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U.S. Strikes Killed Scores of Russia Fighters in Syria, Sources Say
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SuperFlyBCat Offline
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Post: #1
U.S. Strikes Killed Scores of Russia Fighters in Syria, Sources Say
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/...s-in-syria

U.S. forces killed scores of Russian mercenaries in Syria last week in what may be the deadliest clash between citizens of the former foes since the Cold War, according to one U.S. official and three Russians familiar with the matter.

More than 200 contract soldiers, mostly Russians fighting on behalf of Syrian leader Bashar al-Assad, died in a failed attack on a base held by U.S. and mainly Kurdish forces in the oil-rich Deir Ezzor region, two of the Russians said. The U.S. official put the death toll in the fighting at about 100, with 200 to 300 injured, but was unable to say how many were Russians.
02-13-2018 04:59 PM
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gdunn Offline
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RE: U.S. Strikes Killed Scores of Russia Fighters in Syria, Sources Say
Oh sh*t this is what'll get Trump impeached.
02-13-2018 05:01 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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RE: U.S. Strikes Killed Scores of Russia Fighters in Syria, Sources Say
Here's my concern. By getting rid of ISIS, we have removed the only obstacle to Iran's gaining a foothold all the way through Iraq and Syria to the Mediterranean. If their goal is to re-establish the ancient Persian Empire as a modern, nuclear-armed country, we have just made their task about 10 times easier. I don't see that as being in our best interests.
02-13-2018 05:07 PM
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DFWMINER Offline
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RE: U.S. Strikes Killed Scores of Russia Fighters in Syria, Sources Say
Isis had to be eliminated. They were pure evil.
02-13-2018 08:18 PM
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Niner National Offline
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RE: U.S. Strikes Killed Scores of Russia Fighters in Syria, Sources Say
(02-13-2018 08:18 PM)DFWMINER Wrote:  Isis had to be eliminated. They were pure evil.

This. Iran may be a threat to the world, but they are a far better option than ISIS growing in strength and influence.
02-13-2018 09:34 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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RE: U.S. Strikes Killed Scores of Russia Fighters in Syria, Sources Say
(02-13-2018 08:18 PM)DFWMINER Wrote:  Isis had to be eliminated. They were pure evil.

Are they more evil than the Iranian regime or Assad's Syria? I'm not sure they are. I'm definitely not sure that the difference is worth losing American lives or limbs. What we now have is Iran and Syria's Russian-backed regime in control and essentially unfettered. I don't see how that's in our better interests than having both of them having to deal with ISIS in the middle. Let them kill each other off would seem to me to have been better. Like when Iraq and Iran had their border war. Neither was powerful enough to put the other away. But that kept them from messing with anybody else on a massive scale. Now there is no offset.

As I've said before, I see three major potential regional conflicts--Eastern Europe, the Middle East, and the China Sea--each with its own regional hegemony--Russia, Iran, and China, respectively. If we can keep each one contained in the region--and for now, nobody really has power projection ability beyond their region--and keep a balance of power so that no hegemony can become dominant, then we will IMO have a successful foreign policy.

Like them or not--and I don't--I think ISIS as an irritant to both Iran and Syria served our purposes.
02-13-2018 09:36 PM
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Attackcoog Offline
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RE: U.S. Strikes Killed Scores of Russia Fighters in Syria, Sources Say
(02-13-2018 04:59 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/...s-in-syria

U.S. forces killed scores of Russian mercenaries in Syria last week in what may be the deadliest clash between citizens of the former foes since the Cold War, according to one U.S. official and three Russians familiar with the matter.

More than 200 contract soldiers, mostly Russians fighting on behalf of Syrian leader Bashar al-Assad, died in a failed attack on a base held by U.S. and mainly Kurdish forces in the oil-rich Deir Ezzor region, two of the Russians said. The U.S. official put the death toll in the fighting at about 100, with 200 to 300 injured, but was unable to say how many were Russians.

