts to criticize the athletic department's "out of control finances", that's an increase less than ******* inflation (which would be $8.51M). Additionally, those fees when spread out among our 30,037 students at Amherst (Fall 2016 most recent available data) come to ~$270 or about 0.8% of the cost of attendance for in-state students and 0.5% for out-of-state students. While the cost of D1 athletics is currently not financed by the system, with 74,496 students in the system we could potentially drop that number to ~$100.

I have to make a correction. In 2004 our enrollment was 24,628 meaning the athletic support per capita was $270 in 2004 dollars ($350 in 2017 dollars). Due to the fact that the university has grown, the athletic fee has been kept at the same nominal dollar value and cut 23% ($80) in real dollar value. I have to give credit to our athletic department for that feat.
01-22-2018 09:51 PM
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bullet Offline
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Post: #34
RE: G5 has no regrets
(01-22-2018 02:20 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-22-2018 12:51 PM)bullet Wrote:  Georgia Southern is one of the few recent moveups that I thought made sense. They don't have pro competition. They are a decent sized school in a good sized growing state. They had success at FCS. There's nobody else in the southern half of the state. They are in a really good area for talent. And there is really only one other school that is competition for fans in their area-UGA. Georgia Tech's appeal is fairly limited since it is much smaller and historically used to be pretty much just an engineering school.

All the rest sounds good, except for the bolded part. That's like me being locked in a cage with a 900-pound gorilla, and someone on the outside saying "well, you should be optimistic, because there really is only one other creature in that cage you have to compete with to get out" ... 07-coffee3

Well you could be in Alabama with Alabama, Auburn and 2 other FBS schools. Or North Carolina with 4 P5 and 2 other FBS schools. Or Louisiana with 1 P5 and 2 other FBS schools. And its not like Georgia St. where Georgia Tech is about a mile away and they even shared a dorm for a while and UGA is about an hour away.
01-23-2018 12:53 AM
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ColKurtz Offline
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Post: #35
RE: G5 has no regrets
(01-22-2018 09:40 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  I'm OK with reasonable athletic fees, it is after all an amenity but there has to be a limit. $100 a semester not a big deal. $300? That's pushing it. $500? Come on.

$500? Dream on.

"A few examples help to illustrate the point. Public schools playing at the Division II level without a football program have the lowest costs. (All costs are measured in 2013 dollars.) With 1,000 students, their per-student costs for athletics are about $2,500. If they have more than 3,000 students, their per-student costs fall to around $1,000."

"For public schools playing FBS football, the costs are much higher, but so too are the numbers of students. At 10,000 students the per-student costs are around $4,400; at 20,000 students the costs are about $2,600; and for a truly large state school with 40,000 students, the costs fall to just over $1,500"

This was 2013 costs. Going out on a very short limb and predicting they haven't gone down.

https://www.jamesgmartin.center/2015/12/...ge-sports/
01-23-2018 01:26 AM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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Post: #36
RE: G5 has no regrets
(01-22-2018 09:40 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  I'm OK with reasonable athletic fees, it is after all an amenity but there has to be a limit. $100 a semester not a big deal. $300? That's pushing it. $500? Come on.

Many G5 schools charge more than 500 a year per student. Just for athletics. And that's before the hidden charges (such as lost tuition due to scholarships, instate waivers for tuition, etc.) are taken into account.

Some schools charge more than a grand a year per student.

Its getting out of hand. Asking a 30 year old working mom who is getting a nursing degree at night to borrow 4 grand to get a BS in Nursing so the school can pay a million bucks to a head football coach and 250,000 to a couple of Assistant Coaches is insane.

And while revenues have been flat or declining at many schools, some schools continue to pour ever increasing amounts of money into athletics (mainly football) year, after year, after year, after year....with little accountability to the people paying for it.

BTW, Arkansas State isn't one of the worst offenders. Not really calling out Arkansas State.
(This post was last modified: 01-23-2018 01:36 AM by Tom in Lazybrook.)
01-23-2018 01:35 AM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #37
RE: G5 has no regrets
(01-23-2018 01:26 AM)ColKurtz Wrote:  
(01-22-2018 09:40 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  I'm OK with reasonable athletic fees, it is after all an amenity but there has to be a limit. $100 a semester not a big deal. $300? That's pushing it. $500? Come on.

