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Some thoughts/suggestions on school safety
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miko33 Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Some thoughts/suggestions on school safety
https://twitter.com/WJXTvic/status/963899957559390210

As you can see in the title "Everyone Predicted It". Evidently, the true problem was the kid was mentally disturbed and need his guns taken away from him. Would that have prevented the massacre? Don't know because he may have gotten more firearms illegally. However, it would have made it more difficult and it may have been flagged if he attempted to buy more firearms.
02-15-2018 10:24 AM
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BobcatEngineer Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Some thoughts/suggestions on school safety
(02-15-2018 10:07 AM)miko33 Wrote:  
(02-15-2018 09:26 AM)49RFootballNow Wrote:  These kind of things didn't happen with the same frequency in the 50's, 60's and 70's in these numbers and arguably the civilian availability of high capacity firearms was much greater then than now.

The problem is that people have changed.

Everybody with a death wish now wants to go out as a star and we have a media willing to turn them into celebrities with the 24 hour news cycle.

The basic moral fiber of our society is falling apart and until we address that anything else (like more gun control) is like putting a bandage on cancer.

Elephant in the room time: The primary root cause of school shootings (IMHO) is social media. As you point out, people want to go out in a blaze of glory, so what better way than to broadcast yourself via social media so that the world can connect the dots...

You would be better off having smart phone detectors at each entrance of the school and force all kids to give up their phones until the end of school. IMHO, that action would do more good than trying to dialogue about how it's wrong to shoot up your school (of course everyone knows that!).

Canada, the UK, and Australia all have the same social media yet don't experience the same frequency of school shootings.
02-15-2018 10:45 AM
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stinkfist Online
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Post: #23
RE: Some thoughts/suggestions on school safety
(02-15-2018 09:21 AM)CG_Hawk06 Wrote:  
(02-15-2018 09:12 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  
(02-15-2018 09:02 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  One of the first things we can do is start holding people responsible who did not take action on these monsters using existing means. With this case in Florida both the school system and the mental health professional Cruz had been seeing bear responsibility.

I wonder though, does this lead to false positive reports? If I am mental health care professional I'm not going to take any chances purely out of self-preservation.

I don't like the idea of sanitariums full of people who did nothing but send an angry tweet. And that is exactly what a program like that would devolve too.

Furthering that point, it would be a feasting ground for folks who don't like another's political opinions to just report them as mentally unfit and in need of further gov't controlling. Insert 1930s Germany and/or 1940s+ Soviet Union here... "Off to the gulags!!!"

to both you and LS, it's XACLY! why you can't do that....

ya gotta think it through.....

we already have enough 'pandoras' roaming....
02-15-2018 10:47 AM
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49RFootballNow Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Some thoughts/suggestions on school safety
(02-15-2018 10:45 AM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  
(02-15-2018 10:07 AM)miko33 Wrote:  
(02-15-2018 09:26 AM)49RFootballNow Wrote:  These kind of things didn't happen with the same frequency in the 50's, 60's and 70's in these numbers and arguably the civilian availability of high capacity firearms was much greater then than now.

The problem is that people have changed.

Everybody with a death wish now wants to go out as a star and we have a media willing to turn them into celebrities with the 24 hour news cycle.

The basic moral fiber of our society is falling apart and until we address that anything else (like more gun control) is like putting a bandage on cancer.

Elephant in the room time: The primary root cause of school shootings (IMHO) is social media. As you point out, people want to go out in a blaze of glory, so what better way than to broadcast yourself via social media so that the world can connect the dots...

You would be better off having smart phone detectors at each entrance of the school and force all kids to give up their phones until the end of school. IMHO, that action would do more good than trying to dialogue about how it's wrong to shoot up your school (of course everyone knows that!).

Canada, the UK, and Australia all have the same social media yet don't experience the same frequency of school shootings.