They directly attacked our troops and got dead. Not sure why they thought that would be good idea—military or politically.
(This post was last modified: 02-13-2018 10:58 PM by Attackcoog.)
02-13-2018 10:57 PM
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I45owl Offline
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RE: U.S. Strikes Killed Scores of Russia Fighters in Syria, Sources Say
(02-13-2018 09:36 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(02-13-2018 08:18 PM)DFWMINER Wrote:  Isis had to be eliminated. They were pure evil.
Are they more evil than the Iranian regime or Assad's Syria? I'm not sure they are. I'm definitely not sure that the difference is worth losing American lives or limbs. What we now have is Iran and Syria's Russian-backed regime in control and essentially unfettered. I don't see how that's in our better interests than having both of them having to deal with ISIS in the middle. Let them kill each other off would seem to me to have been better. Like when Iraq and Iran had their border war. Neither was powerful enough to put the other away. But that kept them from messing with anybody else on a massive scale. Now there is no offset.
As I've said before, I see three major potential regional conflicts--Eastern Europe, the Middle East, and the China Sea--each with its own regional hegemony--Russia, Iran, and China, respectively. If we can keep each one contained in the region--and for now, nobody really has power projection ability beyond their region--and keep a balance of power so that no hegemony can become dominant, then we will IMO have a successful foreign policy.
Like them or not--and I don't--I think ISIS as an irritant to both Iran and Syria served our purposes.

The best case for handling Syria was to have Iran bogged down in trying to handle ISIS on its own. Perhaps the best case was fragmenting Syria and Iraq into three or more independent states without a land bridge from Lebanon to Iran.

The US was manipulated into assisting the ethnic cleansing of Syria, and it's hard to objectively view this as anything but a resounding success on the part of Assad and his allies.

Consider the following:
  • ISIS was essentially created by Assad releasing Syrian Muslim Brotherhood and allowing them to fuse with remaining al Qaeda in Iraq members
  • ISIS more or less organically grew to be a problem for the west by ramping up terror operations in western countries
  • The timing of Russian involvement is such that it effectively prevented any possibility of invasion by the US
  • Syria created and exacerbated a migration crisis by consolidating opposition and systematically destroying the cities in which they were based
  • Chemical weapons use by the Syrians is strategically unimportant except for the fear that it creates among the population, who can recognize genocidal threats when others may not
  • While ISIS grew, the Syrians spent their time attacking forces backed by the US and Turkey
  • Turkey/Russia relations have grown as Turkey/US relations have soured ... this includes Turkey showing preference to Russian gas pipelines in preference to Qatar lines (at the same time that Russia is worried about pipelines through Ukraine, upon which it is overly dependent)
  • Iranian engagement with ISIS was delayed until it began to get out of hand in Iraq

So, the Syrian goals in the conflict:
  • Retain territorial integrity of the country
  • Shift demographics in Syria in favor of the Alawites and their allies
  • Save the necks of the Assad family
  • Retain benefactors of the regime... Syria isn't very functional without strong allies
  • Instill fear in the Sunni Arab population and repress the Muslim Brotherhood to the point of submission
  • Show to the population that they will not submit to western demands

Iran and Russia are parties that most want stability in Syria, and Iran has further benefited by gaining battlefield experience for Hezbollah, solidifying Syria as a client state dependent on Iran and indebted to it, as well as an unbroken land route from Syria to the Lebanon, not to mention deteriorated relations between the US and Turkey, and ensuring that Turkey will never join the EU.

The US has won two Pyrrhic victories... ISIS is gone, and no US politician finds himself tarnished by what's happened in Syria.

But, what were the US goals going into the conflict again?
02-14-2018 12:57 PM
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I45owl Offline
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RE: U.S. Strikes Killed Scores of Russia Fighters in Syria, Sources Say
At the very least, what I would have liked to see out of the conflict is the same approach the Russians used... when Syria uses chemical weapons, respond by killing as many Hezbollah troops and Iranian advisers as possible... it's probably not worth the risk to try and kill Russians.

