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Pac-12 may move to 20 conf. games in hoops
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Wedge Offline
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Pac-12 may move to 20 conf. games in hoops
The ACC and Big Ten are already going to make this move in the near future...

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/01/30/p...more-sense
Quote:Deputy commissioner Jamie Zaninovich indicated recently that he’s “leaning” in favor of the change but wants to learn more.

Arizona coach Sean Miller, who works closely with the conference on issues of basketball strategy, told the Hotline that he’s a proponent of the move from 18 to 20.

The move would make sense financially overall. Some might not be happy that it would require each team to make an additional long road trip for one game only -- because each team would be adding one home game and one road game. But that doesn't seem like a deal-breaker.
(This post was last modified: 01-30-2018 01:51 PM by Wedge.)
01-30-2018 01:49 PM
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RE: Pac-12 may move to 20 conf. games in hoops
They should just move to 22 and do a full round robin.
01-30-2018 02:26 PM
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RE: Pac-12 may move to 20 conf. games in hoops
(01-30-2018 02:26 PM)ChrisLords Wrote:  They should just move to 22 and do a full round robin.

Agreed. I think the PAC, XII, and Big East should do full round-robins at 22, 18, and 18 games, respectively. The ACC, B1G, and SEC should do 22 games with 8 home-homes and 6 one-offs.
01-30-2018 02:47 PM
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Wedge Offline
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RE: Pac-12 may move to 20 conf. games in hoops
I don't see anyone considering more than 20 conference games until there are at least a few years of data to show whether playing 20 instead of 18 or 16 has an adverse effect on the conference's number of NCAA tournament at-large bids.

Even at 20 conference games, each conference is going to want to see whether the benefits that are assumed are confirmed with experience. What is attendance going to be like for a conference game played the week after Thanksgiving versus one played later in the season? To make room for the extra conference games, are teams going to drop two of their least attractive non-conference matchups, or will they drop a more challenging non-con game in order to make the overall schedule difficulty more to the liking of the head coach?
01-30-2018 02:56 PM
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RE: Pac-12 may move to 20 conf. games in hoops
My opinion...

As long as your conference isn't too big then I would like to see every league allow for a double round robin...home and home.

Then I would cut the number of conference tournament participants to maybe 4.
01-30-2018 02:58 PM
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RE: Pac-12 may move to 20 conf. games in hoops
(01-30-2018 02:56 PM)Wedge Wrote:  I don't see anyone considering more than 20 conference games until there are at least a few years of data to show whether playing 20 instead of 18 or 16 has an adverse effect on the conference's number of NCAA tournament at-large bids.

Even at 20 conference games, each conference is going to want to see whether the benefits that are assumed are confirmed with experience. What is attendance going to be like for a conference game played the week after Thanksgiving versus one played later in the season? To make room for the extra conference games, are teams going to drop two of their least attractive non-conference matchups, or will they drop a more challenging non-con game in order to make the overall schedule difficulty more to the liking of the head coach?

A few points if I may.

1. I think a round robin within your division and a game against all other conference members is plenty. If we are going to increase the inventory of P games by two let us do it by playing OOC games. We need more of those in basketball. These challenge games in mid conference season can certainly suffice for 1 of them. There is ample room in basketball to have challenges between multiple conferences.

2. Increasing conference games is a silent way of putting the squeeze on smaller programs. If all P conferences do this that means less revenue for the G5's and basketball only conferences.

3. No Conference is going to jump on this until they are paid to do so. The upcoming contract renewals starting in 2023-4 are the impetus for this. People want to know when the SEC will move to 9 conference games in football. The answer is when we get a contract boost to do so. The same thing is going on here.

So this is a positive direction for the P schools to take and the challenge filled the basketball arenas of the Big 12 and SEC last week. Commercially it was a win / win. More of that would be a good thing for the sport. But the downside is always more limited competition against smaller basketball programs and in basketball that's a more viable matter than in football.
(This post was last modified: 01-30-2018 03:16 PM by JRsec.)
01-30-2018 03:14 PM
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Wedge Offline
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RE: Pac-12 may move to 20 conf. games in hoops
(01-30-2018 03:14 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-30-2018 02:56 PM)Wedge Wrote:  I don't see anyone considering more than 20 conference games until there are at least a few years of data to show whether playing 20 instead of 18 or 16 has an adverse effect on the conference's number of NCAA tournament at-large bids.

