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LaSalle rumor
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #31
RE: LaSalle rumor
The fact is unless they're killing it in the Director's Cup as an overall athletic program, those four are close to if not total freeloaders that are dragging down what is otherwise a really good conference.
(This post was last modified: 01-28-2018 05:35 PM by _C2_.)
01-28-2018 03:34 PM
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LostInSpace Offline
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Post: #32
RE: LaSalle rumor
(01-28-2018 03:32 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(01-28-2018 02:11 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(01-28-2018 09:11 AM)zibby Wrote:  Duquesne, Fordham, La Salle and St Bonaquitter should all go to a less competitive conference.

And you've kind of hit on the whole issue in the A-10. I'd leave the Bonnies out of it though.

Duquesne hasn't been to the dance since 1977, even though they have played in a conference with multiple bids forever. Fordham has never gone to the NCAA's as an A-10 member. LaSalle did go once (and made the sweet 16). The Bonnies....the Bonnies..are actually more competitive.

I really wish that we could have switched Valpo for Duquesne, dropped Fordham for Siena or Hofstra etc. But that's not how conferences work. You can't just break conferences apart and put them back together again the way you'd like to.

I don't see any problem with conferences setting criteria for membership. That if you don't meet x, y and z criteria your membership is under review.

The A10 has explicit criteria for men’s basketball regarding minimum budget size, number of coaches, etc. La Salle complies with those criteria. La Salle’s “arena” is an issue that the A10 office has periodically encouraged La Salle to address while knowing that La Salle doesn’t have the money to do anything other than put a little lipstick on that particular pig.

As for kicking full members out, that’s just not how conferences operate.
01-28-2018 04:00 PM
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Cyniclone Offline
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Post: #33
RE: LaSalle rumor
(01-27-2018 10:40 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
(01-27-2018 07:09 PM)MKPitt Wrote:  
(01-27-2018 05:59 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
(01-27-2018 05:47 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  
(01-27-2018 03:28 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  If this happens and LaSalle ends up somewhere else does that open up a slot in the A10 for Old Dominion?

Normally I wouldn't think a university which has all of its sports in a G5 conference would move out of a G5 and put its sports into a non-FB conference. It has to be a special case.

BYU to the WCC so BYU can go independent and sell its football TV rights.
UConn to the BE considered because of MSG and rivalries.

With VCU, GMU and Richmond all in the A10 I could see where ODU would consider a move there, especially with the next CUSA school 6 hours away and the lack of national TV deal with CUSA.

Being an FB Indy in the east is becoming more viable with Army, UMass and Liberty all independent.

There are people on the ODU board that would jump out of their skin to throw themselves at a deal like that, and it's understandable. But ODU approached the A-10 when it appeared that the CAA was about to destabilize a few years ago and were told thanks but not thanks. I swear on a stack of AP Style books that this story was published, but the original piece about VCU and George Mason being A-10 targets noted that ODU wasn't a consideration out of fear that they'd elevate their football to FBS and become a flight risk (oddly enough, if the story about the A-10 turning ODU down is true, they ended up being part of the impetus for a move up themselves).

But even if the A-10 did an about-face, an FBS indy schedule isn't easy to build by any stretch, even taking into account the presence of Eastern indy programs. The CUSA, warts and all, is still more stable than football independence as of now and I think that ultimately informs ODU's decision making.
Should not ODU want the American now? The A-10 is not exactly an upcame move even if VCU and George Mason have done it?

The A-10 is leaps and bounds ahead of C-USA in basketball. ODU may choose to stay in C-USA if they ever were invited to the A-10 but that’s solely because of football. For other sports, it would be a no-brainer move for them.
My point seems to have been missed. ODU should vastly prefer the AAC over the A-10, as it gives better competition for its both its major sports. The A-10 should be totally off ODU's radar.

For sure but that's not an option as it stands today. If the AAC loses an odd number of schools then it's possible but not certain, because there's plenty of competition for whatever spots might be available.