Which says there's something wrong with how parents and educators are dealing with our children. I'm sure if those same places still had gun rights they would still have significantly lower school shootings per capita. The problem is lack of respect for each other and lack of morals. Gun violence is a symptom of the disease, not the disease itself.
(This post was last modified: 02-15-2018 10:50 AM by 49RFootballNow.)
02-15-2018 10:49 AM
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Lord Stanley Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Some thoughts/suggestions on school safety
(02-15-2018 10:45 AM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  Canada, the UK, and Australia all have the same social media yet don't experience the same frequency of school shootings.

But still have stabbings, bullying, fighting and other teenage strife.

So, what is the missing piece? It's firearms. Are you for full the repeal of the Second Amendment and the forced confiscation of firearms from American citizens?

Y/N?
02-15-2018 10:50 AM
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Old Dominion Online
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Post: #26
RE: Some thoughts/suggestions on school safety
(02-15-2018 10:50 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  
(02-15-2018 10:45 AM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  Canada, the UK, and Australia all have the same social media yet don't experience the same frequency of school shootings.

But still have stabbings, bullying, fighting and other teenage strife.

So, what is the missing piece? It's firearms. Are you for full the repeal of the Second Amendment and the forced confiscation of firearms from American citizens?

Y/N?

You are assuming there are no firearms in those countries. We don't know that, but we can reasonably assume there are not many assault rifles floating around.
Again why go all the way to repealing the 2nd amendment. Nobody is talking about that. That's a knee jerk reaction and it's not very productive.
02-15-2018 10:56 AM
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Post: #27
RE: Some thoughts/suggestions on school safety
We don't/can't police, prosecute and detain people for violating the gun laws that already exist. How are we going to do it when we add new laws and make the current laws more restrictive?

In addition, stricter gun law violations are going to hit the poor and minorities the worst. Democrats already believe the system is rigged against these people as it stands, how's it going to look when even more of them go to jail on weapons charges?
02-15-2018 10:56 AM
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Lord Stanley Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Some thoughts/suggestions on school safety
(02-15-2018 09:32 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  It would take a failure of both the mental health and multiple failures of the judicial system for there to be a false report. Even if you got an anti-gun doctor and an anti-gun judge chances are the scheme would be detected as you navigated the appeal process, further evaluations, etc. At that point if you determine an agenda driven diagnosis you start stripping the medical and legal professionals of their career licensing and you explore what avenues the civil court process would give you for redress.

Considering what we know about mental health prognosis and the judicial system do we truly have confidence that this is something that can be administered fairly?

I'm sorry, but today I do not have that confidence. I would fully expect that the there would be large swaths of mental health professionals quickly willing to write a report on someone who makes them uncomfortable (maybe it's their political leaning or something that the professional is biased against) and sending it to a court eager to prove how pro-gun control they are. Prosecutors and judges are elected, and one shooter not imprisoned is electoral suicide.

It's ripe - if not guaranteed - for abuse. Supporting the gun control narrative is more important than the moral, intellectual and logical consistency needed to administer and aggressive mental health confinement program.

Damn, I just so jaded about this.
02-15-2018 11:01 AM
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Lord Stanley Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Some thoughts/suggestions on school safety
(02-15-2018 10:56 AM)Old Dominion Wrote:  Again why go all the way to repealing the 2nd amendment. Nobody is talking about that. That's a knee jerk reaction and it's not very productive.

I get it, I get it. “Stuff the hopes and prayers! We need to dooooooooo something!”

Then by all means let’s make more gun laws so bureaucrats of the same ilk can enact them as efficiently as history has shown them not able to do.
02-15-2018 11:03 AM
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tigergreen Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Some thoughts/suggestions on school safety
(02-15-2018 10:13 AM)miko33 Wrote:  If you are going to go the gun control route, then it has to be highly targeted. Just spit balling here, but if people are out there publicly posing with firearms and talking about shooting up a school, movie theater, etc...then that person needs to be given a compulsory psych exam and put on a temporary gun ban list pending the results of thorough psychiatric evaluations.