Even at 20 conference games, each conference is going to want to see whether the benefits that are assumed are confirmed with experience. What is attendance going to be like for a conference game played the week after Thanksgiving versus one played later in the season? To make room for the extra conference games, are teams going to drop two of their least attractive non-conference matchups, or will they drop a more challenging non-con game in order to make the overall schedule difficulty more to the liking of the head coach?

A few points if I may.

1. I think a round robin within your division and a game against all other conference members is plenty. If we are going to increase the inventory of P games by two let us do it by playing OOC games. We need more of those in basketball. These challenge games in mid conference season can certainly suffice for 1 of them. There is ample room in basketball to have challenges between multiple conferences.

Some coaches resist being part of those inter-conference challenges -- I think Michigan State has never agreed to play in the Big Ten/Big East challenge, for example. I suspect that a big part of the resistance is turning over control of the dates and matchups to the conference offices (or the TV guys) rather than the coaches picking who they want to play and where.

(01-30-2018 03:14 PM)JRsec Wrote:  2. Increasing conference games is a silent way of putting the squeeze on smaller programs. If all P conferences do this that means less revenue for the G5's and basketball only conferences.


It's putting a squeeze on them because of money. It's a reaction to constantly-escalating fees that have to be paid for "buy games". Those fees aren't nearly as much as for football, but even at $50,000-150,000 per game, if those games don't sell many tickets above and beyond your season ticket holders, then I can see why ADs want to pay for as few of them as possible.

(01-30-2018 03:14 PM)JRsec Wrote:  3. No Conference is going to jump on this until they are paid to do so. The upcoming contract renewals starting in 2023-4 are the impetus for this. People want to know when the SEC will move to 9 conference games in football. The answer is when we get a contract boost to do so. The same thing is going on here.

The Big Ten isn't being paid extra to do this, and neither is the Pac-12. The ACC agreed to do this as part of getting their conference network started, but they're in a different position because basketball is a greater percentage of their TV value than it is for the other P5 conferences.
01-30-2018 04:29 PM
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RE: Pac-12 may move to 20 conf. games in hoops
(01-30-2018 04:29 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(01-30-2018 03:14 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-30-2018 02:56 PM)Wedge Wrote:  I don't see anyone considering more than 20 conference games until there are at least a few years of data to show whether playing 20 instead of 18 or 16 has an adverse effect on the conference's number of NCAA tournament at-large bids.

Even at 20 conference games, each conference is going to want to see whether the benefits that are assumed are confirmed with experience. What is attendance going to be like for a conference game played the week after Thanksgiving versus one played later in the season? To make room for the extra conference games, are teams going to drop two of their least attractive non-conference matchups, or will they drop a more challenging non-con game in order to make the overall schedule difficulty more to the liking of the head coach?

A few points if I may.

1. I think a round robin within your division and a game against all other conference members is plenty. If we are going to increase the inventory of P games by two let us do it by playing OOC games. We need more of those in basketball. These challenge games in mid conference season can certainly suffice for 1 of them. There is ample room in basketball to have challenges between multiple conferences.

Some coaches resist being part of those inter-conference challenges -- I think Michigan State has never agreed to play in the Big Ten/Big East challenge, for example. I suspect that a big part of the resistance is turning over control of the dates and matchups to the conference offices (or the TV guys) rather than the coaches picking who they want to play and where.

(01-30-2018 03:14 PM)JRsec Wrote:  2. Increasing conference games is a silent way of putting the squeeze on smaller programs. If all P conferences do this that means less revenue for the G5's and basketball only conferences.


It's putting a squeeze on them because of money. It's a reaction to constantly-escalating fees that have to be paid for "buy games". Those fees aren't nearly as much as for football, but even at $50,000-150,000 per game, if those games don't sell many tickets above and beyond your season ticket holders, then I can see why ADs want to pay for as few of them as possible.