But, at the very least, it was a great opportunity to respond to the Beirut barracks bombing in 1983 and Khobar Towers bombing in 1996.
02-14-2018 01:04 PM
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Lush Offline
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RE: U.S. Strikes Killed Scores of Russia Fighters in Syria, Sources Say
am i the only one that thinks a nuclear iran is a rather benign entity? it's probably the safest place for a westerner to visit in the middle east these days. that speaks volumes to me
02-14-2018 01:35 PM
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ECUGrad07 Offline
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RE: U.S. Strikes Killed Scores of Russia Fighters in Syria, Sources Say
Hey Russian mercenaries: play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
02-14-2018 02:59 PM
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SuperFlyBCat Offline
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RE: U.S. Strikes Killed Scores of Russia Fighters in Syria, Sources Say
(02-14-2018 12:57 PM)I45owl Wrote:  
(02-13-2018 09:36 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(02-13-2018 08:18 PM)DFWMINER Wrote:  Isis had to be eliminated. They were pure evil.
Are they more evil than the Iranian regime or Assad's Syria? I'm not sure they are. I'm definitely not sure that the difference is worth losing American lives or limbs. What we now have is Iran and Syria's Russian-backed regime in control and essentially unfettered. I don't see how that's in our better interests than having both of them having to deal with ISIS in the middle. Let them kill each other off would seem to me to have been better. Like when Iraq and Iran had their border war. Neither was powerful enough to put the other away. But that kept them from messing with anybody else on a massive scale. Now there is no offset.
As I've said before, I see three major potential regional conflicts--Eastern Europe, the Middle East, and the China Sea--each with its own regional hegemony--Russia, Iran, and China, respectively. If we can keep each one contained in the region--and for now, nobody really has power projection ability beyond their region--and keep a balance of power so that no hegemony can become dominant, then we will IMO have a successful foreign policy.
Like them or not--and I don't--I think ISIS as an irritant to both Iran and Syria served our purposes.

The best case for handling Syria was to have Iran bogged down in trying to handle ISIS on its own. Perhaps the best case was fragmenting Syria and Iraq into three or more independent states without a land bridge from Lebanon to Iran.

The US was manipulated into assisting the ethnic cleansing of Syria, and it's hard to objectively view this as anything but a resounding success on the part of Assad and his allies.

Consider the following:
  • ISIS was essentially created by Assad releasing Syrian Muslim Brotherhood and allowing them to fuse with remaining al Qaeda in Iraq members
  • ISIS more or less organically grew to be a problem for the west by ramping up terror operations in western countries
  • The timing of Russian involvement is such that it effectively prevented any possibility of invasion by the US
  • Syria created and exacerbated a migration crisis by consolidating opposition and systematically destroying the cities in which they were based
  • Chemical weapons use by the Syrians is strategically unimportant except for the fear that it creates among the population, who can recognize genocidal threats when others may not
  • While ISIS grew, the Syrians spent their time attacking forces backed by the US and Turkey
  • Turkey/Russia relations have grown as Turkey/US relations have soured ... this includes Turkey showing preference to Russian gas pipelines in preference to Qatar lines (at the same time that Russia is worried about pipelines through Ukraine, upon which it is overly dependent)
  • Iranian engagement with ISIS was delayed until it began to get out of hand in Iraq

So, the Syrian goals in the conflict:
  • Retain territorial integrity of the country
  • Shift demographics in Syria in favor of the Alawites and their allies
  • Save the necks of the Assad family
  • Retain benefactors of the regime... Syria isn't very functional without strong allies
  • Instill fear in the Sunni Arab population and repress the Muslim Brotherhood to the point of submission
  • Show to the population that they will not submit to western demands

Iran and Russia are parties that most want stability in Syria, and Iran has further benefited by gaining battlefield experience for Hezbollah, solidifying Syria as a client state dependent on Iran and indebted to it, as well as an unbroken land route from Syria to the Lebanon, not to mention deteriorated relations between the US and Turkey, and ensuring that Turkey will never join the EU.

The US has won two Pyrrhic victories... ISIS is gone, and no US politician finds himself tarnished by what's happened in Syria.

But, what were the US goals going into the conflict again?

Either supporting a reported Qatar, Saudi backed pipeline not the Russian one. Or just doing what the CIA wants to do. Here is a CIA doc from 83'.
https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/...0133-0.pdf
02-14-2018 03:52 PM
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VA49er Offline
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RE: U.S. Strikes Killed Scores of Russia Fighters in Syria, Sources Say
(02-13-2018 05:07 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Here's my concern. By getting rid of ISIS, we have removed the only obstacle to Iran's gaining a foothold all the way through Iraq and Syria to the Mediterranean. If their goal is to re-establish the ancient Persian Empire as a modern, nuclear-armed country, we have just made their task about 10 times easier. I don't see that as being in our best interests.