Of course this avenue is ripe for abuse. But we already know that the genie of social media and 24/7/365 news coverage is out of the bottle and we won't be able to go back.

Why anyone would be against this is beyond me.
02-15-2018 11:09 AM
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Lord Stanley Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Some thoughts/suggestions on school safety
(02-15-2018 11:09 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  Why anyone would be against this is beyond me.

You willing to put your kids through this when they get mad and say something emotional? You willing to have your kid go through an aggressive mental health exam at the threat of confinement?

All over words?
02-15-2018 11:13 AM
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tigergreen Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Some thoughts/suggestions on school safety
(02-15-2018 11:13 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  
(02-15-2018 11:09 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  Why anyone would be against this is beyond me.

You willing to put your kids through this when they get mad and say something emotional? You willing to have your kid go through an aggressive mental health exam at the threat of confinement?

All over words?

Re-read the post: highly targeted.

If my kid is holding a gun on social media and talking about shooting up a school/other public area, you damn well better believe I'd like him to have his mental health evaluated. NOT having him evaluated is flat-out blinders-on stupidity.
02-15-2018 11:17 AM
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SuperFlyBCat Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Some thoughts/suggestions on school safety
Armed security at schools, and all bags, back packs are checked just like at Airports and court houses. A perp can still shoot up the checkpoint area though.
02-15-2018 11:22 AM
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Lord Stanley Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Some thoughts/suggestions on school safety
(02-15-2018 11:17 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  Re-read the post: highly targeted.

If my kid is holding a gun on social media and talking about shooting up a school/other public area, you damn well better believe I'd like him to have his mental health evaluated. NOT having him evaluated is flat-out blinders-on stupidity.

I always read carefully. So you are able to ID some specific set of circumstances that will demand this mental health evaluation, that seems fair and a logical first step.

Please, number out for us how the rest of the law would work. If there is a legal solution it needs parameters.

What is the baseline? Is it a picture with specific text? Is it text, but no pictures? Is it picture, but no text? All three? Does it have to be numerous, or just one example? Who is the decider that the message is threatening? How detailed is the mental health evaluation? Is the goal incarceration? Rehabilitation? Be exact. I am curious.

You want a solution, help us all define it.
02-15-2018 11:26 AM
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BobcatEngineer Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Some thoughts/suggestions on school safety
(02-15-2018 11:22 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  Armed security at schools, and all bags, back packs are checked just like at Airports and court houses. A perp can still shoot up the checkpoint area though.

Who's going to pay for the armed security guards?

My old high school can't afford printer ink and paper let alone the salary of an armed guard and the proper screening equipment required.
02-15-2018 11:29 AM
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tigergreen Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Some thoughts/suggestions on school safety
(02-15-2018 11:26 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  
(02-15-2018 11:17 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  Re-read the post: highly targeted.

If my kid is holding a gun on social media and talking about shooting up a school/other public area, you damn well better believe I'd like him to have his mental health evaluated. NOT having him evaluated is flat-out blinders-on stupidity.

I always read carefully. So you are able to ID some specific set of circumstances that will demand this mental health evaluation, that seems fair and a logical first step.

Please, number out for us how the rest of the law would work. If there is a legal solution it needs parameters.

What is the baseline? Is it a picture with specific text? Is it text, but no pictures? Is it picture, but no text? All three? Does it have to be numerous, or just one example? Who is the decider that the message is threatening? How detailed is the mental health evaluation? Is the goal incarceration? Rehabilitation? Be exact. I am curious.

You want a solution, help us all define it.

Parameters get defined the same way any law's parameter's get defined - quit being disingenuous. Pics, text, pics & text, the combo doesn't matter - looking back, Cruz's social media was a clear red flag.