(01-30-2018 03:14 PM)JRsec Wrote:  3. No Conference is going to jump on this until they are paid to do so. The upcoming contract renewals starting in 2023-4 are the impetus for this. People want to know when the SEC will move to 9 conference games in football. The answer is when we get a contract boost to do so. The same thing is going on here.

The Big Ten isn't being paid extra to do this, and neither is the Pac-12. The ACC agreed to do this as part of getting their conference network started, but they're in a different position because basketball is a greater percentage of their TV value than it is for the other P5 conferences.

The Big 10 made their move and then got compensated in the last contract set of contracts. They'll get another boost for hoops when that contract is up with the current carrier, I think it may be CBS.

As for Izzo's control needs I wonder how much longer that will be a factor. If the PAC hasn't demanded remuneration for it is yet another sign of your leadership's incompetence.
(This post was last modified: 01-30-2018 04:34 PM by JRsec.)
01-30-2018 04:32 PM
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RE: Pac-12 may move to 20 conf. games in hoops
(01-30-2018 04:32 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-30-2018 04:29 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(01-30-2018 03:14 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-30-2018 02:56 PM)Wedge Wrote:  I don't see anyone considering more than 20 conference games until there are at least a few years of data to show whether playing 20 instead of 18 or 16 has an adverse effect on the conference's number of NCAA tournament at-large bids.

Even at 20 conference games, each conference is going to want to see whether the benefits that are assumed are confirmed with experience. What is attendance going to be like for a conference game played the week after Thanksgiving versus one played later in the season? To make room for the extra conference games, are teams going to drop two of their least attractive non-conference matchups, or will they drop a more challenging non-con game in order to make the overall schedule difficulty more to the liking of the head coach?

A few points if I may.

1. I think a round robin within your division and a game against all other conference members is plenty. If we are going to increase the inventory of P games by two let us do it by playing OOC games. We need more of those in basketball. These challenge games in mid conference season can certainly suffice for 1 of them. There is ample room in basketball to have challenges between multiple conferences.

Some coaches resist being part of those inter-conference challenges -- I think Michigan State has never agreed to play in the Big Ten/Big East challenge, for example. I suspect that a big part of the resistance is turning over control of the dates and matchups to the conference offices (or the TV guys) rather than the coaches picking who they want to play and where.

(01-30-2018 03:14 PM)JRsec Wrote:  2. Increasing conference games is a silent way of putting the squeeze on smaller programs. If all P conferences do this that means less revenue for the G5's and basketball only conferences.


It's putting a squeeze on them because of money. It's a reaction to constantly-escalating fees that have to be paid for "buy games". Those fees aren't nearly as much as for football, but even at $50,000-150,000 per game, if those games don't sell many tickets above and beyond your season ticket holders, then I can see why ADs want to pay for as few of them as possible.

(01-30-2018 03:14 PM)JRsec Wrote:  3. No Conference is going to jump on this until they are paid to do so. The upcoming contract renewals starting in 2023-4 are the impetus for this. People want to know when the SEC will move to 9 conference games in football. The answer is when we get a contract boost to do so. The same thing is going on here.

The Big Ten isn't being paid extra to do this, and neither is the Pac-12. The ACC agreed to do this as part of getting their conference network started, but they're in a different position because basketball is a greater percentage of their TV value than it is for the other P5 conferences.

The Big 10 made their move and then got compensated in the last contract set of contracts. They'll get another boost for hoops when that contract is up with the current carrier, I think it may be CBS.

As for Izzo's control needs I wonder how much longer that will be a factor. If the PAC hasn't demanded remuneration for it is yet another sign of your leadership's incompetence.

Tennis Larry (I think a USC fan gets credit for that name) does leave a lot to be desired. But in this case, the Pac-12 hasn't even agreed internally to do this, and I'm not sure there would be much point in demanding extra money for just basketball and just the last two or three seasons of the TV contract.