I don't think the A-10 is much of an option either because basketball conferences aren't as hung up on even numbers, they've shown no interest in adding a school with FBS football and they're more likely to go back to their roots (Northeast private) for a future member. But a conference that has rivals VCU, Richmond and George Mason along wth regional foes in GW and Davidson would at least rate a tire-kicking if the circumstances allowed and they could make the football work.
01-28-2018 04:02 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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Post: #34
RE: LaSalle rumor
(01-28-2018 04:02 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  
(01-27-2018 10:40 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
(01-27-2018 07:09 PM)MKPitt Wrote:  
(01-27-2018 05:59 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
(01-27-2018 05:47 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  There are people on the ODU board that would jump out of their skin to throw themselves at a deal like that, and it's understandable. But ODU approached the A-10 when it appeared that the CAA was about to destabilize a few years ago and were told thanks but not thanks. I swear on a stack of AP Style books that this story was published, but the original piece about VCU and George Mason being A-10 targets noted that ODU wasn't a consideration out of fear that they'd elevate their football to FBS and become a flight risk (oddly enough, if the story about the A-10 turning ODU down is true, they ended up being part of the impetus for a move up themselves).

But even if the A-10 did an about-face, an FBS indy schedule isn't easy to build by any stretch, even taking into account the presence of Eastern indy programs. The CUSA, warts and all, is still more stable than football independence as of now and I think that ultimately informs ODU's decision making.
Should not ODU want the American now? The A-10 is not exactly an upcame move even if VCU and George Mason have done it?

The A-10 is leaps and bounds ahead of C-USA in basketball. ODU may choose to stay in C-USA if they ever were invited to the A-10 but that’s solely because of football. For other sports, it would be a no-brainer move for them.
My point seems to have been missed. ODU should vastly prefer the AAC over the A-10, as it gives better competition for its both its major sports. The A-10 should be totally off ODU's radar.

For sure but that's not an option as it stands today. If the AAC loses an odd number of schools then it's possible but not certain, because there's plenty of competition for whatever spots might be available.

I don't think the A-10 is much of an option either because basketball conferences aren't as hung up on even numbers, they've shown no interest in adding a school with FBS football and they're more likely to go back to their roots (Northeast private) for a future member. But a conference that has rivals VCU, Richmond and George Mason along wth regional foes in GW and Davidson would at least rate a tire-kicking if the circumstances allowed and they could make the football work.

There is zero interest at GW in FBS. Any school with plans for FBS has pretty much removed themselves from consideration from the league. The A10 was lucky to dump their FCS league onto the CAA and wants no part of the additional chaos that FBS requires. Besides, while many of our schools (La Salle is an exception), are wealthy schools, most of our schools are private schools with relatively small undergraduate enrollments for FBS.


Here are our undergrad numbers

Davidson - 1950
Dayton - 8095
Duquesne - 5000
Fordham - 9200
George Mason - 24,000
GW - 11,200
LaSalle - 3100
UMass - 23,000
URI - 15,000
Richmond - 3052
SBU - 1700
SJU - 4800
SLU - 9000
VCU - 24,000

There are exactly four schools that have more than 15k undergraduates. All of them are public schools.

URI (FCS) - loses 20 million a year on athletics
UMass (FBS) - loses 34 million a year on athletics (2nd worst loss in all of FBS)
VCU (no football) - loses 20 million a year on athletics
GMU (no football) - loses 22 million a year on athletics

Duquesne plays a few miles from P5 Pitt, GW plays 10 miles from P5 Maryland, GMU is also in the P5 Maryland market, LaSalle and SJU have Temple and Rutgers nearby (and more importantly Penn State to compete with). Davidson is in the same market as a poorly performing G5.

And private schools...traditionally suck at getting casual fans (yes there are a few exceptions). Most people in our communities didn't go there, can't afford to send their kids there either.