$500? Dream on.

"A few examples help to illustrate the point. Public schools playing at the Division II level without a football program have the lowest costs. (All costs are measured in 2013 dollars.) With 1,000 students, their per-student costs for athletics are about $2,500. If they have more than 3,000 students, their per-student costs fall to around $1,000."

"For public schools playing FBS football, the costs are much higher, but so too are the numbers of students. At 10,000 students the per-student costs are around $4,400; at 20,000 students the costs are about $2,600; and for a truly large state school with 40,000 students, the costs fall to just over $1,500"

This was 2013 costs. Going out on a very short limb and predicting they haven't gone down.

https://www.jamesgmartin.center/2015/12/...ge-sports/

Thats the athletic budget divided by the number of students. Its doesnt count offsetting revenue from ticket sales, donations, parking, concessions, conference revenue distributions, sponsorships, naming rights, ect. At the D3, D2, and FCS level--there probably isnt much difference between the athletic budget and the net cost to the students. At the FBS level there is a significant revenue offset.
(This post was last modified: 01-23-2018 01:52 AM by Attackcoog.)
01-23-2018 01:50 AM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #38
RE: G5 has no regrets
Fans get lost in the accounting.

What is a budget anyways?

-Revenues coming into a university (TV, Tickets, Donations, Marketing).
-Accounting line items to inflate expenditure (scholarships, band expenses).
-Capital expenditures financed over a period of years.
-Actual costs paid by the university (salaries, equipment, gameday)

All of this is added up to come up with the 30 million budget number you'll see at a G5 school but the real cash that has to be paid out is in the 10-12 million range.

A 20,000 student school with an annual 1,000 dollar a year student fee that brings in 20,000,000 million dollars. Of the 20 mill only about 8 mill is going to athletics. Then only 4 million of actual cash is going to the football program.

If the football program is clearing 5 million in revenue while spending 4 million that school is turning a profit. Football may not be bringing in enough money to pay for the entire athletic department like it does in a P5 but the investment is recouped.

The FCS program is spending 3.25 million while pulling in 1.25 million of revenue. That is why you aren't seeing universities drop down.

With the G5 salaries I don't think you'll see too many of them above the 1-2 million range because it starts to eat into the bottom line. They'll start a coach out at 1 million, raise him to 2 million if he wins the conference championship and once he leaves bring the next guy in at 1 million per year.

What you've seen in recent years out of the MAC/CUSA/SBC is a move to a MWC type salary structure with some latitude to bumping guys up for conference titles or CFP appearances.

P5's have been chasing higher salaries but outside of the very elite programs even they are backing down on cost, willing to hang back in the 2-3 million range because they won't get a 7-8 million dollar revenue bump to justify a 10 million dollar salary. Only the very elite coaches will be getting that kind of money.
01-23-2018 02:03 AM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #39
RE: G5 has no regrets
The salary structure in college football is starting to become a pyramid.

http://www.coacheshotseat.com/CFBCoachesSalaries.htm

Number of CFB coaches who make or exceed this salary level.

10 million (1)
9 million (2)
8 million (2)
7 million (3)
6 million (5)
5 million (10)
4 million (24)
3 million (50)
2 million (69)
1 million (91)

Only 4 other coaches in CFB make within 5 million dollars of Nick Saban. The days of P5 saying they are serious by getting within 1 million of the highest paid coach are over.

A lot of P5's are saying that even 4 million is too much unless the guy has delivered a conference title or something.
01-23-2018 02:19 AM
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templefootballfan Offline
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Post: #40
RE: G5 has no regrets
Kitton right, when I saw my daughter student fee's
I was like, what I'm buying this FB team
when it was explained to me what the fee's covered
i didn't have a promblem
she been out 6 yrs, we still talk BGSU FB, she took me to bowl game
we follow, BB, Hockey, rugby, she sent me pictures of her at games for xmass
01-23-2018 04:39 AM
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