As for the Big Ten, they announced their current set of TV deals in June 2016 and announced the future 20-game basketball conference schedule in October 2017, so they're not getting paid more for it, either.
(This post was last modified: 01-30-2018 04:50 PM by Wedge.)
01-30-2018 04:46 PM
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RE: Pac-12 may move to 20 conf. games in hoops
(01-30-2018 04:46 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(01-30-2018 04:32 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-30-2018 04:29 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(01-30-2018 03:14 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-30-2018 02:56 PM)Wedge Wrote:  I don't see anyone considering more than 20 conference games until there are at least a few years of data to show whether playing 20 instead of 18 or 16 has an adverse effect on the conference's number of NCAA tournament at-large bids.

Even at 20 conference games, each conference is going to want to see whether the benefits that are assumed are confirmed with experience. What is attendance going to be like for a conference game played the week after Thanksgiving versus one played later in the season? To make room for the extra conference games, are teams going to drop two of their least attractive non-conference matchups, or will they drop a more challenging non-con game in order to make the overall schedule difficulty more to the liking of the head coach?

A few points if I may.

1. I think a round robin within your division and a game against all other conference members is plenty. If we are going to increase the inventory of P games by two let us do it by playing OOC games. We need more of those in basketball. These challenge games in mid conference season can certainly suffice for 1 of them. There is ample room in basketball to have challenges between multiple conferences.

Some coaches resist being part of those inter-conference challenges -- I think Michigan State has never agreed to play in the Big Ten/Big East challenge, for example. I suspect that a big part of the resistance is turning over control of the dates and matchups to the conference offices (or the TV guys) rather than the coaches picking who they want to play and where.

(01-30-2018 03:14 PM)JRsec Wrote:  2. Increasing conference games is a silent way of putting the squeeze on smaller programs. If all P conferences do this that means less revenue for the G5's and basketball only conferences.


It's putting a squeeze on them because of money. It's a reaction to constantly-escalating fees that have to be paid for "buy games". Those fees aren't nearly as much as for football, but even at $50,000-150,000 per game, if those games don't sell many tickets above and beyond your season ticket holders, then I can see why ADs want to pay for as few of them as possible.

(01-30-2018 03:14 PM)JRsec Wrote:  3. No Conference is going to jump on this until they are paid to do so. The upcoming contract renewals starting in 2023-4 are the impetus for this. People want to know when the SEC will move to 9 conference games in football. The answer is when we get a contract boost to do so. The same thing is going on here.

The Big Ten isn't being paid extra to do this, and neither is the Pac-12. The ACC agreed to do this as part of getting their conference network started, but they're in a different position because basketball is a greater percentage of their TV value than it is for the other P5 conferences.

The Big 10 made their move and then got compensated in the last contract set of contracts. They'll get another boost for hoops when that contract is up with the current carrier, I think it may be CBS.

As for Izzo's control needs I wonder how much longer that will be a factor. If the PAC hasn't demanded remuneration for it is yet another sign of your leadership's incompetence.

Tennis Larry (I think a USC fan gets credit for that name) does leave a lot to be desired. But in this case, the Pac-12 hasn't even agreed internally to do this, and I'm not sure there would be much point in demanding extra money for just basketball and just the last two or three seasons of the TV contract.

As for the Big Ten, they announced their current set of TV deals in June 2016 and announced the future 20-game basketball conference schedule in October 2017, so they're not getting paid more for it, either.

You don't know what was or wasn't baked into those numbers, and for that matter neither do I for certain. But those kinds of concessions get baked in. Sometimes that is ahead of time, and sometimes it is just after. Why? Because the contracts aren't worth redoing for a couple of basketball games. But the main part of the basketball contract comes up for renewal in a few years.

I can tell you without hesitation the SEC offers nothing extra unless they get paid to do so. It's an intelligent business practice when what you can offer extra is increasingly finite.
01-30-2018 05:43 PM
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RE: Pac-12 may move to 20 conf. games in hoops
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04-24-2018 07:22 PM
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RE: Pac-12 may move to 20 conf. games in hoops
(01-30-2018 04:46 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(01-30-2018 04:32 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-30-2018 04:29 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(01-30-2018 03:14 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-30-2018 02:56 PM)Wedge Wrote:  I don't see anyone considering more than 20 conference games until there are at least a few years of data to show whether playing 20 instead of 18 or 16 has an adverse effect on the conference's number of NCAA tournament at-large bids.