My guess is that the private schools have similar losses to the public schools listed above. Our schools aren't big enough, are already expensive, dont have a lot of students that expect football to be an integral part of college, aren't in areas where football ls really that important, and ..... many of our schools already have decent brand names. In GW's case, we wouldn't pass Georgetown no matter how much money we spent. We're maxing out in athletics in the A-10 as it is as far as return goes.
(This post was last modified: 01-28-2018 04:52 PM by Tom in Lazybrook.)
01-28-2018 04:35 PM
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IWokeUpLikeThis Offline
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Post: #35
RE: LaSalle rumor
(01-28-2018 02:11 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(01-28-2018 09:11 AM)zibby Wrote:  Duquesne, Fordham, La Salle and St Bonaquitter should all go to a less competitive conference.

And you've kind of hit on the whole issue in the A-10. I'd leave the Bonnies out of it though.

Duquesne hasn't been to the dance since 1977, even though they have played in a conference with multiple bids forever. Fordham has never gone to the NCAA's as an A-10 member. LaSalle did go once (and made the sweet 16). The Bonnies....the Bonnies..are actually more competitive.

I really wish that we could have switched Valpo for Duquesne, dropped Fordham for Siena or Hofstra etc. But that's not how conferences work. You can't just break conferences apart and put them back together again the way you'd like to.

Valpo plays in a HS gym and their success is still entirely on the shoulders of the now-departed Drew family. They’re the worst team in their league this year. I’d switch Duquesne and Fordham for Siena and Iona (or what about Vermont?).
01-28-2018 04:48 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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Post: #36
RE: LaSalle rumor
(01-28-2018 04:48 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
(01-28-2018 02:11 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(01-28-2018 09:11 AM)zibby Wrote:  Duquesne, Fordham, La Salle and St Bonaquitter should all go to a less competitive conference.

And you've kind of hit on the whole issue in the A-10. I'd leave the Bonnies out of it though.

Duquesne hasn't been to the dance since 1977, even though they have played in a conference with multiple bids forever. Fordham has never gone to the NCAA's as an A-10 member. LaSalle did go once (and made the sweet 16). The Bonnies....the Bonnies..are actually more competitive.

I really wish that we could have switched Valpo for Duquesne, dropped Fordham for Siena or Hofstra etc. But that's not how conferences work. You can't just break conferences apart and put them back together again the way you'd like to.

Valpo plays in a HS gym and their success is still entirely on the shoulders of the now-departed Drew family. They’re the worst team in their league this year. I’d switch Duquesne and Fordham for Siena and Iona (or what about Vermont?).

Quite frankly, I'd just drop them both and be 12 teams.
01-28-2018 04:50 PM
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #37
RE: LaSalle rumor
(01-28-2018 04:00 PM)LostInSpace Wrote:  
(01-28-2018 03:32 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(01-28-2018 02:11 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(01-28-2018 09:11 AM)zibby Wrote:  Duquesne, Fordham, La Salle and St Bonaquitter should all go to a less competitive conference.

And you've kind of hit on the whole issue in the A-10. I'd leave the Bonnies out of it though.

Duquesne hasn't been to the dance since 1977, even though they have played in a conference with multiple bids forever. Fordham has never gone to the NCAA's as an A-10 member. LaSalle did go once (and made the sweet 16). The Bonnies....the Bonnies..are actually more competitive.

I really wish that we could have switched Valpo for Duquesne, dropped Fordham for Siena or Hofstra etc. But that's not how conferences work. You can't just break conferences apart and put them back together again the way you'd like to.

I don't see any problem with conferences setting criteria for membership. That if you don't meet x, y and z criteria your membership is under review.

The A10 has explicit criteria for men’s basketball regarding minimum budget size, number of coaches, etc. La Salle complies with those criteria. La Salle’s “arena” is an issue that the A10 office has periodically encouraged La Salle to address while knowing that La Salle doesn’t have the money to do anything other than put a little lipstick on that particular pig.

As for kicking full members out, that’s just not how conferences operate.