You clearly don't want any laws to change, so tell me - how would YOU keep this from happening? Or do you just consider innocent kids dying in school "the price of freedom?"
(This post was last modified: 02-15-2018 11:37 AM by tigergreen.)
02-15-2018 11:32 AM
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SuperFlyBCat Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Some thoughts/suggestions on school safety
(02-15-2018 11:29 AM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  
(02-15-2018 11:22 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  Armed security at schools, and all bags, back packs are checked just like at Airports and court houses. A perp can still shoot up the checkpoint area though.

Who's going to pay for the armed security guards?

My old high school can't afford printer ink and paper let alone the salary of an armed guard and the proper screening equipment required.

It is up to the school system to figure that out. How do you know about your former HS finances? What is the name of the school and city.
02-15-2018 11:32 AM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Some thoughts/suggestions on school safety
(02-15-2018 11:01 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  
(02-15-2018 09:32 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  It would take a failure of both the mental health and multiple failures of the judicial system for there to be a false report. Even if you got an anti-gun doctor and an anti-gun judge chances are the scheme would be detected as you navigated the appeal process, further evaluations, etc. At that point if you determine an agenda driven diagnosis you start stripping the medical and legal professionals of their career licensing and you explore what avenues the civil court process would give you for redress.

Considering what we know about mental health prognosis and the judicial system do we truly have confidence that this is something that can be administered fairly?

I'm sorry, but today I do not have that confidence. I would fully expect that the there would be large swaths of mental health professionals quickly willing to write a report on someone who makes them uncomfortable (maybe it's their political leaning or something that the professional is biased against) and sending it to a court eager to prove how pro-gun control they are. Prosecutors and judges are elected, and one shooter not imprisoned is electoral suicide.

It's ripe - if not guaranteed - for abuse. Supporting the gun control narrative is more important than the moral, intellectual and logical consistency needed to administer and aggressive mental health confinement program.

Damn, I just so jaded about this.

At first I fully expect there to be egregious violations, especially on the mental healthcare side. I expect the problems, both the individual case and the overall system, to be corrected as cases work their way through the legal system. Like I mentioned, start stripping the abusers of their licenses and people will stop abusing their positions to advance a political agenda and stick to the law.
02-15-2018 11:34 AM
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Old Dominion Online
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Post: #39
RE: Some thoughts/suggestions on school safety
(02-15-2018 11:32 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(02-15-2018 11:29 AM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  
(02-15-2018 11:22 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  Armed security at schools, and all bags, back packs are checked just like at Airports and court houses. A perp can still shoot up the checkpoint area though.

Who's going to pay for the armed security guards?

My old high school can't afford printer ink and paper let alone the salary of an armed guard and the proper screening equipment required.

It is up to the school system to figure that out.
How do you know about your former HS finances? What is the name of the school and city.

The problem in a nut shell. It's always somebody else's job to solve the problem. All I have to do is sit back and ***** and criticize everything proposed.
Absolutely no sense of personal responsibility.
02-15-2018 11:35 AM
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SuperFlyBCat Offline
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Post: #40
RE: Some thoughts/suggestions on school safety
(02-15-2018 11:35 AM)Old Dominion Wrote:  
(02-15-2018 11:32 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(02-15-2018 11:29 AM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  
(02-15-2018 11:22 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  Armed security at schools, and all bags, back packs are checked just like at Airports and court houses. A perp can still shoot up the checkpoint area though.

Who's going to pay for the armed security guards?

My old high school can't afford printer ink and paper let alone the salary of an armed guard and the proper screening equipment required.

It is up to the school system to figure that out.
How do you know about your former HS finances? What is the name of the school and city.

The problem in a nut shell. It's always somebody else's job to solve the problem. All I have to do is sit back and ***** and criticize everything proposed.
Absolutely no sense of personal responsibility.

No it isn't somebody else's job, it it the school system. You have it backwards.
02-15-2018 11:37 AM
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