Even at 20 conference games, each conference is going to want to see whether the benefits that are assumed are confirmed with experience. What is attendance going to be like for a conference game played the week after Thanksgiving versus one played later in the season? To make room for the extra conference games, are teams going to drop two of their least attractive non-conference matchups, or will they drop a more challenging non-con game in order to make the overall schedule difficulty more to the liking of the head coach?

A few points if I may.

1. I think a round robin within your division and a game against all other conference members is plenty. If we are going to increase the inventory of P games by two let us do it by playing OOC games. We need more of those in basketball. These challenge games in mid conference season can certainly suffice for 1 of them. There is ample room in basketball to have challenges between multiple conferences.

Some coaches resist being part of those inter-conference challenges -- I think Michigan State has never agreed to play in the Big Ten/Big East challenge, for example. I suspect that a big part of the resistance is turning over control of the dates and matchups to the conference offices (or the TV guys) rather than the coaches picking who they want to play and where.

(01-30-2018 03:14 PM)JRsec Wrote:  2. Increasing conference games is a silent way of putting the squeeze on smaller programs. If all P conferences do this that means less revenue for the G5's and basketball only conferences.


It's putting a squeeze on them because of money. It's a reaction to constantly-escalating fees that have to be paid for "buy games". Those fees aren't nearly as much as for football, but even at $50,000-150,000 per game, if those games don't sell many tickets above and beyond your season ticket holders, then I can see why ADs want to pay for as few of them as possible.

(01-30-2018 03:14 PM)JRsec Wrote:  3. No Conference is going to jump on this until they are paid to do so. The upcoming contract renewals starting in 2023-4 are the impetus for this. People want to know when the SEC will move to 9 conference games in football. The answer is when we get a contract boost to do so. The same thing is going on here.

The Big Ten isn't being paid extra to do this, and neither is the Pac-12. The ACC agreed to do this as part of getting their conference network started, but they're in a different position because basketball is a greater percentage of their TV value than it is for the other P5 conferences.

The Big 10 made their move and then got compensated in the last contract set of contracts. They'll get another boost for hoops when that contract is up with the current carrier, I think it may be CBS.

As for Izzo's control needs I wonder how much longer that will be a factor. If the PAC hasn't demanded remuneration for it is yet another sign of your leadership's incompetence.

Tennis Larry (I think a USC fan gets credit for that name) does leave a lot to be desired. But in this case, the Pac-12 hasn't even agreed internally to do this, and I'm not sure there would be much point in demanding extra money for just basketball and just the last two or three seasons of the TV contract.

As for the Big Ten, they announced their current set of TV deals in June 2016 and announced the future 20-game basketball conference schedule in October 2017, so they're not getting paid more for it, either.

Maybe. Also plausible that B1G agreed to move to that by a certain deadline as part of the deal.

More realistically, I doubt the dollar value difference is substantial and taking two dates off the calendar where you either pay someone to come in or agree to leave campus has its own value away from TV rights payments.
04-25-2018 01:52 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #13
RE: Pac-12 may move to 20 conf. games in hoops
(01-30-2018 02:58 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  My opinion...

As long as your conference isn't too big then I would like to see every league allow for a double round robin...home and home.

Then I would cut the number of conference tournament participants to maybe 4.

If they just played a double round robin in division and played the other members once that could be done with 19 games in a 14 member conference and 16 games in the PAC. The Big 12 is the one that could pull of a double round robin with all members.
04-25-2018 01:57 PM
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RE: Pac-12 may move to 20 conf. games in hoops
If conferences get any larger, we're going to be talking about whether they should play only a single round robin in conference.

When we had a lot of 8-team conferences like the Pac-8 and Big Eight, a double round robin meant 14 conference games. Today, the ACC could play a single round robin and each team would have 14 conference games.
04-30-2018 11:05 AM
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