Well they should, you have to carry your weight. And besides, conferences and conference members do that, just not technically. They create new conferences and we've seen this with the creation of the MWC and the only partial merger of the SWC with the Big 8.
01-28-2018 05:34 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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Post: #38
RE: LaSalle rumor
(01-28-2018 05:34 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(01-28-2018 04:00 PM)LostInSpace Wrote:  
(01-28-2018 03:32 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(01-28-2018 02:11 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(01-28-2018 09:11 AM)zibby Wrote:  Duquesne, Fordham, La Salle and St Bonaquitter should all go to a less competitive conference.

And you've kind of hit on the whole issue in the A-10. I'd leave the Bonnies out of it though.

Duquesne hasn't been to the dance since 1977, even though they have played in a conference with multiple bids forever. Fordham has never gone to the NCAA's as an A-10 member. LaSalle did go once (and made the sweet 16). The Bonnies....the Bonnies..are actually more competitive.

I really wish that we could have switched Valpo for Duquesne, dropped Fordham for Siena or Hofstra etc. But that's not how conferences work. You can't just break conferences apart and put them back together again the way you'd like to.

I don't see any problem with conferences setting criteria for membership. That if you don't meet x, y and z criteria your membership is under review.

The A10 has explicit criteria for men’s basketball regarding minimum budget size, number of coaches, etc. La Salle complies with those criteria. La Salle’s “arena” is an issue that the A10 office has periodically encouraged La Salle to address while knowing that La Salle doesn’t have the money to do anything other than put a little lipstick on that particular pig.

As for kicking full members out, that’s just not how conferences operate.

Well they should, you have to carry your weight. And besides, conferences and conference members do that, just not technically. They create new conferences and we've seen this with the creation of the MWC and the only partial merger of the SWC with the Big 8.

Sure, some of the A-10 could split off, but that would cost money. Is a conference that looks like this really that much more valuable than the current lineup? SJU, GWU, GMU, UMass, VCU, Richmond, Davidson, Dayton, and SLU? It wouldn't have much dead weight at the bottom, but it wouldn't be earning more money. Remember the A-10 doesn't split money equally. Name a team that would join the A-10 that would actually be able to earn more money for the league? I can't.
01-28-2018 05:52 PM
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #39
RE: LaSalle rumor
(01-28-2018 04:35 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  There is zero interest at GW in FBS. Any school with plans for FBS has pretty much removed themselves from consideration from the league. The A10 was lucky to dump their FCS league onto the CAA and wants no part of the additional chaos that FBS requires. Besides, while many of our schools (La Salle is an exception), are wealthy schools, most of our schools are private schools with relatively small undergraduate enrollments for FBS.


Here are our undergrad numbers

Davidson - 1950
Dayton - 8095
Duquesne - 5000
Fordham - 9200
George Mason - 24,000
GW - 11,200
LaSalle - 3100
UMass - 23,000
URI - 15,000
Richmond - 3052
SBU - 1700
SJU - 4800
SLU - 9000
VCU - 24,000

There are exactly four schools that have more than 15k undergraduates. All of them are public schools.

URI (FCS) - loses 20 million a year on athletics
UMass (FBS) - loses 34 million a year on athletics (2nd worst loss in all of FBS)
VCU (no football) - loses 20 million a year on athletics
GMU (no football) - loses 22 million a year on athletics

Duquesne plays a few miles from P5 Pitt, GW plays 10 miles from P5 Maryland, GMU is also in the P5 Maryland market, LaSalle and SJU have Temple and Rutgers nearby (and more importantly Penn State to compete with). Davidson is in the same market as a poorly performing G5.

And private schools...traditionally suck at getting casual fans (yes there are a few exceptions). Most people in our communities didn't go there, can't afford to send their kids there either.

My guess is that the private schools have similar losses to the public schools listed above. Our schools aren't big enough, are already expensive, dont have a lot of students that expect football to be an integral part of college, aren't in areas where football ls really that important, and ..... many of our schools already have decent brand names. In GW's case, we wouldn't pass Georgetown no matter how much money we spent. We're maxing out in athletics in the A-10 as it is as far as return goes.