Damned if we do damned if we don't. One battle at a time I guess....
02-14-2018 03:59 PM
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RE: U.S. Strikes Killed Scores of Russia Fighters in Syria, Sources Say
(02-14-2018 01:35 PM)Lush Wrote:  am i the only one that thinks a nuclear iran is a rather benign entity? it's probably the safest place for a westerner to visit in the middle east these days. that speaks volumes to me

A nuclear Iran can do the everything that a non-nuclear Iran does, but completely without fear of retribution.

Just like a nuclear Iraq could have done everything that Saddam Hussein did, but completely without fear of retribution.

Both should be feared. Iran is not currently a benign entity. It is encircling the Sunni Arab states and Israel, and that has contributed to nearly all of violence in Arab states (including Iraq) in the wake of the 2003 US invasion of Iraq. Iran was behind much of the Shia uprising against US troops in Iraq, along with the the Shia-Sunni conflict that smoldered for years. It emboldened the Shia leaders of Iraq to repress the Sunni to make it ripe for plunder by ISIS, and its ally in Bashar al Assad contributed to the rise of ISIS as a distinct entity.

With nuclear arms, you'd have all of that plus more Iranian troops abroad, and (likely) deeper pockets.

Where I'd be sympathetic with you is whether a (unified) Nuclear Korea would be benign. If you gave the North the economic power of South Korea, nukes would provide territorial integrity and security, and I think that is what Koreans value as much as anything else. Korea is not going to expand anywhere, and a stable Korea is probably the greatest component to keeping peace in the Pacific.
02-15-2018 07:32 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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RE: U.S. Strikes Killed Scores of Russia Fighters in Syria, Sources Say
(02-14-2018 01:35 PM)Lush Wrote:  am i the only one that thinks a nuclear iran is a rather benign entity?

A NON-nuclear Iran is not a benign entity. Nukes would only make it worse.
02-15-2018 07:53 PM
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I45owl Offline
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RE: U.S. Strikes Killed Scores of Russia Fighters in Syria, Sources Say
(02-14-2018 03:52 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  Either supporting a reported Qatar, Saudi backed pipeline not the Russian one. Or just doing what the CIA wants to do. Here is a CIA doc from 83'.
https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/...0133-0.pdf

Interesting document ... I'd love to see a similar assessment of today's environment from the CIA. But, I suspect that history will show that there is a wide, wide gap between the policy of today and what the CIA might be recommending. Things are much more complicated today, and Qatar stands as both an important US ally and an irritant - supporting groups like ISIS and undermining the Saudis, who are also unreliable allies of the US.

Destroying every pipeline that went through Turkey and the Ukraine might not even be a bad thing... it would hurt Europe, but the US stands ready to export more natural gas to Europe if necessary, though it probably couldn't make up for lost supply through pipelines. We could weaken Turkey, Russia, and Qatar all at the same time, weighed in the balance of hurting Europe. It's an interesting thought, but unlikely.
02-15-2018 08:09 PM
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SuperFlyBCat Offline
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RE: U.S. Strikes Killed Scores of Russia Fighters in Syria, Sources Say
(02-15-2018 08:09 PM)I45owl Wrote:  
(02-14-2018 03:52 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  Either supporting a reported Qatar, Saudi backed pipeline not the Russian one. Or just doing what the CIA wants to do. Here is a CIA doc from 83'.
https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/...0133-0.pdf

Interesting document ... I'd love to see a similar assessment of today's environment from the CIA. But, I suspect that history will show that there is a wide, wide gap between the policy of today and what the CIA might be recommending. Things are much more complicated today, and Qatar stands as both an important US ally and an irritant - supporting groups like ISIS and undermining the Saudis, who are also unreliable allies of the US.

Destroying every pipeline that went through Turkey and the Ukraine might not even be a bad thing... it would hurt Europe, but the US stands ready to export more natural gas to Europe if necessary, though it probably couldn't make up for lost supply through pipelines. We could weaken Turkey, Russia, and Qatar all at the same time, weighed in the balance of hurting Europe. It's an interesting thought, but unlikely.

It is USA/UK/France/Saudis/Qatar (who got slapped) vs. Iran/Russia/Assad Syria.
02-15-2018 08:19 PM
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