Zero interest? Where would GW find the land for an FBS stadium, RFK? They couldn't be FBS if they wanted to (there's no way they could be interested in playing at RFK).

And yep, I always wanted to say it, Davidson is a high school, my God. Richmond and Bonnie too. I didn't even realize SBU was smaller than Davidson, which I knew was small.
01-28-2018 05:55 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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Post: #40
RE: LaSalle rumor
(01-28-2018 05:55 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(01-28-2018 04:35 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  There is zero interest at GW in FBS. Any school with plans for FBS has pretty much removed themselves from consideration from the league. The A10 was lucky to dump their FCS league onto the CAA and wants no part of the additional chaos that FBS requires. Besides, while many of our schools (La Salle is an exception), are wealthy schools, most of our schools are private schools with relatively small undergraduate enrollments for FBS.


Here are our undergrad numbers

Davidson - 1950
Dayton - 8095
Duquesne - 5000
Fordham - 9200
George Mason - 24,000
GW - 11,200
LaSalle - 3100
UMass - 23,000
URI - 15,000
Richmond - 3052
SBU - 1700
SJU - 4800
SLU - 9000
VCU - 24,000

There are exactly four schools that have more than 15k undergraduates. All of them are public schools.

URI (FCS) - loses 20 million a year on athletics
UMass (FBS) - loses 34 million a year on athletics (2nd worst loss in all of FBS)
VCU (no football) - loses 20 million a year on athletics
GMU (no football) - loses 22 million a year on athletics

Duquesne plays a few miles from P5 Pitt, GW plays 10 miles from P5 Maryland, GMU is also in the P5 Maryland market, LaSalle and SJU have Temple and Rutgers nearby (and more importantly Penn State to compete with). Davidson is in the same market as a poorly performing G5.

And private schools...traditionally suck at getting casual fans (yes there are a few exceptions). Most people in our communities didn't go there, can't afford to send their kids there either.

My guess is that the private schools have similar losses to the public schools listed above. Our schools aren't big enough, are already expensive, dont have a lot of students that expect football to be an integral part of college, aren't in areas where football ls really that important, and ..... many of our schools already have decent brand names. In GW's case, we wouldn't pass Georgetown no matter how much money we spent. We're maxing out in athletics in the A-10 as it is as far as return goes.

Zero interest? Where would GW find the land for an FBS stadium, RFK? They couldn't be FBS if they wanted to (there's no way they could be interested in playing at RFK).

And yep, I always wanted to say it, Davidson is a high school, my God. Richmond and Bonnie too. I didn't even realize SBU was smaller than Davidson, which I knew was small.

GW actually had football and played at RFK. Actually played in a Sun Bowl within a few years of the program being dropped. No one cared. I think it was more embarrassment at the non-existent crowds than the actual cost of it.

Davidson and Richmond are fantastically wealthy places. Davidson has 716 million bucks in endowment for a school that has less than 2000 students. That works out to 358,000 in endowment per student. Richmond...has an endowment of 2.2 Billion, which works out to 315,000 per student. The Bonnies and Explorers....are small and relatively poor.

Here are the 'wealthy A-10 schools'

Davidson 716 million
Richmond 2.2 Billion
GWU 1.8 Billion
Dayton 525 million
Fordham 750 million
SLU 1 Billion
VCU 1.6 Billion (much of that medical school related)

These are schools that have more money than most AAC schools. 3 of them have more money than any AAC school. GW and Richmond have more money than any Big East school too. And they have smaller student bases too, so the money can go further. Endowment isn't everything, but it gives these schools a lot more leeway than say, LaSalle, which is operating with a 50 million dollar endowment.
(This post was last modified: 01-28-2018 06:14 PM by Tom in Lazybrook.)
01-28-2018 06:03 PM
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